[2014 EOYT] Ireland vs South Africa

[SomeOke]

I thought this past weekends Baa Baas game against the wallabies perfectly illustrated why JdJ is not in the team for the boks. He was 100% anonymous! Did he even start that game, I even watched that game and I'm still not sure. Have you taken a look at his stats of that game? Completely outclassed by those around him, both on his team and his opponents. Him doing ok vs a 2nd string Leicester side in a midweek match is not really an achievement, and I would say that his performance vs that hungry Aus side would be a truer reflection of how he will go at Test level.

JdJ is not big enough for 13. Look at the penetrative brusier that Aus has in Kuridrani, (nz run a bigger inside centre in Nonu/SBW, that said even Snake is 1.86 95kg) but 1.75 88kg is not what you are looking for at 13, not if you want to be the best in the world.

Pet peeve of mine is how arm chair coaches who are not privvy to all the information that the head coach is, cry foul at a nonselection of their favourite player. It is the coach's head on the chopping block and I trust his decision (quota's aside), afterall we are currently performing better than we have for a long long time and deserves our dues.

(@Stormer sorry if it seems like that last bit is directed at you, but it's not - its directed to all the half wit fans on local media, which I have run away from, in hopes of getting into some intelligent conversation)

JDJ was anonymous in the Baa-Baas game in that I agree with you, that said he was playing in an unfamiliar set-up that was emphasizing slinging the ball out wide on most occasions and in any case it was only one game.

JDJ was great for the Stormers at the tail end of Super Rugby and in Currie cup when the Stormers started playing a more expansive game. He by no means had a worse season than de Villiers or Serfontein in super rugby, offers a attacking flair that most of our incumbent centres lack (and by that I mean the ability to beat a man one on one without trying to go through them) and more importantly is an actual out an out 13 when we have 2 inside centres currently starting.

By no means do I think de Villiers or Serfontein are bad players, but in many ways they are similar players and our ability to cut up opposing back lines is limited somewhat by the fact that our centres are likely to run it up predictably.
As for JDJ's size, he is a proven great defender and has been part of a Stormers back line that has been almost impenetrable at times, I have seen him put down big men on multiple occasions he very rarely misses tackles. On top of that did you watch the Aus vs SA games? Because Kuridrani walked through JdV and Serfontein on a number of occasions and I really don't feel size alone is necessarily indicative of the ability to stop big runners, in fact sometimes one can be bounced more easily if you're tall because it allows that player more surface area to bounce you.

Anyway I like Heineke Meyers decisions, you will be hard pressed to find a Saffer left on these forums who doesn't, he's continually made ballsy calls with regards to how we play and who he selects, and as far as I'm concerned whatever happens in the WC he should get another 4 years to mold the side, that doesn't mean his word is gospel and beyond criticism, and considering we are currently playing centres out of position I do feel he has let height bias get in his way of this one particular call. Brian O'Driscoll was no giant

 

[big ginger 8]

Rumours that we're going to see a centre partnership of Henshaw and Payne with Jones in the 23 shirt.

And the English say Lancaster loves fullbacks...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Rumours that we're going to see a centre partnership of Henshaw and Payne with Jones in the 23 shirt.

And the English say Lancaster loves fullbacks...

Surely not! When is the team announced?

 

[big ginger 8]

Surely not! When is the team announced?

Tomorrow, it's from the indo so make of that what you will. Apparently D'arcy had to miss out some sessions with a groin issue and Payne filled in at 12 with Schmidt seeing something he liked.

The mother of all Schmidt curveballs if it happens.

EDIT: South Africa:
15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cornal Hendricks, 13 Jan Serfontein, 12 Jean de Villiers (c), 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Handré Pollard, 9 Francois Hougaard,
8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Tebo Mohoje, 6 Marcell Coetzee, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Replacements: 16 Adriaan Strauss, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 Bakkies Botha, 20 Schalk Burger, 21 Cobus Reinach, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 JP Pietersen.

So the same team that beat New Zealand against our probable mishmash team of debutants, half-fit players and starters. We totally got this.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The Springbok team to face Ireland in Dublin is:
15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cornal Hendricks, 13 Jan Serfontein, 12 Jean de Villiers, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Handré Pollard, 9 Francois Hougaard, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Teboho "Oupa" Mohoje, 6 Marcell Coetzee, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Adriaan Strauss, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 Bakkies Botha, 20 Schalk Burger, 21 Cobus Reinach, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 JP Pietersen

Stats and facts:
• The Springbok starting team boasts a total of 672 Test caps (289 in the backline and 383 in the forwards), while there are a further 316 caps worth of experience on the bench.
• South Africa and Ireland have played each other 21 times since 1906, with the Springboks winning 16 Tests, losing four and one was drawn. The Springboks have scored 417 points and 60 tries and conceded 248 points and 24 tries for an average score of 20-12.
• South Africa and Ireland last met on 10 November 2012 at the Aviva Stadium in Dublin. The Springboks won 16-12.
• Jean de Villiers will extend his record as the most-capped Springbok centre, with 87 Tests in this position and will captain South Africa for the 31st time, placing him third behind John Smit (83) and Gary Teichmann (36).
• Victor Matfield will extend his own record as the most capped Springbok in history (117 Tests). He will also extend his record of 117 Tests as a lock and will also extend his record as the oldest Springbok ever at 37 years & 146 days.
• Bryan Habana will extend his record as the most-capped Springbok wing, with 102 Tests in this position. If he scores a try, he will extend his record of 56 Test tries for South Africa.
• If he scores a try Bismarck du Plessis will extend his record of nine Test tries for South Africa as a hooker. Bismarck and his older brother Jannie will extend their record of playing together in 40 Tests for the Springboks. Bismarck, Jannie and Tendai Mtawarira will also extend their record of 15 tests in the starting line-up as a front-row trio for South Africa.
• If he goes on as a flank, Schalk Burger will extend his own record as the most-capped Springbok flanker in history (71 caps). If he goes on as a flank and scores a try, he will become the sole record-holder for most Test tries as a flanker (11), a record he currently shares with Juan Smith.
• Willie le Roux, Cornal Hendricks, Duane Vermeulen, Jannie du Plessis and Bismarck du Plessis have played in all nine Tests for the Springboks in 2014. Bryan Habana and Tendai Mtawarira have both missed only one Test in 2014.
• Schalk Burger (Jnr) and Cobus Reinach (both on the bench) are sons of former Springboks. Schalk Burger (Snr) played six Tests for South Africa (1984-1986) and the late Jaco Reinach four Tests for South Africa in 1986. They played together in all four Tests against the New Zealand Cavaliers in 1986.
• For Pat Lambie this is a return to the city where he made his Test debut off the bench against Ireland in 2010.
• It will be the third time in history that a Springbok team will have three centurions in the starting line-up. The two previous occasions were against Australia and New Zealand in the Castle Lager Rugby Championship earlier this year.
• Adriaan Strauss played against his cousin Richardt Strauss when the Springboks and Ireland last met in Dublin on 10 November, 2012. They are likely to meet each other again as Richardt is in the Ireland squad for this Test match.
• It will be Heyneke Meyer's 34th Test in charge of the Springboks since he took over in 2012. Of the previous 33 Tests South Africa have won 24, lost seven and drawn twice. His winning percentage of 73% is second only to Kitch Christie's 100% (14 Tests 1994-1995) since 1992.
• The referee is Romain Poite of France. It will be his fifth Test involving South Africa. In previous Tests the Springboks have won three and lost one. His last Test involving South Africa was in June this year against Wales in Durban - a game that the Springboks won 38-16.
Springbok Test match records in Dublin:
Most points – 12 by Percy Montgomery (3c, 2p) against Ireland on 28 November, 1998 and Percy Montgomery again on 13 November, 2004 (4p)
Most tries – three by Jan Stegmann and "Boetie" McHardy against Ireland on 30 November, 1912.
Most conversions – three Gerhard Morkel against Ireland on 30 November, 1912 and by Percy Montgomery against Ireland on 28 November, 1998.
Most penalty goals – four by Percy Montgomery against Ireland on 13 November, 2004
Most drop goals – one by Hannes Brewis against Ireland on 8 December, 1951 and by Morne Steyn against Ireland on 28 November, 2009.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/Bok-starting-line-up-unchanged-20141105

Bokke unchanged. Probably good but how boring! JdV, Le Roux and Hendricks I want to see improvements from. Mohoje and Burger both lucky IMO while our starting props are there only on reputation and because of injury. Hope Etzebeth continues his (slow) upward curve back to 2013 form alongside spring chicken Matfield who only got back in due to a massive injury crisis (and HM not looking at our RM92 pair of locks) but has made the jersey his own again IMO. Hope Hougie and Pollard continue as they left off.

 

[SomeOke]

Bokke unchanged. Probably good but how boring! JdV, Le Roux and Hendricks I want to see improvements from. Mohoje and Burger both lucky IMO while our starting props are there only on reputation and because of injury. Hope Etzebeth continues his (slow) upward curve back to 2013 form alongside spring chicken Matfield who only got back in due to a massive injury crisis (and HM not looking at our RM92 pair of locks) but has made the jersey his own again IMO. Hope Hougie and Pollard continue as they left off.

Yeah one forced change, Marcel van der Merve for Coenie Oosthuizen, I do wish we would stop pretending that Coenie has ever been successful at tight head, probably not an abundance of options though.

Nothing really to talk about which isn't a bad thing I guess we'll have to wait for the game for talking points , I am glad that Reinach has retained his spot after HM brought in Vermaak though, I'd also prefer de Allende to Pietersen on the bench but it's purely because I want to see him given more of a chance, not because he's proven at this level.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I can't complain. I think Oupa is lucky to continue in ahead of Schalk. Not done anything wrong but his workrate and impact not up there for an SA loosie and even if I would've prefered both out and Kriel and Carr in along with chanecs for a guy like De Allende like you mention and Redelinghuys ahead of Jannie etc, lets just try and beat Ireland and England first and get those guys involved against Italy. Irsh poster on here worrying about their scrum needn't worry, between Jannie du Plessis and Coenie Oosthuizen at TH for us I can see many a 3 pointer for Sexton off the scrum.

 

[PiXeL_NiNja]

JDJ was anonymous in the Baa-Baas game in that I agree with you, that said he was playing in an unfamiliar set-up that was emphasizing slinging the ball out wide on most occasions and in any case it was only one game.

JDJ was great for the Stormers at the tail end of Super Rugby and in Currie cup when the Stormers started playing a more expansive game. He by no means had a worse season than de Villiers or Serfontein in super rugby, offers a attacking flair that most of our incumbent centres lack (and by that I mean the ability to beat a man one on one without trying to go through them) and more importantly is an actual out an out 13 when we have 2 inside centres currently starting.

By no means do I think de Villiers or Serfontein are bad players, but in many ways they are similar players and our ability to cut up opposing back lines is limited somewhat by the fact that our centres are likely to run it up predictably.
As for JDJ's size, he is a proven great defender and has been part of a Stormers back line that has been almost impenetrable at times, I have seen him put down big men on multiple occasions he very rarely misses tackles. On top of that did you watch the Aus vs SA games? Because Kuridrani walked through JdV and Serfontein on a number of occasions and I really don't feel size alone is necessarily indicative of the ability to stop big runners, in fact sometimes one can be bounced more easily if you're tall because it allows that player more surface area to bounce you.

Anyway I like Heineke Meyers decisions, you will be hard pressed to find a Saffer left on these forums who doesn't, he's continually made ballsy calls with regards to how we play and who he selects, and as far as I'm concerned whatever happens in the WC he should get another 4 years to mold the side, that doesn't mean his word is gospel and beyond criticism, and considering we are currently playing centres out of position I do feel he has let height bias get in his way of this one particular call. Brian O'Driscoll was no giant

Ok let me get this straight, your first sentence insinuates that because he was in an "unfamiliar setup" (which all the other Baabaa players were part of and still managed to rip it up) somehow excuses JdJ's anonymity? You then go on to say that JdJ is a great attacking talent (a step above JdV), I just fail to see why that wasnt made apparent in the game? Hell why hasnt it been made apparent in a Stormers game for the past 9999seasons he's been there for. Also, there is a MAJOR difference in how much space you have at SR level, let alone CC level. So if you think a good CC performance against the Pumas/Kings means that he will dominate the All Blacks please let me know, otherwise dont include it as a justification for his inclusion.

It is FACT that there is a correlation between win% and an increase of Ave size over the years. Although I do agree with you in that size isnt everything- where we differ is that I believe a player needs to fall within a certain size bracket in order for him to be eligible for that position, BoD wasnt huge, but he is still quite superior to JdJ in terms of size. SA has both the quality and depth to be able to challenge for that No1 World Ranking, and mediocrity should not be tolerated. I big Goodie will always beat a little Goodie. With regards to defence, he did nothing in that game either having made just 2 tackles all game the other players were well into their double figures.. Your argument regarding smaller players make for better tacklers is 100% invalid. If you had said tackle technique, I would agree, but not size. Mass = Stopping power.

So to recap:

I disagree with:
-The assertion that, when presented with the closest thing to test match rugby, JdJ going completely AFK on both Attack and defense is excusable.
-JdJ being superior on attack. Serfontein absolutely lit the JRWC alight for 2 consecutive years with his running into space, won the player of the year award. He doesnt have that stutterstep that JdJ has but it doesnt mean he doesnt have attacking flair (dont get confused with him playing bulls rugby under Ludekak, what he brings to the team under a decent coach is undeniable when the stats are pulled out)
-He would be a better defender than our current centres. (The boks have an internal competition amongst themselves to see who makes the most tackles in a test, where the winner gets a pair of oakleys. Serfontein has admittedly started giving pairs to his family as he has won so many.)

I agree with:
-HM's word not being gospel and at times being able to question him as to why he doesnt consider certain players. HM has frequent 1 on 1 sessions with many players across the provinces where he explains what he would like the player to improve upon.

My suggestion to you would be to start looking at match stats during or after the game, while stats dont tell you everything, they sure do give a hell of a lot of insight into the gruntwork that goes unnoticed by fans.

 

[Big Ewis]

Well it could be worse, he could have called you boring!

ehhh, you trying to tell me something there ? Speak up, I don't play in codes !

 

[PiXeL_NiNja]

I can't complain. I think Oupa is lucky to continue in ahead of Schalk. Not done anything wrong but his workrate and impact not up there for an SA loosie and even if I would've prefered both out and Kriel and Carr in along with chanecs for a guy like De Allende like you mention and Redelinghuys ahead of Jannie etc, lets just try and beat Ireland and England first and get those guys involved against Italy. Irsh poster on here worrying about their scrum needn't worry, between Jannie du Plessis and Coenie Oosthuizen at TH for us I can see many a 3 pointer for Sexton off the scrum.

Make no mistake, that is a quota selection. In the RC game where Oupa spent 60 minutes on the field before being subbed by Schalk for the last 20, Schalk made more meters, more tackles, more passes, more offloads, the only thing that OM had was 1 turnover to SB's 0. Tighthead is SA's Achilles heal, Jannie is absolute ****house in general play, and is only there for his (average) scrumming abilities.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Good to have a Cheetahs supporter in here (think I've said this before). And an opinionated, confrontaional and informed one at that! I can't believe our luck. Stay around for the SR season, Pixel!

I am hesitant to call Oupa a quota selection. I can see where anyone saying so is coming from but since I am not privy to what goes on in HM's head I am not going to firmly say that even if I might have it in my head as well. I mean, the continued selection of Jannie and return of Coenie has me scratching my head more than Mohoje's selection so I feel I just can't go and say Mohoje is way below a number of guys, is black and therefor is a quota selection since JdB and Ooathuizen are just as far if not further behind a number of options yet continue to be selected. Only difference is they're not black.

TH is a worry at the moment but for me the frustrating thing is it needn't be. Sure Malherbe and MvdM are injured but beyond them are a ton of guys in Europe who can scrum for 1 and have a ton of top flight experience in the European context or get in our best TH's from local comps (Dreyer and Redelinghuys statistically and then they can add more in general play Jannie as well!) or invest in a young guy like Thomas du Toit. I mean, he won't go worse than Jannie or Coenie in the scrum and is a valuable contributor around the park. DU Plessis' 5 missed tackles and penalties concede per game is starting to grate if it hasn't the past 2 years already and Coenie is not a TH. Nowhere near. tak the step now. Better late than never. Look how many young guys has repayed HM's faith,why not at TH. time to move past Jannie.

 

[profitius]

I think someone from the Ireland camp is sending out disinformation. Confuse and bamboozle the opposition is the new Schmidt master plan.

ehhh, you trying to tell me something there ? Speak up, I don't play in codes !

Don't worry Big E. You're not mad, just eccentric! :buba:

 

[munstermuffin]

Best and D'arcy ruled out lads and Olding was struggling too so Payne, Madigan and Henshaw were only 3 realistic options. Don't know why Madigan (the only 1 of 3 with recent games at 12) isn't in.

In training this morning team was from what I heard
McGrath Cronin Ross
POC Toner
POM Heaslip Henry
Murray Sexton
12. Payne 13. Henshaw
11. Gilroy 15. Kearney 14. Bowe

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Best and D'arcy ruled out lads and Olding was struggling too so Payne, Madigan and Henshaw were only 3 realistic options. Don't know why Madigan (the only 1 of 3 with recent games at 12) isn't in.

In training this morning team was from what I heard
McGrath Cronin Ross
POC Toner
POM Heaslip Henry
Murray Sexton
12. Payne 13. Henshaw
11. Gilroy 15. Kearney 14. Bowe

I thought Ireland was injury hit- I only see 4 sure starters missing?

 

[munstermuffin]

I thought Ireland was injury hit- I only see 4 sure starters missing?

Healy, Best, D'arcy and SOB. Yes I agree it's more our depth than starters are hit.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Trimble as well. 1/3rd of the team and on top of that our bench will be quite week. A couple of these lads aren't at full fitness either.

 

[Jockstap]

Best and D'arcy ruled out lads and Olding was struggling too so Payne, Madigan and Henshaw were only 3 realistic options. Don't know why Madigan (the only 1 of 3 with recent games at 12) isn't in.

In training this morning team was from what I heard
McGrath Cronin Ross
POC Toner
POM Heaslip Henry
Murray Sexton
12. Payne 13. Henshaw
11. Gilroy 15. Kearney 14. Bowe

That midfield is a huge worry, there will be no cohesion in both offense and defense, has Payne even played 12 before?

 

[goodNumber10]

I thought Ireland was injury hit- I only see 4 sure starters missing?

They are missing:

SOB
Darcy
Best
Healey
Trimble
BOD
Marshall

think about the bench as well.

 

[big ginger 8]

Healy, Best, D'arcy and SOB. Yes I agree it's more our depth than starters are hit.

Also Gilroy on the wing.

Still that's a side with two players who haven't played in over a month, including a tighthead who notouriously needs a run of games to get up to speed.

Our bench tighthead will be considered 4th choice at best, our hooker 3rd choice, debutant sub secondrower probably, debutant 12 who has never played 12 as far as I can tell, 13 starting his first international match there with a 10 and 12 he's never played before with. It's the stuff like that that's worrying as we need to be at our best for the boks. This is the list of players off the top of my head that would be in the 23 ahead of what's expected.

Healy (1), James Cronin (17 ahead of Kilcoyne), Moore (3), White (18 ahead of Ah You or Archer), Ryan/Tuohy/Henderson (all possibilities for 19), SO'B (7), D'arcy/Olding/ Marshall (possibilities at 12) Earls/Trimble/Fitzgerald (wing spot or 23, counting Fitzy as he was considered too injured when the squad was announced).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

BOD is gone, can't be seen as missing anymore! Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden and Luke Fitzhaven't the fitness either.