Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[St George]

Please, please close the thread on this.

I'm sorry, but this is a rather feable reply to a non-abusive comment. The fact you do not like a comment does not warrant the need to close a thread that is still rather active. The Mods have the powers to deal with issues without dictatorial censorship.


The fact is, some people have had their heads up their a**** instead of looking at the blindingly obvious, that the ERC run HC was as good as doomed as soon as the two biggest nations pulled out. Keep going on about how the Irish have faired very well in the comp was insignificant. To have a HC without the Franglais was just the Rabo12, and any suggestion that the RFU & French Union would kick out their top teams and breadwinners and go along with the lower division teams was pure fantasy dreaming from desperate posters who just want to see the PRL fail.

I'm glad that common sense looks like it will prevail, and we can get back to the Rugby.

 

[BasqueBete]

The name of the competition does not have the word Europe in it
The name of the game once the rabble decided to refuse to listen to Anglo French requests was smash the ****** to smithereens, which has been achieved very easily..
History repeats itself..

 

[j'nuh]

Welsh running mindlessly into this tournament whereas it's likely the other unions were trying to negotiate a better deal. So not only have the Welsh left themselves with a lower earning potential from this tournament they have also left the other unions in a position where they will have to accept **** all money to participate in a European trophy. So yes pretty stupid!

But there was a deadline for clubs to announce their interest in the new tournament. If the Anglo-French are bluffing about the deadline, then perhaps the Welsh could have passed the deadline and still negotiated further. Or perhaps the Anglo-French aren't bluffing and the Welsh would have lost hundreds of thousands by failing to join up. If I were Welsh, I would be beyond infuriated had the Welsh not joined before the deadline. The risk they'd have ran by failing to join the new tournament would register somewhere between losing a lot of good players, and administration/collapse. The funding shortage would have been so severe, it would have been a striking blow to the Welsh in both short and long-term.

Truth is, what could they have possibly gained by holding out? The English and French clubs could afford to wait it out for years in order for the others' involvement. The vast majority of the top clubs in England and France are either running a profit, or are backed by wealthy owners. Spending a few years waiting for the others to join would have been an easy proposition for the vast majority. The Pro12 clubs trying to make the English/French nervous by holding out would have been like a human having a hold-your-breath contest with a whale. You're going to hurt yourself a lot faster than you will hurt the whale.

And let's say both parties did hold out. If the current offer extended to the Pro12 teams was an equal share in the new tournament... let's say a year passes. The Pro12 teams are now in the midst of worrying about a funding shortage through not having a unified European tournament. They come back and start negotiating again. What stops the English/French at this point saying, "Well, we were going to offer you an equal share. But that was a year ago. Now we'll offer you less than that. You can either agree to it, or maybe you'd rather another year of funding shortage." What exactly can the Pro12 teams do? Time isn't their ally. Without unified Europe, the French/English may stagnate, but the others will downright suffer, and this increasingly weakens their bargaining position.

 

[Amiga500]

Ha ha, so the welsh are stupid...etc

Well, there are wheels within wheels here.


I think the long term WRU goal was to take over the regions, akin to how the Irish provinces exist. Given that, despite my earlier rant, it is somewhat understandable the regions would look to an income source outside of the WRU's control (and they have found somewhat of a kindred spirit in the PRL fighting with their union for more money].

Now... what do the WRU do? Cut the funding to the regions? [in essence, cutting them out of the Welsh structure] and build new superclubs under their umbrella, or do they decide to accept this RCC.


As always, divide and conquer works well. There is no doubt that the bargaining hand of the Celtalians has been very much weakened by this move [unless the WRU go nuclear and decide to cut the regions adrift - which I consider very unlikely].

 

[Prestwick]

I think the WRU's idea of provincial super clubs was a pipe dream anyway and it's been this underlying mistrust that has hobbled the pro ERC camp ever since this whole saga started: that there has always been a fifth column within the Celtic sides that would be ready to jump sides when it's existence was threatened.

Naturally, many supporters in Wales may blame us in England for RRW's defection but one must beg the question: surely the campaign waged by Roger Lewis and those before him to eliminate the traditional welsh clubs one by one has forced RRW's hand here?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm sorry, but this is a rather feable reply to a non-abusive comment. The fact you do not like a comment does not warrant the need to close a thread that is still rather active. The Mods have the powers to deal with issues without dictatorial censorship.


The fact is, some people have had their heads up their a**** instead of looking at the blindingly obvious, that the ERC run HC was as good as doomed as soon as the two biggest nations pulled out. Keep going on about how the Irish have faired very well in the comp was insignificant. To have a HC without the Franglais was just the Rabo12, and any suggestion that the RFU & French Union would kick out their top teams and breadwinners and go along with the lower division teams was pure fantasy dreaming from desperate posters who just want to see the PRL fail.

I'm glad that common sense looks like it will prevail, and we can get back to the Rugby.

Sarcasm is lost on you my friend! It was meant as a joke. The incredibly hypocritical comment summed up what much of this thread has been, a ******* contest where people post before they think.

But there was a deadline for clubs to announce their interest in the new tournament. If the Anglo-French are bluffing about the deadline, then perhaps the Welsh could have passed the deadline and still negotiated further. Or perhaps the Anglo-French aren't bluffing and the Welsh would have lost hundreds of thousands by failing to join up. If I were Welsh, I would be beyond infuriated had the Welsh not joined before the deadline. The risk they'd have ran by failing to join the new tournament would register somewhere between losing a lot of good players, and administration/collapse. The funding shortage would have been so severe, it would have been a striking blow to the Welsh in both short and long-term.

Truth is, what could they have possibly gained by holding out? The English and French clubs could afford to wait it out for years in order for the others' involvement. The vast majority of the top clubs in England and France are either running a profit, or are backed by wealthy owners. Spending a few years waiting for the others to join would have been an easy proposition for the vast majority. The Pro12 clubs trying to make the English/French nervous by holding out would have been like a human having a hold-your-breath contest with a whale. You're going to hurt yourself a lot faster than you will hurt the whale.

And let's say both parties did hold out. If the current offer extended to the Pro12 teams was an equal share in the new tournament... let's say a year passes. The Pro12 teams are now in the midst of worrying about a funding shortage through not having a unified European tournament. They come back and start negotiating again. What stops the English/French at this point saying, "Well, we were going to offer you an equal share. But that was a year ago. Now we'll offer you less than that. You can either agree to it, or maybe you'd rather another year of funding shortage." What exactly can the Pro12 teams do? Time isn't their ally. Without unified Europe, the French/English may stagnate, but the others will downright suffer, and this increasingly weakens their bargaining position.

There is always also the possibility that they could go to a negotiation table and say we'll join your competition for X many more millions and so on. The English and French want a European competition and what would a European competition be without the likes of Ospreys, Scarlets and the Irish provinces. I can only hope that's what the IRFU are doing, as long as the IRFU get three teams in the competition, which is what we deserve with our performance in the Pro 12, and bring in around the same amount of money that they brought in in the HEC I'll be happy.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Well, there are wheels within wheels here.


I think the long term WRU goal was to take over the regions, akin to how the Irish provinces exist. Given that, despite my earlier rant, it is somewhat understandable the regions would look to an income source outside of the WRU's control (and they have found somewhat of a kindred spirit in the PRL fighting with their union for more money].

Now... what do the WRU do? Cut the funding to the regions? [in essence, cutting them out of the Welsh structure] and build new superclubs under their umbrella, or do they decide to accept this RCC.


As always, divide and conquer works well. There is no doubt that the bargaining hand of the Celtalians has been very much weakened by this move [unless the WRU go nuclear and decide to cut the regions adrift - which I consider very unlikely].

Word of the street is that the WRU fully back the regions stance on this.

 

[Prestwick]

Word of the street is that the WRU fully back the regions stance on this.

If that's a fact then thank God sanity has finally broken out in Cardiff!!!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Word of the street is that the WRU fully back the regions stance on this.

Expect a statement shortly on the matter. As you said Olyy that is word on the street.

People must remember if the deal is in the best interest for the Welsh regions who can blame them for accepting the offer on the table and jumping ship.

A lot of people are reading quite deeply into this with a lot of ifs and buts. Sadly these don't pay the bills.

 

[Amiga500]

I can only hope that's what the IRFU are doing, as long as the IRFU get three teams in the competition, which is what we deserve with our performance in the Pro 12, and bring in around the same amount of money that they brought in in the HEC I'll be happy.

If they are gonna uproot the foundations, I'd rather they went with something akin to:

Premiership: 7 teams
Top14: 7 teams
Ireland: 1 team
Wales: 1 team
Scotland: 1 team
Italy: 1 team
Pro12: 4 teams

+ the previous winners = 24.

6 groups of 4. The pot is divvied up by team. Each entrant gets an equal amount. Whether their league or union chose to sub-divide that is up to them and them alone.


While many deride the current system for the unfair groups - having the 2 best runners up qualify along with the try bonus point approach means pretty much every game counts from the very start - not like the UEFA champions league which is full of dead rubbers and boredom.

 

[Amiga500]

Word of the street is that the WRU fully back the regions stance on this.

Okedokey.

That would then sideline the IRFU, SRU and FIR.

Assuming the RFU then go with the PRL, it also places the leadership of the FFR in an unenviable position.

 

[Prestwick]

I for one now really want to see the revenue breakdown in the final agreement! Want to see what caused Regional Rugby Wales to suddenly dive in headfirst into the Angle-French hot-tub of doom!

 

[Packman]

Hmm, bad news for rugby that the welsh clubs have broken ranks. Wait til either Cardiff or Llanelli miss the rabo cut though, then their fans will be moaning. There'll be either a stupidly low qualification cut off or lots of angry Welshmen. If the new comp does have a low qualification point and PRL and LNR go for it then we all know the real reason for wrecking the ERC was £158,000,000 from BT. (hell we know that anyway. the worry is what is going to happen next once the clubs have autonomy from the unions. I'm seriously worried about test match rugby and where a competitive England side will be in the PRL's priority list, Probably the same place that Chelsea FC place the English football team. )

Well today is the day. The Irish, Italians and Scots have one chance to talk the welsh clubs round. A united front will bring England and France back into the fold because an Anglo-France competition won't satisfy BT. I've been watching French rugby and the gradual erosion of the national team from the 2007 RWC to the present day where France are a bit of a joke and about as scary as a baby gerbil. The RFU need to draw a line on the sand early (they should have done it the same week as the IRB issued their statement) and be prepared to let the PRL clubs go or be left with the same pathetic international competition as rugby league. Just watch how the Scottish rugby league side goes next week. the welsh regions have basically given Scottish rugby a shove into the coffin. And for the record I'll be cancelling my 12 month contract with BT at the end of august next year. They've helped ruin international rugby, I'm not going to pay them a penny more than they are owed.

 

[BasqueBete]

Genrerla erosion of French national team since 2007 ?

Should have won the 2011 RWC if it wasn't for Joubert....whereas Wales was only other NH team to go beyond the Qtrs..

 

[Peat]

And England reached the 2007 final, but were still crap. One-offs mean little.

 

[BasqueBete]

Ok, France reached 6 semi finals in 7 tournaments, reached the final three times
Ireland have never reached the semi finals and have failed to ever reach the semi finals

I would like to say Ireland had at least achieved a one off, but I can't...

Lmfao

 

[BasqueBete]

Sorry, typo there

Was Meant to say Ireland have never reached the semi finals and have failed to each the qtrs at two tournaments....

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh why can't you simply edit your post instead of double posting ... oh the pain!

 

[Peat]

Shoulda gone to specsavers mate, that's an English flag in my profile.

edit: Still, nice to know you don't have an actual counter-argument to use, just misplaced ad hominems.

 

[Tony Manx]

Genrerla erosion of French national team since 2007 ? .

I would also add that part, if not all, the reason for the lapse in French prowess has to do with some very strange selection and game plan choices made by Lievremont and PSA and not necessarily all to do with foreign imports!!