2014 6 Nations: Scotland vs France (Round 4)

[goodNumber10]

mmm hmmm, okay.


Say, I was watching this match some time ago, amazing match if you like attacking Rugby with flair...just under a decade ago and we didn't have the guys we have today in the backs. The part I want to show you is selected as you press play:




This would be IMPOSSIBLE with our current coaching staff with Lagisquet and co., and I understand Rugby has changed and it's all about huge defenses now and much bulkier guys and attacks need to be more simple to be more effective (unless you're the Wallabies or Blacks), but we need creation, variety. Forget the flair or eye-candy, I'm talking about efficient attack.

Like, if this try were scored by France today, we'd all be like: OMGGGGG WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW !!!!!! and here it's just some crappy little damage-control try to get back up to the score at the end of some test match.......no biggy.




unaware. Please elaborate.

alex king was ASCM attack coahc before he moved to Northampton

 

[goodNumber10]

Im doing U7 U8 at the moment

very cool. I don't have the patience for kids, and I like to coach structure and stuff like that rather than the skills, so i'd be an awful youth coach.

 

[Big Ewis]

alex king was ASCM attack coahc before he moved to Northampton

right. Well, more power to him for doing an excellent job in Clermont !

I'm concerned about Cotter leaving Clermont since we're on that topic....Scotland sure are getting a fine gentleman there. I'd gladly send Saint-André to the highlands and get Cotter for ourselves, but I have a feeling, I dunno just an irrational gut feeling the offer wouldn't take.

 

[goodNumber10]

Vern cotter must be bricking it right now... would you want to take over that rudderless ship?

i think alex king is shaping up to be a fantastic coach, Saints are playing some lovely rugby and in a similar vein to ASMC

 

[ratsapprentice]

mmm hmmm, okay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGajryagpQ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDmHdeYNw5s

The video you posted didn't go to where you wanted it to.
What time was it and I'll have a look.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

the emphasis (that at least I was trying to apply) was not that France are amazing 1-15, or that the backs are magnificent and all make the World XV, or that May and Nowell run straight lines per se (although Burrell and 36 most definitely do).
I'm saying:
- all French backs but Bastareaud are guys who look to/and manage to beat defenders by their only technique alone, without the help of a good structure by the team in particular plays. They all have that ability, again: Bonneval, Fickou, Fofana, Guitoune, Fall, Dulin, Buttin, Huget...that has stayed in French Rugby.
- England backs have come into play a lot more this year, and I applauded that many times already full-heartedly, but those two wingers can't create nearly like the French backs, they don't have that same creative/technical quality individually. They profit from being on a well-established, simple enough offensive system.



anybody who's watched a little bit of Clermont the past few years knows what Fofana is capable of doing when he's in a system that is established and others are filling the lanes.

the emphasis (that at least I was trying to apply) was not that France are amazing 1-15, or that the backs are magnificent and all make the World XV, or that May and Nowell run straight lines per se (although Burrell and 36 most definitely do).
I'm saying:
- all French backs but Bastareaud are guys who look to/and manage to beat defenders by their only technique alone, without the help of a good structure by the team in particular plays. They all have that ability, again: Bonneval, Fickou, Fofana, Guitoune, Fall, Dulin, Buttin, Huget...that has stayed in French Rugby.
- England backs have come into play a lot more this year, and I applauded that many times already full-heartedly, but those two wingers can't create nearly like the French backs, they don't have that same creative/technical quality individually. They profit from being on a well-established, simple enough offensive system.



anybody who's watched a little bit of Clermont the past few years knows what Fofana is capable of doing when he's in a system that is established and others are filling the lanes.

I was watching the horizon program last night on decision making and different sorts of biases. One of which is what they call 'Confirmation bias' where individuals favour pieces of information supporting a prior view of hypothesis. This imho describes your rugby views pretty well.

England collectively have beaten more defenders and made more metres than any other team in the competition. Johnny May who you think runs in straight lines has beaten as many defenders as Brice Dulin - that's with May only having played 2 games and 9 minutes. Believe me, if you're Mays size you don't beat defenders simply by running in a straight line. Same goes for Nowell. You say that the England wingers " profit from being on a well-established, simple enough offensive system". WHAT!?!?!?! Nearly all the gains these two and Brown have made have been in broken play, creative counter-attacking. The England offensive system is such that the ball doesn't even get to the wingers in organised play and therefore necessarily the outside backs make their gains by other means.

I'm completely at a loss as to why you think the likes of Huget and Bonneval have something entirely different to offer that the English backs don't. For me it goes back to the old stereotypes about the nations. I have always been in awe of the ability of players like Maxime Medard and Vincet Clerc. But i think rats is right; this is France team is not only poorly coached, it's currently nothing special as a squad.

This muscle-ball thing you talk about with regards to England. I'm still not entirely sure what it is about England that you think is unique in that manner. Every team has to earn the right to go wide, and most top teams understand that especially in the six nations. They do it by different means including mauling, carrying, scrummaging etc - through the forwards. This is necessary to the extent that its not a stylistic choice and I fail to see how you cast it in a negative light. You earn your right to play in a certain way. France against Wales were characterised by throwing the ball about but being constantly under pressure because they hadn't earned the metres elsewhere. Your prevailing opinion in rugby generally seems to be that this is a glorious way to play, even if its foolish.

I must admit, I don't get some of your opinions at all. You described Norths first try against France as horribly lucky, and any charge down or intercept you resent - but you happily ignore the two tries Huget scored against England in fortuitous circumstances.

There's also the fact that you reserve so much antagonism for England generally. You described England a number of weeks ago as "overly proud and no right to be". Lots of sides out thee play rugby which is easier to malign than england, such as Gatland ball, yet you love it.

 

[Big Ewis]

- Huget's try off the very high bounce was pure luck. I don't resent all lucky tries, you're reading through thick glasses into what I'm saying again, but Doussain smashing unnecessarily into Dulin who drop the ball and North there to ground it is ridiculously lucky for North, that's just a fact.

- I'm done with England. And yes, it's true the backs have brought a better dimension this year than the Brown-on-the-wing/Ashton/Goode era.
Watched a bit of that Jonny May tribute, kid's got good steps and speed. And I've noticed watching England's last 3 matches he in particular doesn't run straight lines. But there's just a rigidness about England, a lack of aesthetics about their game, and a great simplicity in their work that altogether gives me that idea of it. Some times I'm wrong with the way I say it because I've seen things while others have seen more and find my statements wrong when they're really partial, but that much is clear, what I've just said about England.

No, of course France aren't better with broken play or passing the ball around randomly. But again, each thing its own thing. France have major game plan/attacking issues, but England are bland though not sterile. England haven't exactly looked magnificent on attack at any point, nor have they looked even good on attack when they pass the ball around too much, and they immediately go for the ruck/one pass/ruck/one pass.

But it's true with Jonny May and Mike Brown, these two are good, especially Brown.

And no, I don't have a complex or wtvr with England. I've praised what I've genuinely liked about them, abundantly (Lancaster, better use of backs in 2014, Mike Brown, Farrell's all-around quality), but I really do have that criticism about their style, if you'll allow good Sir.


Huget's tries to refresh some memories, not exactly 100% luck:


and the other:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZirAxmKis

 

[Big Ewis]

(sorry to double post, but must to embed video)
rats: at 47:00



Pretty gorgeous tbh, and it's just a "cool try" by the reaction of the French team itself, the bench or pundit for the time...

 

[Big Ewis]

It's a shame we've got such problems at 10. I'm glad Weir's had a chance, and I probably would stick with him over Jackson (let's not forget that he was just as bad), but neither are any great shakes. On the other hand, Weir does look like a potato, so there's entertainment there! The rest of our backline is fairly competent, especially with Visser and Maitland back.

hey g6mcg, I'm going to answer you here coz we were kinda messin up that ENG WAL thread.
Weir does look....*weird* oh hahaha !...my dad says he thinks he looks "medieval", like, could play a knight in a movie...

Visser's back ?! nice for Scotland ! He's been out forever, hasn't he ? With Visser and Lamont on, we've got a couple of wingers we'll be sure to check at all times then...

do you think there's a chance Weir goes into a personal powertrip over that game-winning drop the other week, and launches drops at every attack Scotland starts ??..

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

hey g6mcg, I'm going to answer you here coz we were kinda messin up that ENG WAL thread.
Weir does look....*weird* oh hahaha !...my dad says he thinks he looks "medieval", like, could play a knight in a movie...

Visser's back ?! nice for Scotland ! He's been out forever, hasn't he ? With Visser and Lamont on, we've got a couple of wingers we'll be sure to check at all times then...

do you think there's a chance Weir goes into a personal powertrip over that game-winning drop the other week, and launches drops at every attack Scotland starts ??..

weir looks beautiful what you on about ?

 

[g6mcg]

Sorry, didn't realise I was posting in the England-Wales thread! I don't know about Weir playing a knight - surely that's Richie Gray, with Weir as a peasant? (Looks like I'll be mucking this thread up too!)

No no, sadly neither Visser nor Maitland are back yet, I just meant that once they're back, we'll have a decent 11-15. I hope Weir doesn't attempt to kick everything, because our pack isn't good enough to get that kind of ball in the 22 very often! And Weir's not a particularly great kicker. Did you see what Johnson said about him? Nice vote of confidence! http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/23/six-nations-2014-scott-johnson-duncan-weir-scotland

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i do agree that weir is not the best kicker, and im not sure why weir does try those kicks when where just going to lose the ball which is what was wrong with the scotland v england game why couldn't we pass it out to seymour instead of kicking it to him, but when i watched seymour play against japan he is always in a position to receive a cross-field kick.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Vern cotter must be bricking it right now... would you want to take over that rudderless ship?

i think alex king is shaping up to be a fantastic coach, Saints are playing some lovely rugby and in a similar vein to ASMC

If you knew Vern you would not be worried about him at all !!!! and he will not be as you say Bricking it!!!!!!you would bea lot more worried about the whole Scottish squad because when he gets his hands on them things will change, ask anyone who has played under him at Clermont, i know several personally and you do not cross Vern!!!!, well you can but you suffer the consequences, he will put Scotland in a much better place than they are now, as long as he is given the time.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

vern did very well for clermont hope he brings the same to scotland

 

[Big Ewis]

I think the deal France made with Scotland in regards to giving Cotter away is the Top 14 will release the man on condition that Scotland switches back to Scott Johnson when they're playing France.
Sounds like a fair deal to me, let's sign it. C'mon c'mon, let's sign.

 

[Benz]

my favourite team now is Sale Sharks as they just signed Chris Cusiter!

 

[FrenchFan]

If you knew Vern you would not be worried about him at all !!!! and he will not be as you say Bricking it!!!!!!you would bea lot more worried about the whole Scottish squad because when he gets his hands on them things will change, ask anyone who has played under him at Clermont, i know several personally and you do not cross Vern!!!!, well you can but you suffer the consequences, he will put Scotland in a much better place than they are now, as long as he is given the time.

Cotter has done some awesome work at Clermont. He is very highly respected. Big Respect btw him and Noves at Toulouse. Big rivalry but big respect. Here is a foreigner we should have kept on our shore. If the clowns running the ship of fools that FFR is had any sense, they would have approached him with an offer as assistant coach as part of PSA staff. Now that would have been a smart move on their part but ...they are clueless...

 

[Big Ewis]

I'd really, really, really love to storm into whatever office contains the ppl who decided PSA and Lagisquet and family and ask straight up, with no breather possible, why the hell are those bozos running my national team. Straight up, I'd LOVE to hear the arguments. What, coz he's coached before including in England and has a "classic style" with minimal risk and more "sensible" Rugby with tight defense they thought would better our national team ? Surely they'd use smt like that, and mention "especially given the state in which Marc Lièvremont left the team in, blah blah blah...". Lievremont may have been a mistake himself, but France had an up side. They had an upset they could fall from.
Right now, what's the best we can possibly wish for ? Individualities on our squad going insane and scoring tries and our forwards holding up not too bad up front for 80' and we drop 45 on some team soon ?? Only to lose the very next game with no game plan ?

Under Lievremont yes we had that huge loss in Argentina, that ridiculous loss at home against the Aussies. We did lose to Italy for the first time in the 6N.
But we also beat the AB in NZ, convincingly (if you watch the game) and managed a 10-14 score in test 2. We won a Grand Slam, and made it to the RWC final (albeit with a few bumps on the road) and challenged the AB to the very limit (if not more...).

The weirdest thing is France looked really good in all of November 2012. Here are some factors we had then:
- a half-back combination of Machenaud+Michalak which worked excellently both individually and in unison.
- Michalak beautiful and stable with his penalty kicking.
- an attack that worked based on good control and structure at the breakdown.
- Vincent Clerc.
- a scrum way on form and well utilized.

Went all downhill from then on...

 

[goodNumber10]

If you knew Vern you would not be worried about him at all !!!! and he will not be as you say Bricking it!!!!!!you would bea lot more worried about the whole Scottish squad because when he gets his hands on them things will change, ask anyone who has played under him at Clermont, i know several personally and you do not cross Vern!!!!, well you can but you suffer the consequences, he will put Scotland in a much better place than they are now, as long as he is given the time.

I'm not worried about him... But he won't change much at Scotland as the structure is a complete joke.

 

[Big Ewis]

I'm not worried about him... But he won't change much at Scotland as the structure is a complete joke.

I don't know about the structure, but they've got the guys on paper. A couple of huge wings with great pace, a very good FB and SH (and Cusiter too off the bench) and a good enough no.10, at least one good center (can't remember which one !...), guys like K.Brown, Denton, Beattie in the loose, Gray...the tight 3 might be a problem but they can manage I think if at least the rest works out.

A good coach makes anything into something nice, and with Scotland they have what it takes to compete at least at 6N level properly.
Perhaps, and this I have no clue but, perhaps more Scottish players should play in the Prem or in a more competitive environment ?

But there's no reason Scotland should lose 0-20 or 0-28 even at home. With what they've got on paper they should at least be able to compete with 6N level sides in Murrayfield.

There is definitely the tight 3 though which is a bit problematic, and here I speak without knowing but, the bench ?