2013 British and Irish Lions

[lynam1104]

Lydiate it is then.

Part of why I picked those guys is due to versatility but I also wanted out ant out back rowers, Tips, Lydiate ect. Right now I'd go with 6. Robshaw 7. Tipuric 8. SOB (He has played 8 before yes)

That would do a good job of nullifying to Pocock effect along with having good carrying from SOB as he wont have to do as much breakdown work. However theres 4 months between now and then a lot can change, Wood has been in great form and we'll have to see how Lydiate plays when he gets back.

 

[Peat]

Back this week I think - or may be - Lydiate that is. That said, last time I said that was about Fez, and look what happened there...

I'm still vaguely hoping Henderson bolts. If he can get the stage, he has the goods. A very good quarter-final might be needed.

 

[Aedaphon]

Lydiate it is then.

Part of why I picked those guys is due to versatility but I also wanted out ant out back rowers, Tips, Lydiate ect. Right now I'd go with 6. Robshaw 7. Tipuric 8. SOB (He has played 8 before yes)

That would do a good job of nullifying to Pocock effect along with having good carrying from SOB as he wont have to do as much breakdown work. However theres 4 months between now and then a lot can change, Wood has been in great form and we'll have to see how Lydiate plays when he gets back.

I honestly don't think that SOB has shown the all round quality to be a Lion. He carries well, but that's been his only defining asset thus far. For me Morgan has an equal shot of being picked up at 8 and at least he's a specialist (in a team that will certainly carry some versatile forwards with second row/blindside, blindside/openside and blindside/8 pedigree).

 

[munstermuffin]

Peat I think Henderson has way too much to do to be a bolter. He hasn't got the exposure yet either and only has 1 top game really to start

 

[mstar]

Gatland is a big fan or Morgan.

 

[dullonien]

I honestly don't think that SOB has shown the all round quality to be a Lion. He carries well, but that's been his only defining asset thus far. For me Morgan has an equal shot of being picked up at 8 and at least he's a specialist (in a team that will certainly carry some versatile forwards with second row/blindside, blindside/openside and blindside/8 pedigree).

That's a harsh analysis. I think SOB has developed into a very good all round back rower, probably to the detriment of his carrying game to a certain degree. So far this 6 nations, he's shown that he's got a huge work rate putting in a massive amount of tackles, he's good on the floor at turning ball over, and he's still a good carrier of the ball. He's shown a more all round game than pretty much any other back rower thus far.

However I wouldn't start him at 8, or at 7. I would consider starting him at 6, but atm Robshaw has that shirt sewn up for me. Where that leaves SOB is to battle it out for the bench spot with Wood. I'd have SOB winning that battle atm (don't let the fact that England are winning and Ireland are losing sway things, SOB has been good in all three matches).

My backrow thus far would therefore be:

06 Robshaw
07 Tipuric
08 Faletau

20 SOB

 

[big ginger 8]

I honestly don't think that SOB has shown the all round quality to be a Lion. He carries well, but that's been his only defining asset thus far. For me Morgan has an equal shot of being picked up at 8 and at least he's a specialist (in a team that will certainly carry some versatile forwards with second row/blindside, blindside/openside and blindside/8 pedigree).

No offence but you need to pay more attention to SO'B he gets through a mountain of work other than his carrying. Think he's up there in the top 5 for most tackles and has made a load of turnovers.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

08 Faletau

ಠ_ಠ

 

[Peat]

On the O'Brien thing - I'd have Wood ahead of him. When O'Brien stops giving away stupid penalties and displays more vision and awareness on a rugby field, I might consider changing that. The latter certainly seems to change when playing for Leinster anyway...

Peat I think Henderson has way too much to do to be a bolter. He hasn't got the exposure yet either and only has 1 top game really to start

He is as well known as Keith Earls was back in 2009; it is a long shot but not impossible. And the chances could go up a lot if Henderson is parachuted into the Ireland XV which, at the risk of starting a row here, he should be for either of DOC or POM. Probably better for the thread if any such disagreements you may have are voiced in one of the Ireland international threads...

 

[j'nuh]

At the min, I like the idea of:

4. Launchbury 5. Lock 6. Flanker 7. Flanker 8. Faletau
19. Lock 20. Morgan/Beattie

where we try and keep the flankers on for 80, but Launchbury covers 6 if needed. Faletau to contain Australia and get through the work he gets through, Morgan/Beattie to come on and slice through them (they're the best "traditional" ball-carrying 8s). FWIW, I would have Parling and Evans as the two locks, Robshaw at 6 and Tipuric at 7.

I've said it before, but Hamilton deserves to go before Gray does. Hamilton is much better than Gray this season.

 

[Draggs]

ಠ_ಠ

Hey! Hey Olyy... Did you know... Faletau was born in TONGA!!!!
Poaching Welsh.

 

[munstermuffin]

On the O'Brien thing - I'd have Wood ahead of him. When O'Brien stops giving away stupid penalties and displays more vision and awareness on a rugby field, I might consider changing that. The latter certainly seems to change when playing for Leinster anyway...



He is as well known as Keith Earls was back in 2009; it is a long shot but not impossible. And the chances could go up a lot if Henderson is parachuted into the Ireland XV which, at the risk of starting a row here, he should be for either of DOC or POM. Probably better for the thread if any such disagreements you may have are voiced in one of the Ireland international threads...

Totally disagree - Earls was starting and cemented a spot in starting team (when everyone was fully fit) and played all big Europen games and was tagged with a reputation already. Also Earls was around from 07-08 season and was on the bench for 08 HEC final. So had an extra season. Add in it easier to be more noticed I think in the backs where (while been good) Henderson hasn't been AMAZING in terms of people saying "we'd have been loosing games without him". Not saying Earls had that last time but that Henderon needs that in a more competitive position. And lastly it can be argued IF there were no injuries would Henderson be near Irish squad or be able to oust Tuohy or Muller from a full strength Ulster team. Also you say he could be picked at lock but how can that call be made when he is playing the majority at 6 for now.

 

[Peat]

edit: Edited out the pointless guff

I fully accept he's not got the platform - as of yet at least, and probably too little time remains - for a Lions bolter. But he absolutely one hundred per cent has the talent. And while 6 is competitive, I fully believe that if he'd been given the platform, he'd have made it. The injury crisis in Ulster's second row came at massively the wrong moment for him. And - with a bit of luck - I think he still might, there's a lot of very good players but a) Gatland likes a gamble b) he's the best athlete of the lot. Probably not going to happen, but I will continue to dream.

 

[munstermuffin]

edit: Edited out the pointless guff

I fully accept he's not got the platform - as of yet at least, and probably too little time remains - for a Lions bolter. But he absolutely one hundred per cent has the talent. And while 6 is competitive, I fully believe that if he'd been given the platform, he'd have made it. The injury crisis in Ulster's second row came at massively the wrong moment for him. And - with a bit of luck - I think he still might, there's a lot of very good players but a) Gatland likes a gamble b) he's the best athlete of the lot. Probably not going to happen, but I will continue to dream.

Don't get me wrong I don't doubt he's a talent and will be a future Lion if he keeps progressing but as of now he has to do too much and as I put it if Ulster were at full strength he would be on bench. Gatland I know likes to take a gamble but unfortunately there too much established quality ahead of him to even consider the idea

 

[Peat]

Don't get me wrong I don't doubt he's a talent and will be a future Lion if he keeps progressing but as of now he has to do too much and as I put it if Ulster were at full strength he would be on bench. Gatland I know likes to take a gamble but unfortunately there too much established quality ahead of him to even consider the idea

There has been plenty of established quality ahead of every bolter, by and large. And whether somebody is on the bench or not has nothing to do with their overall quality; it is a mark of a comparison between two players, not a mark of overall quality. Ignoring players who do not start every week is a poor and overly conservative way to go about business. But there we go, not a lot of point in repeating this argument over and over.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yes but the big difference is Henderson isn't really tearing up trees and when he isn't established as a first teamer in his club then chances would've been slim in getting Lions bolter.
Compare with a bolter like Zebo for example someone who is a settled starter. Like realistically Henderson hasn't enough platform to get it in my opinion like without being harsh if he can't get a start in an injury ravaged national team that a bad sign.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Henderson hasn't been given a chance though, and he keeps being stuck in second row which is not his main position - and you can tell he doesn't make as much of an impact there.

He has the potential to either be an average second row or a very good ball carrying 6

 

[big ginger 8]

Henderson hasn't been given a chance though, and he keeps being stuck in second row which is not his main position - and you can tell he doesn't make as much of an impact there.

He has the potential to either be an average second row or a very good ball carrying 6

I dunno about that at the moment yes much better 6 than lock. I n the future I could see him as a ball playing lock. Not for a number of years though. Both of Ireland starting locks now have played huge amounts of time on the blindside.

 

[Peat]

I would not be advocating Henderson if he had not been pulling up trees at blindside for Ulster all season, or if he hadn't established himself in the team in Ferris' nigh-permanent absence - or when needed to cover a lock crisis, which is what killed him this season tbh. That he's not been playing for Ireland is part that, part Kidney being a moron - not good for his platform no, but I've already pointed out his platform is not ideal. Repeatedly. Here's hoping for a HEC QF stormer I guess.

 

[munstermuffin]

A I said when I state I think he's nowhere near a bolter I will say it's nothing to do with his ability or anything it's he isn't given enough time to state his case in a position I think Gatland has probably made 95% of the calls on already. Compared to Earls 4 years ago it is a different story as Keith was more established and well competition was (in my opinion) not as hard for positions in the backs.

And for what it worth Donnacha Ryan is the rugged player he is today from his experience at 6 for few years in fact it's only this year he has become a lock exclusively