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2014 6 Nations: Scotland vs France (Round 4)

Come on man, this isn't a coq (see what I did there?!) waving competition.

You can't claim a player is the "complete package" when he can't distribute - a skill which is important for a centre to have.

well Fofana can distribute. It maybe not his best skill but he puts guys into space in Clermont. He can pass I have seen it. The problem with Fofana is that he can often isolate himself because he is so quick and elusive. So the problem is support because u need guys who can keep up with him, this is why he can go his own.
 
If he's not very good in one of the primary roles of a centre then you cannot call him a complete package.
 
English posters have just gone berserk over the last few days. Wasteful aggressiveness, much touchier than usual, over-defensive...not sure what's going on, but it seems France playing bad has excited the English appetite, like a piece of meat for piranhas. A lot of sheer vehemence and it's not the atmosphere a Rugby forum deserves.

I didn't say anything inappropriate when France beat England in early Feb., and it was very big for us to start with a win, esp. over England, and what an awesome ending. I was in position to do quite some damage but I don't like to stir the crap or take advantage of situations, it's foolish and cheap.
A few English posters have really lost their decency here.


About Fofana and french flair and England and wtvr...it's not very complicated and some are making it blurry and confusing:
our guys individually offer a lot. We constantly make breaks, run meters, make the offloads, passes etc...our backs aren't the type to smash into the opposition. They're very athletic and have excellent skill individually (Bonneval, Dulin, Huget, Fofana, Fickou...). But then, we lack a whole lot on attack and game plan as a whole because Saint-André it seems really really sucks as a coach. So even though our backs constantly put in a ton of work each match, they too often look for the individual matchup and we often end up with nothing.

England backs can't create like the French backs. Guys like Burrell, 36, May, Nowell run straight lines. M. Brown is a fantastic back. Yes England has scored some efficient tries, but the athletic individual quality just isn't the same.

- England are: territorial kicking from Farrell, a lot of work up front/high work rate, one pass/ruck/one pass/ruck..., usually a big scrum but that hasn't worked out recently, good lineout and backs playing a very linear style.

- France are: everybody on the team playing hero-ball, looking for the answer individually, little chemistry at all, discipline issues, big scrum and okay lineout, very/quick athletic backs with good technique (so far particularly efficient with counter ball, broken play ball), tons of breaching/breaking/beating defenders but little conclusion, and overall just not playing like a team should/very limited game plan.
In the Top 14, they'd be a team with excellent players throughout but just bad playing together relatively to other teams.

As for Doussain, just drop it. He's a very good player, I amongst many thought he was the best French SH for a while (even over Parra), but this match in Wales he was really bad for some reason, most probably fatigue.

And btw I didn't intend to defend France, it's just been brought up so often I had to voice my take on it. I was fine settling for criticizing our lack of game plan...

well Fofana can distribute. It maybe not his best skill but he puts guys into space in Clermont. He can pass I have seen it. The problem with Fofana is that he can often isolate himself because he is so quick and elusive. So the problem is support because u need guys who can keep up with him, this is why he can go his own.

That's just one example of how bad France uses its players. Basta has been under the microscope for weeks now. Yes he could do better, but France utilize him in a terrible way. He's given passes with tacklers at his level, France use no depth in their attack, no overlaps, skip-passes, no scheme on attack that's beyond the mere "let's go all the way right, then all the way left".

We play really bad as a team, but the components are of very good quality, and that's what's saved us so far in this tournament.

And you see it with Saint-André, he even says in interviews: "our guys need to win more individual matchups". Dude, no they fkn don't. They do amazingly well all the time there. What they need is a FKN GAMEPLAN and efficient, versatile schemes for the backs as we've ALWAYS had. Even some years ago.
We've never been this bad on attack. Only since PSA took over.
 
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England backs can't create like the French backs. Guys like Burrell, 36, May, Nowell run straight lines. M. Brown is a fantastic back. Yes England has scored some efficient tries, but the athletic individual quality just isn't the same.

May never runs a straight line!

- England are: territorial kicking from Farrell, a lot of work up front/high work rate, one pass/ruck/one pass/ruck..., usually a big scrum but that hasn't worked out recently, good lineout and backs playing a very linear style.

- France are: everybody on the team playing hero-ball, looking for the answer individually, little chemistry at all, discipline issues, big scrum and okay lineout, very/quick athletic backs with good technique (so far particularly efficient with counter ball, broken play ball), tons of breaching/breaking/beating defenders but little conclusion, and overall just not playing like a team should/very limited game plan.
In the Top 14, they'd be a team with excellent players throughout but just bad playing together relatively to other teams.

That's just one example of how bad France uses its players. Basta has been under the microscope for weeks now. Yes he could do better, but France utilize him in a terrible way. He's given passes with tacklers at his level, France use no depth in their attack, no overlaps, skip-passes, no scheme on attack that's beyond the mere "let's go all the way right, then all the way left".

We play really bad as a team, but the components are of very good quality, and that's what's saved us so far in this tournament.

I think I agree with what you're saying in these two quotes. France do have individually talented, and 'creative' players, but as a team they're playing fairly predictable rugby, with the plan seeming to be that each individual player has his own attempt at breaking the line. With players like Fofana and Picamoles this is obviously going to work some of the time (heck, against Scotland I'm sure even Bastareud will cause havoc), but it's not an exciting game plan. Of course, you're now going to score a length of the field try against Scotland involving 17 offloads...

Totally agree about the quality of the players saving you, but the French team is directionless, and that leads to the forwards just crashing it up.
 
Totally agree about the quality of the players saving you, but the French team is directionless, and that leads to the forwards just crashing it up.

I don't think anybody doubts any of that. I don't see where there could possibly be debate about France atm...
 
well many players from traditional rugby background also play other sports in their youth. I was one of them. Fofana is a product of french rubgy club and a product of french rugby. Nothing else. I know 2nd rowers like to play Basket ball and are very good at it. Soccer also develops other skills. And the school of coaching centers in french clubs and academies is NOT about bashing the defense. I coach youth rugby in a french club and this is not what is taught.

Yes there is a strong emphasis on size and forward dominace because this is the way the game has evolved. Set pieces are essential in the game now. I have ALWAYS heard about the "battle of the packs" in our league since i was a kid but at the same time emphasis in the backs is ALWAYS and STILL IS about skills and creativity. Looking for space, beating the defender 1 on 1 etc and France do NOT suffer from a lack of creativity. We suffer from a ****E coach who is a mere puppet at the hands of a clueless Federation.

Maybe you're the exception to the rule.

I coach adults and I stand and watch the ecole on a saturday afternoon amazed at the sight of 7 year old children playing full contact rugby...this is a Fed 2 club.

My boy is nearly 4 and he can't play rugby in any form until he's 7 at which point he'll start full contact. In the uk he'd be playing tots games, not rugby but games with rugby balls and then stepping up to tag/touch and finally contact around 11/12.

is it different where you are? what age do they start tackling?
 
English posters have just gone berserk over the last few days. Wasteful aggressiveness, much touchier than usual, over-defensive...not sure what's going on, but it seems France playing bad has excited the English appetite, like a piece of meat for piranhas. A lot of sheer vehemence and it's not the atmosphere a Rugby forum deserves.

I didn't say anything inappropriate when France beat England in early Feb., and it was very big for us to start with a win, esp. over England, and what an awesome ending. I was in position to do quite some damage but I don't like to stir the crap or take advantage of situations, it's foolish and cheap.
A few English posters have really lost their decency here.


About Fofana and french flair and England and wtvr...it's not very complicated and some are making it blurry and confusing:
our guys individually offer a lot. We constantly make breaks, run meters, make the offloads, passes etc...our backs aren't the type to smash into the opposition. They're very athletic and have excellent skill individually (Bonneval, Dulin, Huget, Fofana, Fickou...). But then, we lack a whole lot on attack and game plan as a whole because Saint-André it seems really really sucks as a coach. So even though our backs constantly put in a ton of work each match, they too often look for the individual matchup and we often end up with nothing.

England backs can't create like the French backs. Guys like Burrell, 36, May, Nowell run straight lines. M. Brown is a fantastic back. Yes England has scored some efficient tries, but the athletic individual quality just isn't the same.

- England are: territorial kicking from Farrell, a lot of work up front/high work rate, one pass/ruck/one pass/ruck..., usually a big scrum but that hasn't worked out recently, good lineout and backs playing a very linear style.

- France are: everybody on the team playing hero-ball, looking for the answer individually, little chemistry at all, discipline issues, big scrum and okay lineout, very/quick athletic backs with good technique (so far particularly efficient with counter ball, broken play ball), tons of breaching/breaking/beating defenders but little conclusion, and overall just not playing like a team should/very limited game plan.
In the Top 14, they'd be a team with excellent players throughout but just bad playing together relatively to other teams.

As for Doussain, just drop it. He's a very good player, I amongst many thought he was the best French SH for a while (even over Parra), but this match in Wales he was really bad for some reason, most probably fatigue.

And btw I didn't intend to defend France, it's just been brought up so often I had to voice my take on it. I was fine settling for criticizing our lack of game plan...



That's just one example of how bad France uses its players. Basta has been under the microscope for weeks now. Yes he could do better, but France utilize him in a terrible way. He's given passes with tacklers at his level, France use no depth in their attack, no overlaps, skip-passes, no scheme on attack that's beyond the mere "let's go all the way right, then all the way left".

We play really bad as a team, but the components are of very good quality, and that's what's saved us so far in this tournament.

And you see it with Saint-André, he even says in interviews: "our guys need to win more individual matchups". Dude, no they fkn don't. They do amazingly well all the time there. What they need is a FKN GAMEPLAN and efficient, versatile schemes for the backs as we've ALWAYS had. Even some years ago.
We've never been this bad on attack. Only since PSA took over.

Good post mate. It is very much a process of having the systems in place to utilise your backs, and that is very much missing at the moment - didn't mean this to get into a France vs the rest of the world discussion, i think we can all appreciate the osition you are in... look at England pre 2011.
 
Yes there are a few really good international players in your team at the moment.
But I think you're over-egging it.

Really good players:

Dulin
Fofana
Domingo
Mas
Nyanga
Picamoles

The rest are either simply not that great (not bad, but nothing special), inconsistent (but average most of the time) or inexperienced.
Yes - you have some good players to form your team around - but this is not an outstanding team from 1 to 15.
They would be making a much sterner challenge for the 6N if they were more cohesive and tactically astute.
I think that given we have been saying similar things about French teams for a long time, that actually it really is an inherent cultural tendency to not function as a collective.
 
yeah, i'm not sure i subscribe to the Fofana can't pass school of thought. He's not a flat into the gaps passer but he's a good offloader and quite happy distributin if the chance is on wide.
 
He said Nowell and May only run straight lines.
What?!

if you pick over the bare bones you'll find fault with literally any post on here over 5 words.

The bulk of his post about the systems utilised by France is pretty reasonable and fair in my opinion.
 
Maybe you're the exception to the rule.

I coach adults and I stand and watch the ecole on a saturday afternoon amazed at the sight of 7 year old children playing full contact rugby...this is a Fed 2 club.

My boy is nearly 4 and he can't play rugby in any form until he's 7 at which point he'll start full contact. In the uk he'd be playing tots games, not rugby but games with rugby balls and then stepping up to tag/touch and finally contact around 11/12.

is it different where you are? what age do they start tackling?

we are no exception. we follow FFR guidelines. Full contact not quite. They start with tag and start learning to tackle quickly. Tackling is a basic skill that has to be taught early. Yes at the age of 7 they have started to tackle.

But this in no way translates to a school of coaching centres into bashing. Side stepping, awareness of space and passing are taught first and foremost. And sometimes they find out that bashing thru a smaller guy with poor tackling skill can also do the job....
 
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fair enough, different continuum to the English.

What age group are you coaching?
 
Yes there are a few really good international players in your team at the moment.
But I think you're over-egging it.

Really good players:

Dulin
Fofana
Domingo
Mas
Nyanga
Picamoles

The rest are either simply not that great (not bad, but nothing special), inconsistent (but average most of the time) or inexperienced.
Yes - you have some good players to form your team around - but this is not an outstanding team from 1 to 15.
They would be making a much sterner challenge for the 6N if they were more cohesive and tactically astute.
I think that given we have been saying similar things about French teams for a long time, that actually it really is an inherent cultural tendency to not function as a collective.

the emphasis (that at least I was trying to apply) was not that France are amazing 1-15, or that the backs are magnificent and all make the World XV, or that May and Nowell run straight lines per se (although Burrell and 36 most definitely do).
I'm saying:
- all French backs but Bastareaud are guys who look to/and manage to beat defenders by their only technique alone, without the help of a good structure by the team in particular plays. They all have that ability, again: Bonneval, Fickou, Fofana, Guitoune, Fall, Dulin, Buttin, Huget...that has stayed in French Rugby.
- England backs have come into play a lot more this year, and I applauded that many times already full-heartedly, but those two wingers can't create nearly like the French backs, they don't have that same creative/technical quality individually. They profit from being on a well-established, simple enough offensive system.

yeah, i'm not sure i subscribe to the Fofana can't pass school of thought. He's not a flat into the gaps passer but he's a good offloader and quite happy distributin if the chance is on wide.

anybody who's watched a little bit of Clermont the past few years knows what Fofana is capable of doing when he's in a system that is established and others are filling the lanes.
 
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We have a terrible attacking system - it's barely improved.
May and Nowell have not profited from a good attacking system any more than your players have.

May runs across field until he finds a gap... that's the long and short of it. Oh and he's deceptively rapid - 10.7 100m time.
I'd argue May is closer to the French archetype than most of the current French players are themselves!
i.e he doesn't know what he's doing... he just gets the ball and runs for his life.

Nowell and Mike Brown beat people by wrong-footing them and then having the strength to make ground in the tackle.
Those are individual qualities - not a result of team systems.
They both play for clubs with very open, offload-centric attacking systems.

That's exactly why Chris Ashton has looked so bad for the last 2 years - because he is only as good as his team's ability to create gaps.
Our team doesn't do that very well - we are currently relying on individual ability to make up for that.

We have scored the grand total of 1 try as a result of a set play. (Burrell's against Scotland)
 
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Yes there are a few really good international players in your team at the moment.
But I think you're over-egging it.

Really good players:

Dulin
Fofana
Domingo
Mas
Nyanga
Picamoles

The rest are either simply not that great (not bad, but nothing special), inconsistent (but average most of the time) or inexperienced.
Yes - you have some good players to form your team around - but this is not an outstanding team from 1 to 15.
They would be making a much sterner challenge for the 6N if they were more cohesive and tactically astute.
I think that given we have been saying similar things about French teams for a long time, that actually it really is an inherent cultural tendency to not function as a collective.

I find only the AB can truly line up 15 oustanding players. They also are exceptional tacklers.

we need a good national coach. The french team will end up coaching itself.
 
anybody who's watched a little bit of Clermont the past few years knows what Fofana is capable of doing when he's in a system that is established and others are filling the lanes.

and of course those systems were established by an Englishman ;)
 
I'd argue May is closer to the French archetype than most of the current French players are themselves!

:D mmm hmmm, okay.


Say, I was watching this match some time ago, amazing match if you like attacking Rugby with flair...just under a decade ago and we didn't have the guys we have today in the backs. Watch at 47:00.




This would be IMPOSSIBLE with our current coaching staff with Lagisquet and co., and I understand Rugby has changed and it's all about huge defenses now and much bulkier guys and attacks need to be more simple to be more effective (unless you're the Wallabies or Blacks), but we need creation, variety. Forget the flair or eye-candy, I'm talking about efficient attack.

Like, if this try were scored by France today, we'd all be like: OMGGGGG WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW !!!!!! and here it's just some crappy little damage-control try to get back up to the score at the end of some test match.......no biggy.

and of course those systems were established by an Englishman
wink.gif


unaware. Please elaborate.
 
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