[2014 Mid-Year Tests] France

[racingmetro92]

They arrived yesterday in Brisbane and made a little training today.

I'd really like to see Le Bourhis for the first game. I'm sure he can be a good alternative to Fofana and Mermoz, alongside Fickou

 

[Big Ewis]

well since you're a Racing fan, I'd like to extend my appreciation for Chavancy at midfield and was hoping we could see what he's worth at test level, but as you know the center position must be the deepest in France along with winger...and there's just no way with Fofana a lock at 12, Bastareaud at minimum on the bench, Fritz who just got pushed out of the rotation because of politics with Toulouse (using too many toulousains), Fickou is just around the corner, and now Lamerat who's my new "chouchou" and an *amazing* center in the making and even Le Bourhis as you say who's been picked to play in Australia...that's without Mermoz, a long time regular who's had a very nice season with Europe's best in the Var, Yann David who's a premier center but hasn't been on form, and a few other worthy ones I can't recall atm...

 

[racingmetro92]

Yes, i'd like to see Chavancy with the XV de France, even if there are all the players you said and maybe others (right now i think to Jonathan Danty for the post-World Cup). This is one our biggest problem, we have lots of (very) good players at some position like center position or scrum-half (with Parra, Machenaud, Pélissié, Tillous-Borde, Dupuy, ... but not Doussain ). Meanwhile, on tge front row we dont have so many players

For the 1st training session we have :

1-Domingo
2-Guirado
3-Slimani
4-Flanquart
5-Vahaamahina
6-Ouedraogo
7-Dusautoir
8-Chouly
9-Machenaud
10-Parra
11-Le Bourhis
12-Fofana
13-Fickou
14-Médard
15-Bonneval

Parra is back as a fly-half, like in the last WC

 

[Big Ewis]

Funny, I thought about Danty about 10min after posting that comment. Definitely a HUGE prospect for us, the guy is far from just being a fat black guy who can run (bearing resemblance in description to any existing player is just coincidental...). The guy can really pass, really read situations, use his feet...AND he's a big boy.

TIGHTHEADS IN FRANCE:
And don't get me started on the front row, well tighthead specifically. How do you want our local guys to develop when the Top 14 buys foreign props systematically: they're already trained, and big (Georgia, Pacific Islands) so they just pick them. Can you believe we've only got Mas who's a true legit world class French tighthead worthy of that function ? I mean I like Slimani a lot, but he's some Parisian, Algerian-born dude. We can't even produce ONE other legit, true Southwestern French tighthead prop ?? Everybody in France is counting on and praising Clément Ric from Clermont, and honestly he ain't all that.
Where the HELL are all the rugged French Southwestern tightheads ???
We should have 3 or 4 legit options there. Ducalcon ? Ric, haha ?
France has clearly a tighthead crisis atm, there's no chance to even try debating against that. And it's most definitely all thanks to the foreigners, and ultimately, it's all because of money.

Doussain's really good man, you haven't watched him enough and he's irregular as hell. Check him out closely next year.

Yeah I read that article with that XV they mention. That XV is very close to a France B squad, I certainly hope we don't play THAT. Yes I know guys are missing, but this looks quite mediocre...

 

[TheSaffycen]

In fairness tighthead is a position which EVERY country has problems with. Even the great south Africa and Argentina, look past Du Plessis and Figallo and the options aren't bad but they're not fantastic at the moment. England have Cole and Wilson, Cole hasn't been at his best for a little while. So I don't think that it's because the Top 14 are buying so many foreign props, though it doesn't help, I just think its a position where once someone is established they don't look at other options, it's too important a position, so it does take a young guy 3 or 4 seasons to get the game time and experience too become world class. If you see Kyle Sinkler(will be playing against the BaaBaa's) he is already a good tighthead, but that's because Harlequins had nobody else and he has managed to get game time which is all young guys need. That's just my opinion so **** knows if i'm right

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Post deleted

 

[Big Ewis]

yeah Saffy, but that still doesn't change what I posted previously. Can you imagine Nicolas Mas is the only guy of his kind; i.e. the rugged French prop with that typical Southwestern rugby culture and rhino-type physical profile ? Where are the Marconet, Crenca, Christian Califano, Olivier Milloud, J.B. Poux...?

As for England, yeah it's not a fantastic generation for tightheads, but otherwise I don't know why there are so few either. Do you guys have that many foreigners at that position ? I bet you've got a bunch of Georgians and Pacific Islanders too, heck I know a few in the Prem.

So I'm saying it's an isolated reality. Knowing SA or England are in dire need of quality TH's too doesn't make it less bad for France, it's entirely separate. France don't have tightheads because of a very specific problem in the Top 14. Tightheads (of quality) have always been the most scarce of all positions.

 

[FrenchFan]

the many rugged southereners are playing in ProD2. There's quite a few promising young French props playing in ProD2 who can't get a contract with a Top14 club. But they're showing more potential than some of the foreign dross acting as a prop who turn out poor scrummagers. Untap potential. We like scrums in Top14 and if you're an average technicians from overseas you're going to get exposed...our home-grown props are better technician than many of those imports. Do you think PSA and his pieds nickelés watch ProD2 games? of course they don't.

 

[Big Ewis]

well, I don't either, so I have no clue whatsoever about the quality of props there...
But it's true, technically speaking I do believe France are the best. As just one example you look at a guy like Thomas Domingo who's 1 meter tall and gives away loads of height, muscle, physical strength on absolutely every tighthead he's up against, and he still gets the better of them and was considered the best LH during a few stretches, and was called the best scrummager world wide by some. Mas isn't huge either (roughly 1m80, 110kg), and he's DESTROYED his fair share of opponents in the scrum.
We constantly lack muscle and size in the scrum, not to mention I've never seen France with a heavier pack stat over any team when they show the stats at scrum time, and yet...

I long for the next true French tighthead, although Slimani is pretty damn good for his age at tighthead already...but who as second choice when Mas steps down ?..

 

[big ginger 8]

That's because a lack of height is often quite useful in propping.

 

[Big Ewis]

That's because a lack of height is often quite useful in propping.

that can't be a correct statement. If you mean giving away a few cm's relatively to the direct opposing scrummager, it's one of the aspects that tends to work, it's true. But if you're saying, generally, being short is beneficial in scrummaging, then no. Domingo's scrummaging works because he's a little cube. Thick as he's high, wide as he's tall. That physiological density allows him, along with unique technique in world Rugby, to beat the crap out of opposing tightheads, no matter how much huger (well, back before the rule change...).

In absolute terms, I'd say a physique like Nicolas Mas/Rodrigo Roncero is the virtual paradigm for the tighthead position, and in regards to scrummaging.
Much bigger guys like Phil Vickery work too if they have the control, but by default that's my conclusion so far. Of course, this needs to be re-evaluated with the new rules...as guys like Mike Ross or Geoff Cross, or Vincent Debaty on the left side all of a sudden are master scrummagers

 

[big ginger 8]

that can't be a correct statement. If you mean giving away a few cm's relatively to the direct opposing scrummager, it's one of the aspects that tends to work, it's true. But if you're saying, generally, being short is beneficial in scrummaging, then no. Domingo's scrummaging works because he's a little cube. Thick as he's high, wide as he's tall. That physiological density allows him, along with unique technique in world Rugby, to beat the crap out of opposing tightheads, no matter how much huger (well, back before the rule change...).

In absolute terms, I'd say a physique like Nicolas Mas/Rodrigo Roncero is the virtual paradigm for the tighthead position, and in regards to scrummaging.
Much bigger guys like Phil Vickery work too if they have the control, but by default that's my conclusion so far. Of course, this needs to be re-evaluated with the new rules...as guys like Mike Ross or Geoff Cross, or Vincent Debaty on the left side all of a sudden are master scrummagers

Well of course it's a given that they're heavy but being shorter than the average rugby player (which is still usually around the European average) can be quite handy. When someone, particulary the tighthead, is driven back you'll notice their back buckle. Being shorter generally means have a shorter back which is easier to keep straight which allows you to exert maximum force. So that's obviously beneficial for both sides. Then specifically for looseheads much of their technique is based around "getting under" the tighthead. This is obviously much easier if you're that bit shorter. You're just naturally closer to the ground. I should know I'm a "short" prop (1.80m).

With your last comment by left side I'm presuming you mean left side of the scrum? That's the loosehead side. Mike Ross doesn't play on that side and neither does Geoff Cross....the "minimum" weight for a tighthead is about 10kg more than a loosehead and that's why they're generally that bit taller so they can carry the weight. Ross is a self proclaimed scrum nerd and has always been quite a good scrummager, he actually struggled a lot more than usual this year with the new laws until around the 6N. Cross isn't particulary noteworthy scrummmager imo, he has his good days like most props but nothing special. Debaty does seem improved with the new laws but his level wasn't exactly at a high level before, it could just be the natural progression that come with experience for props. Also it does help playing in two very strong scrummaging sides.

 

[Big Ewis]

yeah yeah, we agree on all that.

No you read my last bit wrong: I put a coma after "Mike Ross or Geoff Cross" as to mark a separation in the sentence from Vincent Debaty (who plays on the left)...
You say 1m80 is considered "short". That sounds a bit surprising.

I mentioned Cross because Scotland were beating France heftily in the scrum last March, which is quite hilarious...they even asked for a scrum after a penalty. I mean, Scotland asking for a scrum against France :lol:
Laws have changed quite a few things, ay...

 

[TheSaffycen]

that can't be a correct statement. If you mean giving away a few cm's relatively to the direct opposing scrummager, it's one of the aspects that tends to work, it's true. But if you're saying, generally, being short is beneficial in scrummaging, then no. Domingo's scrummaging works because he's a little cube. Thick as he's high, wide as he's tall

Yep it helps a lot, I played tighthead prop and I am 187cm/ 6 ft 2 whichever one you're use too, the shorter stocky guys where always a bloody annoyance and I found them the most difficult. This will sound like i'm being an arrogant prick but I always thought I was a pretty good scrummager and rarely came off the worse but the small guys, as big 8 said, have a smaller back and when you get stable they just seem to have the push on immediately and it is hard to then get them going backwards. By the way this was under the law with 'the hit' so I don't know about the newest law, anyway talking about best loosehead and tightheads- John Afoa is brilliant and dropping his hips and dominating his opponent, he's 1.83 tall, Andrew Sheridan was an English and Lions loosehead at 1.95 tall. Scrummaging is 100% down to technique, a technique that the Argentinians and the French have perfected.
Also to EWIS I know you didn't play rugby so this might seem patronising but it isn't intended to be, but the Scotland game vs France the scrum results from that game should be thrown in the bin. The pitch they where playing on would hamper ANY props Jones, Healy, Corbisiero, Figallo anyone even South Africa.I have played on pitches worst than that and you can't put your feet back as they slip and the ref just gives a penalty against you, someone like Domingo was always going to be ****ed and someone like Debaty who's technique is not as good will thrive. The power from the scrum is not given by the props it's given by the locks mainly then the back row adds a bit on top, I wouldn't be surprised if Scotland's scrum was actually bigger than France's and on that pitch size was going to take over; as the pitch breaks up it just turns into who has the most MASS.

 

[big ginger 8]

yeah yeah, we agree on all that.

No you read my last bit wrong: I put a coma after "Mike Ross or Geoff Cross" as to mark a separation in the sentence from Vincent Debaty (who plays on the left)...
You say 1m80 is considered "short". That sounds a bit surprising.

I mentioned Cross because Scotland were beating France heftily in the scrum last March, which is quite hilarious...they even asked for a scrum after a penalty. I mean, Scotland asking for a scrum against France :lol:
Laws have changed quite a few things, ay...

In rugby it's short, particulary in the pack. With all the big new centres and wings the average height of most professional teams is probably over 6' at the least.

 

[Big Ewis]

when did you find the time to write all this ?! Your team is playing for the fuccking Prem trophy !!!
I understand and know everything you're saying in the first paragraph.

It's not patronizing, but I do also know and agree with your second paragraph. There's just one thing though. What you're saying about slippery surfaces is true, and if your scrum loses grip, it'll often come down to the bigger pack taking over, as weight's importance increases sevenfold.
The thing I disagree with is that we should entirely throw those results away, as France was clearly on a slippery slope (pun unintended) the whole tournament in that domain: they started off very well against England, but then, we struggled against Italy a little in some scrums, struggled in Wales, in Scotland, and then even against Ireland, all sides we would NEVER struggle against (except Wales a bit). Being on the backpedal in Scotland was still a surprise, but not shocking, and certainly a true symptom at work, and couldn't be brushed off as just a bad pitch affair.

ginger: forgot to say. Vincent Debaty has been a prop for years, the guy is 32 years old, and he was nowhere near being a great scrummager before. He obviously didn't work up his technique in 7 months, all of a sudden, at 32. It really is the rule change for sure, and I'm no prop or anything, but I do definitely notice the following change in the scrum: bigger guys are becoming more effective than before, and the smaller technical guys seem to struggle more.

 

[big ginger 8]

when did you find the time to write all this ?! Your team is playing for the fuccking Prem trophy !!!
I understand and know everything you're saying in the first paragraph.

It's not patronizing, but I do also know and agree with your second paragraph. There's just one thing though. What you're saying about slippery surfaces is true, and if your scrum loses grip, it'll often come down to the bigger pack taking over, as weight's importance increases sevenfold.
The thing I disagree with is that we should entirely throw those results away, as France was clearly on a slippery slope (pun unintended) the whole tournament in that domain: they started off very well against England, but then, we struggled against Italy a little in some scrums, struggled in Wales, in Scotland, and then even against Ireland, all sides we would NEVER struggle against (except Wales a bit). Being on the backpedal in Scotland was still a surprise, but not shocking, and certainly a true symptom at work, and couldn't be brushed off as just a bad pitch affair.

ginger: forgot to say. Vincent Debaty has been a prop for years, the guy is 32 years old, and he was nowhere near being a great scrummager before. He obviously didn't work up his technique in 7 months, all of a sudden, at 32. It really is the rule change for sure, and I'm no prop or anything, but I do definitely notice the following change in the scrum: bigger guys are becoming more effective than before, and the smaller technical guys seem to struggle more.

It has helped some people like Debaty but it's certainly not a huge consensus like you're suggesting especially with one legit example. It's easier for guys who are more strong than powerful yes and bigger guys are usually stronger but plenty of short guys are still doing well. As always the technicians are still doing the best. What I've noticed is that it's really allowing the locks to have more of an impact than ever and that's a big reason why Argentina have made a big resurgence in the scrum as their technique is to provide a platform for the locks to push through.

 

[Big Ewis]

yeah the Pumas have that technique that emphasizes on perfect timing. All of the tight 5 goes in, in perfect synchronization. But how could you say the "technicians" or more technical scrummagers are still doing well, or even "the best" when clearly that's exactly what Mas and Domingo in particular are and have been possibly the two guys who've struggled the most in all of world Rugby ?
Give me one good example of a smaller, technical guy who's still doing well.

 

[big ginger 8]

yeah the Pumas have that technique that emphasizes on perfect timing. But how could you say the "technicians" or more technical scrummagers are still doing well, or even "the best" when clearly that's exactly what Mas and Domingo in particular are and have been possibly the two guys who've struggled the most in all of world Rugby ?
Give me one good example of a smaller, technical guy who's still doing well.

Mas and Domingo have done quite well at times and I think you're really exaggerating on them.

Marty Moore, Cian Healy (when you're using the term "sort" like I am), Jack McGrath, BJ Botha, Rodney Ah You

In Ireland alone. If you think I'm pushing it with 6'2" fair enough I guess although it is for rugby really and nearly all are under it.

 

[racingmetro92]

We can't even produce ONE other legit, true Southwestern French tighthead prop ?? Everybody in France is counting on and praising Clément Ric from Clermont, and honestly he ain't all that.
Where the HELL are all the rugged French Southwestern tightheads ???
We should have 3 or 4 legit options there. Ducalcon ? Ric, haha ?

If the guy comes from Lille or Strasbourg, i dont mind. It's the same thing : he has french blood
Maybe Xavier Chiocci. I dont know if he's a losehead or a tighthead ...

Otherwhise, why not picking foreign players ?? We did it with good players (Claassen, Nakaitaci or Le Roux), but not where we needed it. I mean on the 3rd row, we have Picamoles, Chouly, Lauret, Dusautoir, Ouedraogo, Burban, ... and for the center we already spoke about this.

But you will say me that Chouly comes from Neo Caledonia, Lauret from the Reunion, Dusautoir Ivory Coast and Ouedraogo Burkina Faso