• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

[2013 TRC] New Zealand vs South Africa in Auckland (14/09/2013)

SA can still win this tournament in deed, and they sure can thank Argentina for being so terrible that first game and conceding 70 for the GA.

SA will beat Australia easily at home, but I'm not too sure what to anticipate for the ARG NZ match. Ppl will all bear in mind what happened last year during that fixture, but I think it'll be much closer this time.
 
SA can still win this tournament in deed, and they sure can thank Argentina for being so terrible that first game and conceding 70 for the GA.

SA will beat Australia easily at home, but I'm not too sure what to anticipate for the ARG NZ match. Ppl will all bear in mind what happened last year during that fixture, but I think it'll be much closer this time.
The points difference isn't really that great to be honest. It's only +19 in favour of SA, nothing NZ can't wipe out against Argentina. Then again, South Africa could hammer the Wallabies.
 
The points difference isn't really that great to be honest. It's only +19 in favour of SA, nothing NZ can't wipe out against Argentina. Then again, South Africa could hammer the Wallabies.

Bingo. And NZ are away, while the Boks are comfortably at home.
 
Not for nothing but it's interesting that the IRB made this announcement considering the abuse Paddy O'Brian and NZ got after the 2009 Italy match which we still seem to hear about.



Interesting alright. I'd say its a double standard. They should now retrospectively apologise to Paddy for the way they treated him and acknowledge that he was right to do what he did. But they won't.

At least one thing Paddy can be proud of is that he changed the mindset at the iRB, opening the "closed shop" attitude that prevailed where referees were never wrong or rebuked publically . We all know that referees were thoroughly reviewed and privately reprimanded when they made bad mistakes, but that process needed to have a public outlet, and with his open criticism of Stuart Dickinson's abysmal performance at San Siro in 2009, Paddy made sure that it got one.

I think the iRB finally understood that (even if they never publicly acknowledged it) when they offered him the job of heading-up the Sevens Referees unit as we move towards Rio 2016 and a new age of Olympic Rugby.
 
Last edited:
IRB Media just released a press statement revealing that.....they acknowledge Poite messed up on the first yellow.


http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2068799.html#irb+statement+following+nz+sa+match

Just as players and coaches make mistakes, the decision was an unfortunate case of human error by the match officials, who, having reviewed the match, fully recognise and accept that they made a mistake in the application of law.

That is a poor excuse though. They have too many aids available to simply state officials make mistakes like players and coaches.

This Frenchman has left a sour taste on the tournament. I am confident it would have been one of the matches of the year sans Poite's mistake (s).

I do wish there was more severe punishment for officials who display such absolute incompetence. Financial maybe?
 
Last edited:
I do wish there was more severe punishment for officials who display such absolute incompetence. Financial maybe?

In each match, an elite referee has to make between many hundreds of decisions over the course of 80 minutes. He has to make them in real time, and is expected to get these decisions right; and you want to punish him and fine him if he gets a few wrong? Well, how will that help?

The answer is, it won't. It will increase the pressure on the referees who are then more likely make mistakes than before. If players want referees to make less mistakes, then they need to play their part by not trying to cheat and by not committing acts of foul play.

Also, referees are paid fack-all for what they do, so threatening to fine them will simply drive them out of the game. Its hard enough to get volunteers to pick up a whistle without that sort of BS to deal with!
 
IRB Media just released a press statement revealing that.....they acknowledge Poite messed up on the first yellow.


http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediaz...8799.html#irb+statement+following+nz+sa+match

A few posts back I basically said this was going to happen (not the public statement, but the realization that it was a bad call). It is good to hear them admit it outloud - I think it will help put the controversy to rest.

It is what it is, and nothing will change the outcome of the game. And there's no way to prove that, without that call, the end result would have been different. It's not the first bad call, it won't be the last, but that won't stop me from enjoying the game. I feel that you can't let the 'if onlys' ruin the sport for you.


das
 
the way I see it the All Blacks simply need a good bonus point away win against Argentina

Everything will be against them at Ellis Park with no carter or McCaw

But that bonus point and hope that the Aussies don't leak a bonus point should mean that NZ just need to deny the boks and/or pick up a losing bonus point at Ellis Park to retain the Championship.

makes you really think about that last AB's vs Argentina game and really the AB's should have pushed for the bonus point in that game, took a late shot at goal when they probably should have gone for a try.

Just in case I did not say it enough, BONUS POINT!

ohhhh 2000 posts. Do I get a bonus point?
 
We haven't won at Ellis Park since 1997. I hate to say this, but I hope the Aussies beat you in Newlands, because I wouldn't want us to be in the position of having to beat you at Ellis Park to to win the RC. It could come down to points difference and/or bonus points.

The All Blacks match against the Pumas in La Plata has now taken on enormous significance. We will be needing to win it by a big margin and with a bonus point.

An exceptionally meaningless stat when we have only played them twice in that interval. I would rather be in our position than South Africa's, anyway.
 
ohhhh 2000 posts. Do I get a bonus point?

Nope! You get a lecture from your wife/girlfriend/mother/best pal/boss/neighbors about wasting valuable time pecking away at the keyboard talking to strangers on the interwebs.

At least, that's what happens to me ('ceptin' it's my hubby doing the bellyaching :rolleyes: - he just doesn't understand, poor dear).


das
 
Wonder if Hansen will employ the same logic that he used for Messam/Luatua to start Cruden?

Agree with a previous poster - Cruden will start if fit. In part it might be based on the same logic as Messam v Luatua but IMO the other difference is that Cruden is clearly a more prefereble choice than Barrett. Luata Messam was/is debateable - but Cruden, for me, is the best 10 in NZ by quite a margin these days.
 
Last edited:
This rugby championship is almost the Boks to loose if we dont put in a good performance against Argentina. And we actually usually struggle a bit with them at home they are pretty tough.

Depends what a good performance equates to in terms of points on the table. For arguments sake if the ABs and SA both get equal points out of their respective games and the for and against remains in SAs favour (strong likelihood I'd say), then the Boks will be 4 points behind on the table going into the last game. If that's the case it will a tough ask for the Boks to win the RC as they will basically need to beat NZ by more than 7. Tough enough to beat NZ anyway, but by more than 7 is even tougher....

Also - I would argue there is more chance NZ gets 5points out of their clash with Argentina than SA to get 5 out of the OZ match. If thats the case SA will need to wallop NZ...

TAB in NZ has the ABs at $1.10 to win the RC - SA at $6.
 
Depends what a good performance equates to in terms of points on the table. For arguments sake if the ABs and SA both get equal points out of their respective games and the for and against remains in SAs favour (strong likelihood I'd say), then the Boks will be 4 points behind on the table going into the last game. If that's the case it will a tough ask for the Boks to win the RC as they will basically need to beat NZ by more than 7. Tough enough to beat NZ anyway, but by more than 7 is even tougher....

Also - I would argue there is more chance NZ gets 5points out of their clash with Argentina than SA to get 5 out of the OZ match. If thats the case SA will need to wallop NZ...

TAB in NZ has the ABs at $1.10 to win the RC - SA at $6.

I would not bet against the Boks at ellis park. This particular boks team has alot of potential if they are coached correctly and use the right tactics against us, I suspect that could be another year away before they cotton on to the correct tactics to use but you never know they might of learnt alot from the weekend.
 
Agree with a previous poster - Cruden will start if fit. In part it might be based on the same logic as Messam v Luatua but IMO the other difference is that Cruden is clearly a more prefereble choice than Barrett. Luata Messam was/is debateable - but Cruden, for me, is the best 10 in NZ by quite a margin these days.

I thought the situation was comparable because Cruden and Messam were both established in their position before they were injured (at least when Carter's out, for the former - I don't share your opinion that Cruden is the better of the two, just yet) but their replacements performed unexpectedly well in their absence. In any case, I agree with you. Cruden should definitely start.
 
I got this off SA Rugby Referees website:

http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-discussion-that-red-card/2829987/

1. The tackle on Carter.

Morné Steyn misses a kick at goal. Daniel Carter of New Zealand drops out, the ball bounces and Tony Woodcock passes the ball to Aaron Smith, who sends out a long, looping pass to Carter. Carter faces the coming ball and clearly cannot see Bismarck du Plessis approaching from his blind side. Carter catches the ball and Du Plessis tackles Carter heavily.

The referee immediately blows his whistle and much aggression breaks out between the two sides, none of it centred on Du Plessis.

When the referee blew his whistle, he indicated a penalty to New Zealand. When the playground pulling and pushing was over, Jean de Villiers, the South African captain, said to the referee: "What was wrong with the tackle?" (A fair question.)

The referee said: "Height, shoulder, no arms."

He then told the two captains that when he blew his whistle players had to stop. And he told the TMO that he had made his decision about the tackle but asked him if there was foul play afterwards - that is in the squabbling.

The TMO does as he is asked and looks at the squabbling where he can detect no foul play.

There is no examination of the tackle. The referee does not examine any replay of the tackle either. He calls Du Plessis to him and says: "Height and no arms".He shows him a yellow card. Du Plessis is shocked and goes to the sin bin.

Some points:

i. Du Plessis was not offside. There had been no ruck or maul and only New Zealanders had played the ball.

ii. Carter had the ball. It was not tackling a man without the ball.

iii. A high tackle is defined by law.

Law 10.4 DANGEROUS PLAY AND MISCONDUCT
(e) A player must not tackle (or try to tackle) an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. A tackle around the opponent’s neck or head is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Du Plessis did not tackle Carter above the line of Carter's shoulders, nor did Du Plessis attempt to do so.

iii. Not using the arms is also laid down by the Laws.

Law 10.4 DANGEROUS PLAY AND MISCONDUCT
(g) Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Du Plessis's right arm was wrapped around Carter's back. His left arm and hand were across Carter's chest, his left hand touching the ball.

He used his arms. He was not guilty of not using his arms.

When Du Plessis came back from the sin bin, the referee told him to use his arms in the tackle - which Du Plessis had in fact done.

2. Summary.

The reasons the referee gave for sending Du Plessis to the sin bin were wrong. It was a refereeing mistake. Mistakes happen but in this case it was so unnecessary. The referee had time to consult his assistants and the TMO and to look at the evidence on the big screen. He, an experienced Test referee, did none of those things but relied on his single impression in real time - and he was wrong.

The New Zealand players were also wrong to start a brawl. It may just be that the referee and the New Zealand players were startled by seeing the hero, one of the greatest players in the history of rugby football, knocked to the ground and injured. But the player must be found guilty of an infringement in law and not because Carter was hurt in an action that is legal under Law.

There should not have been a yellow card against Du Plessis.

3. The charge into Messam

In the second incident Du Plessis gets a pass from Ruan Pienaar and has the ball under his left arm as he charges at Liam Messam of New Zealand. Both players are upright. Du Plessis lifts his right arm bent at the elbow and this elbow and forearm make contact with Messam, sending him reeling backwards. The assistant referee reports possible foul play and - this time - the referee refers the incident to the TMO. The replays confirm what Du Plessis did and he was shown a second yellow card.

Law 10.4 DANGEROUS PLAY AND MISCONDUCT
(a) Punching or striking. A player must not strike an opponent with the fist or arm, including the elbow, shoulder, head or knee(s).
Sanction: Penalty kick

That is what Du Plessis was guilty of.

Yellow card?

Law 10.5 SANCTIONS
(a) Any player who infringes any part of the Foul Play Law must be admonished, or cautioned and temporarily suspended for a period of ten minutes’ playing time, or sent-off.

It is up to the referee to determine which option he will use of (a) talking to, (b) warning and yellow card and (c) red card. In this case he opted for the middle course.

As a matter of interest John Smit acted similarly against the French captain, Jérôme Thion, when South Africa played France at Stade de France in 2005. After the match Smit was cited, found guilty and suspend for six weeks, which suggests that the IRB regarded it as a red-card offence.

Now, I would like Smartcooky to assist here, and more specifically with the Second Yellow card.

Law 10.4 Punching or Striking - A player must not strike an opponent with the fist or arm, including the elbow, shoulder, head or knee(s).
Okay fine, that is pretty much straight forward.
But...
And this is a bit technical, but IMO has merit, Bismarck didn't Strike, nor Punched Messam with the Forearm or elbow... Bismarck used it in a defensive manner. Now me, being a student of the laws, sitting here, thinks that the laws needs to be more detailed, as Bismarck didn't have the intent to punch or strike Messam. he used his arm as a method of covering/blocking/protecting himself. Surely there had to be a bit more leniency towards Bismarck for this instance??

I would like to some constructive opinions about this, and not some smug comments or rude comments please.
 
I got this off SA Rugby Referees website:

http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-discussion-that-red-card/2829987/



Now, I would like Smartcooky to assist here, and more specifically with the Second Yellow card.

Law 10.4 Punching or Striking - A player must not strike an opponent with the fist or arm, including the elbow, shoulder, head or knee(s).
Okay fine, that is pretty much straight forward.
But...
And this is a bit technical, but IMO has merit, Bismarck didn't Strike, nor Punched Messam with the Forearm or elbow... Bismarck used it in a defensive manner. Now me, being a student of the laws, sitting here, thinks that the laws needs to be more detailed, as Bismarck didn't have the intent to punch or strike Messam. he used his arm as a method of covering/blocking/protecting himself. Surely there had to be a bit more leniency towards Bismarck for this instance??

I would like to some constructive opinions about this, and not some smug comments or rude comments please.

To me its a little grey area and will be luck of the draw on the day with the particular referee. I recall Hosea Gear running over a welsh or irish player last year and lead in with his fore arm or something and knocked the guy out i think. I also recall Jerry Collins doing something similar probably on a couple of occasions. They both got away with it. They were also both going at high speed into contact whereas the Bismark episode was much more obvious as it was almost in slow mo which made it look worse. (he was also probably an inch away from knocking messam out cold or worse).

To me end of the day if you allow players to get away with that there are going to be a shed load of head injuries going on in each game as everybody will do it. The ball carriers get protection and the tacklers should get a bit aswell.

I dont think it can be allowed and you are right maybe that law needs clarifying a bit.

Honestly to me the second yellow is not even debatable its just ***** luck or ***** refree. (he took the gamble on the first tackle on carter and drew and then took a second gamble going into that contact with Messam and lost). Thats the way i see it anyway.
 
Last edited:
Ok, Poite made mistake which was quite costly. But he is not the worst referee. Look at Steve Walsh. He even managed to mess scrum calls and have a lough after. And overall he was unable to keep match in his hands. And last match in Rugby Championship was one of the poorest which I saw for a long time. No comments from IRB?
 
Ok, Poite made mistake which was quite costly. But he is not the worst referee. Look at Steve Walsh. He even managed to mess scrum calls and have a lough after. And overall he was unable to keep match in his hands. And last match in Rugby Championship was one of the poorest which I saw for a long time. No comments from IRB?

The funny thing about this is I didnt even watch the match and I know Steve is full of crap. Seriously one of the worst things the NZRU ever did was let this idiot go to Australia because now we have the chance of him reffing in games against NZ.
 

Latest posts

Top