Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[St George]

Sarcasm is lost on you my friend! It was meant as a joke. The incredibly hypocritical comment summed up what much of this thread has been, a ******* contest where people post before they think.

That's what smilies are for. doh.

 

[dullonien]

My whole issue with this break away league is who will hold the power. If the French and English clubs hold all the power when it comes to decision making for the future of the competition, where will that lead for the Welsh regions and anyone else who chose to join?

I also want to see how the revenues will be divided in this new tournament. Increased revenues will be nice, but if the split favours the English and French, then the Welsh regions will still struggle to stem the flow of players, because the English and French clubs will have even more money to throw around.

 

[BasqueBete]

Counter argument ? You have stated that France at 2011 was a one off, I have replied stating that France has the very best record of any country yet to win the World Cup, and arguably, one of the most consistent records even with the inclusion of winners..

It is you sir who doesn't have a fudging counter arguement...

Ps well played ulster last weekend...one of the more honest and hard working teams In the Celtic brigade along with Glasgow..

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Counter argument ? You have stated that France at 2011 was a one off, I have replied stating that France has the very best record of any country yet to win the World Cup, and arguably, one of the most consistent records even with the inclusion of winners..

It is you sir who doesn't have a fudging counter arguement...

Ps well played ulster last weekend...one of the more honest and hard working teams In the Celtic brigade along with Glasgow..

When you give previous facts to deny a tendency, it's not really a good argument. That is, giving facts from 1987-2003 to argue over a statement that says "from 2007..." is not really very bright.

Hmm, bad news for rugby that the welsh clubs have broken ranks. Wait til either Cardiff or Llanelli miss the rabo cut though, then their fans will be moaning. There'll be either a stupidly low qualification cut off or lots of angry Welshmen. If the new comp does have a low qualification point and PRL and LNR go for it then we all know the real reason for wrecking the ERC was £158,000,000 from BT. (hell we know that anyway. the worry is what is going to happen next once the clubs have autonomy from the unions. I'm seriously worried about test match rugby and where a competitive England side will be in the PRL's priority list, Probably the same place that Chelsea FC place the English football team. )

Well today is the day. The Irish, Italians and Scots have one chance to talk the welsh clubs round. A united front will bring England and France back into the fold because an Anglo-France competition won't satisfy BT. I've been watching French rugby and the gradual erosion of the national team from the 2007 RWC to the present day where France are a bit of a joke and about as scary as a baby gerbil. The RFU need to draw a line on the sand early (they should have done it the same week as the IRB issued their statement) and be prepared to let the PRL clubs go or be left with the same pathetic international competition as rugby league. Just watch how the Scottish rugby league side goes next week. the welsh regions have basically given Scottish rugby a shove into the coffin. And for the record I'll be cancelling my 12 month contract with BT at the end of august next year. They've helped ruin international rugby, I'm not going to pay them a penny more than they are owed.

Now, say what you want, France is still, and there is no reason whatsoever to believe it has more chances if it ceasing to be, one of the powerhouses of world rugby. I don't know if we're "scary" (I don't think anything involving sports is scary), but we're still at odds wit England for 6N winners next years (behind Wales) and at odds with Wales to win the next RWC (behind the big three and England), according to bookies. Not bad for a side that, as you rightly point out, is the worst in many years.

And I don't really understand how this breakaway would stop international competition? Could you elaborate?

 

[ratsapprentice]

And I don't really understand how this breakaway would stop international competition? Could you elaborate?

Because the clubs (or whatever body runs the competition) are businesses, it is not in their interests to bolster international rugby.
The clubs have seen how much revenue the EPL generates and want an equivalent.
Private club systems are fundamentally at odds with international (Union) systems.

 

[Amiga500]

And I don't really understand how this breakaway would stop international competition? Could you elaborate?

If they can operate outside the IRB, why would they release their assets (players) when it would:

- deny the clubs direct income from the player's influence in winning games.
- risk the players getting injured.
- dilute the support base for any matches played during the international window.


It already happens with Pacific Islanders playing in Europe, they don't play many internationals as the clubs oppose their release.

 

[erwanseb]

Because the clubs (or whatever body runs the competition) are businesses, it is not in their interests to bolster international rugby.
The clubs have seen how much revenue the EPL generates and want an equivalent.
Private club systems are fundamentally at odds with international (Union) systems.

I certainly do not think that clubs are at odds with international rugby, the branding power of international rugby is second to none. Clubs will never sacrifice this marketing power but international rugby represent a core of at best 300 players across 10 teams.

It does not provide a sufficient amount of jobs and revenues to consolidate the pyramid. International rugby is the flashy icing on the cake, but only a strong club system can provide the cake core. You can't create an appeal for a rugby carreer with all the sacrifices it implies with a mere 300 discriminatory (per nationality) jobs on offer.

Even as a young rugby player in the SH, would you consider choosing rugby as a carreer path if the job market was only the few rugby super XV franchises with oldies grabbing their spots as if it was their lifeline.

Having an escape route toward European rugby provides a safety net and a constant renewal of players.
A (professional) sport can grow only if professional players can make a living out of it, international rugby is too scarce and risky to guarantee a living from rugby.

As soon as the choice of a professional rugby was made, creating a fully mature job market became the necessary condition of development.

It does not make life perfect but club system is the only way, you still need some regulators to guarantee fairness, competitivity, players welfare,.... And this is where the unions have to step in but they should stay out of all marketing and commercial aspects of the game.

My view, might not be shared by all but you can't have both a professional commercial sport and a union governed one, if you want the latest then the sport should have remained amateur.

 

[ratsapprentice]

My view, might not be shared by all but you can't have both a professional commercial sport and a union governed one, if you want the latest then the sport should have remained amateur.

Not to keep harping on about it, but have you not seen the NZ system?

There is no reason why a union cannot run a domestic competition.
It is in their own interests to accommodate a competitive, financially profitable system.

The trouble with giving the clubs independence is that the international game in effect, becomes a competitor to their product.
So the international game has no security whatsoever.

As opposed to the top-down pyramidal structure, where the Unions don't just have a vested interest in a domestic game - they cannot survive without one.

 

[erwanseb]

Not to keep harping on about it, but have you not seen the NZ system?

There is no reason why a union cannot run a domestic competition.
It is in their own interests to accommodate a competitive, financially profitable
.

Precisely, the NZ system is the perfect machine to optimize international results but its is practically exactly the same today as it was almost 20 years ago (forget the exact year when super XV started).

The second, more contentious comment is that the NZ system would not have survived without the constant player drain from Europe. This drain of aging star player has allowed a permanent and fast renewal of franchises and provided significant end of careers revenues for a lot of players, which has increased the appeal of a rugby career and allowed the NZ union to thrive on the AB results and appeal.

Without this end of career carrot, I seriously doubt the economic model could have been sustained relatively to other much more lucrative professional careers, in sport, science, business or any others.

But this system has absolutely not interest whatsoever at developing and employing players if they can't play for the ABs.
A club will not look at you passport or your name, only your abilities and this non discriminatory employment practice is infinitely superior for the development of the sport, while being a short term drag on your national team results.

 

[Ospreylian]

The Pro12 clubs trying to make the English/French nervous by holding out would have been like a human having a hold-your-breath contest with a whale. You're going to hurt yourself a lot faster than you will hurt the whale.

You know a thread is about to get heated when the wildlife analogies are brought out.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Word on the street is that the WRU are offering temporary central contracts to players out of contract in Wales.

 

[McTallshort]

So the welsh regions have broke ranks, won't be long now the French union will back its clubs and the irb will agree to santion the new competition. Its all over for the ERC a rich company that's not meant to be making money.

 

[Prestwick]

Word on the street is that the WRU are offering temporary central contracts to players out of contract in Wales.

Confirmed. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24647172 .

Also this interesting snippet:

Its offer comes as a European Rugby Cup Limited (ERC) meeting for stakeholders was taking place in Dublin on Wednesday, a meeting representatives of the English and French clubs said they would boycott.
BBC Wales Sport understands that Stuart Gallacher, the chief executive of Regional Rugby Wales, the umbrella organisation for the Welsh regions, did not attend the meeting either.

So the English, French and Welsh clubs all boycotted the meeting. Must have been a pretty lonely two hours of the usual ERC meeting activities (twister, trivial pursuit followed by a nap).

 

[Tony Manx]

Daily Telegraph today......[TABLE="width: 460"]
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[TD]UBS analysts unnerved BT Group investors by cutting the telecoms company to "sell":
We worry BT will not recoup the £450m pa it will spend on BT Sport and TV. We do not believe the addressable market is as large as the company thinks. That leaves BT with a problem, either it must console itself with the current slow take up of BT Sport or spend more on content to target Sky Sports subs. At best that means a wholesale Sky Sports deal but weaker KPIs, at worst it limits UK price inflation, raises rights costs and could even mean a price war.
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[gaston le gaff]

It's nearly over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Packman]

Sorry French dudes, didn't meant to wind you up. I stand by my statement though, I thought about explaining, but a) this isn't the right thread, b) just look at the results c)If someone said that about England I'd be saying the exact same thing as you are.

 

[Packman]

I wonder what the lack of any report from the ERC meeting means? I was quite pleased when I found the ERC minutes on the net but then found out that they referred to the Eastern Regional Committee (ERC) for the National Council for Teacher Education (NCTE) in India. Still, it made a lot of sense and I feel we should adopt it as the new template for a European rugby competition called THE SPARKLY SNAZZ SUPER CHAMPION CUP THAT'S EVEN BIGGER THAN THAT BLEDISLOE CUP WHAT THEY GOT IN NEW ZEALAND, SO THERE, CUP also known as the SSSCCTEBTTBCWTGINZ cup for short.

Anyway on a fairly serious note. the ERC meeting has been had, we haven't had a statement either way (yet) and the longer that goes on, the more likely it is that the decision was to fight and they are lobbying behind the scenes before releasing their own double barrel shotgun blast of a statement. In the meantime PRL are releasing statements daily just like they did just before the RFU kicked their ass in court over the November test release dates. Go figure.

If we end up with two rubbish competitions then I reckon the one on Sky sports will win the ratings war. It's cheaper and people like me won't pick BT just because we're bitter and twisted and having an almighty strop.
I will suffer the god awful arrogance of Stuart Barnes and Dewi Morris rather than the endlessly more up beat and entertaining Ben Kay and Austin Haley in the name of supporting rugby over accountancy. And don't get me started about the merits of that slimey Graham Simmons and his two faced player/coach interviews compared to the cute blonde welsh chick on BT (she's even got breasts. Graham Simmon's hasn't got breasts. I hope rugby understands what I'm giving up for it).
There ya go Sky Sports, you have my support and I'm sure I've done a great job of selling your miserable hides and bulldog chewing a wasp presentation style to the paying public. You're welcome.

Seriously? Okay. To hell with all you money grabbing corporate usurpers. You've ruined the best rugby tournament in the world. Why don't you stamp on a few kittens while you're at it you evil SOBs.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sky Sports is cheaper? :huh:
BT Sport is £12 a month on Sky (free on BT), Sky sports is £22 a month if you have Sky or £20 a month on BT.

 

[ratsapprentice]

SkySports also has double the amount of regular channels and a 3d channel.

 

[Peat]

If they continued holding the meeting, you have to ask why. One possible explanation I've heard is that many contracts have an arbitration clause in - as in, those who are part of the contract should undertake arbitration before heading to legal action. I don't expect to see legal action - but it is an interesting point. The RCC looks a lot more plausible now but there are still clearly a lot of issues to be sorted.