Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[McTallshort]

Unions only? Mate your deluded

 

[Prestwick]

If all three leagues get an equal say then I don't actually have any major issue.

Me neither. At the end of the day, its an equal split. The clubs of England and France and the (usually) united position of the Celtic Unions having equal representation. The RFU don't need to be on the board. As long as they have an agreement with the clubs covering player release, welfare and other club-union issues then I don't see why they need to stick their oar into European club​ rugby.

 

[erwanseb]

Me neither. At the end of the day, its an equal split. The clubs of England and France and the (usually) united position of the Celtic Unions having equal representation. The RFU don't need to be on the board. As long as they have an agreement with the clubs covering player release, welfare and other club-union issues then I don't see why they need to stick their oar into European club​ rugby.

exactly,
referees, discipline, anti-doping program, fairness of the overall competition are Irb/UNions restricted domain.
the rest, marketing, organization and commercial aspects to clubs

 

[Amiga500]

Sorry guys, I know what your saying but disagree with it.

Once the clubs would become big enough to exist outside the unions, they would immediately try and do so. Which would royally screw things up.


Unless they managed to agree on player release for X number of games per year and welfare etc for 100 years sort of thing. A 10 year agreement is no use at all.

 

[Packman]

Yeeeeaaah.... because first having a strong Treviso + either Viadana or Gran Parma with no Italian stars and then a strong Treviso and Arione/Zebre with few Italian stars has helped catapult Italy into the international top ten how exactly?

Give me a break. Italy improved because they have a policy of feeding their talent to the English and French teams as well as Treviso.

It's madness to suggest that Italy, with participation booming, talent increasing and looking forward to packing big soccer stadiums this autumn and spring will suddenly collapse because only Treviso will be guaranteed RCC participation.

Also, you appear to be making disrespecting the second tier amlin cup/future replacement an art form at the moment.

Zebre and Edinburgh won't vanish into the abyss as they will be playing top English, French and Celtic sides who didn't make the RCC cut that year.

Stop with the hysteria already.

Italy have beaten France and Ireland recently and have embarrassed England. In fact this year's England v Italy game put the writing on the wall for what happened in Cardiff a week later. France didn't win a five nations trophy for decades so wheel yer neck back in Preswick or your big head will get chopped off. No progress? Jesus wept. Cutting the number of players being exposed to elite European competition in half will effect the Italian and Scottish national sides that's common sense. if someone proposed the same for the PRL clubs and their fans would go nuts and you know it. Look at the big picture will ya.

 

[Prestwick]

Italy have beaten France and Ireland recently and have embarrassed England. In fact this year's England v Italy game put the writing on the wall for what happened in Cardiff a week later. France didn't win a five nations trophy for decades so wheel yer neck back in Preswick or your big head will get chopped off. No progress? Jesus wept. Cutting the number of players being exposed to elite European competition in half will effect the Italian and Scottish national sides that's common sense. if someone proposed the same for the PRL clubs and their fans would go nuts and you know it. Look at the big picture will ya.

I think someone needs to calm down.

I didn't say that Italy haven't progressed, I said they've progressed via pushing quality players into the Premiership and the Top 14. Before the Italian entry into the Pro 12 the Italian sides simply weren't good enough and had few Italian stars as they'd usually follow their friends into England or France. Thus, the effect of the Heineken Cup on Italian rugby via its own clubs like Treviso and others has been negligible at best whilst the effect of the Heineken Cup on Italian rugby via its stars playing for Stade Francais, Saracens, Leicester, etc has been transformative to say the least.

TL;DR version: Italy's elite players got better playing for epic teams and not by playing for the Italian whipping boys of yesteryear. You're gonna learn a lot more from winning with a well drilled and highly talented team than from a 40-3 drubbing with Viadana.

What you've covered there only confirms what I've already said: that Italian rugby was strong and is getting stronger with or without European rugby because, like the majority of the Italian squad on that glorious day in 2011, many of Italy's elite rugby squad either play for currently - or have played for in the past for a substantial period - English and French cups. It also confirms that Italian rugby won't collapse as a result of Zebre being denied automatic qualification to the Heineken Cup. Remember, by the looks of it there doesn't appear to be anything stopping Zebre from playing very well in the Pro12 and getting into the top seven with Trevisio to qualify or playing very well in the successor to the Amlin Cup, winning that and gaining qualification via that. Why are you so afraid of two Italian sides playing consistently well? You're not a Munster fan in disguise...are you?

Italy losing an automatic qualifying place in the Pro 12 won't be the end of the world. Get over it.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Yeah, I'd agree. It isn't doing Zebre any good to be in the Heineken Cup at the moment, aside from the financial benefits they're reaping. To be honest the need to start getting competitive in the league before they start thinking of anything else.

There's a lot of mad talk going on here and an awful lot of scare mongering. Fact of the matter is that it's good for the international game to have a highly competitive club scene. More merit based qualification requirements for Europe in the Pro 12 will bring about a more competitive league and therefore be of long term benefit to the Celtic and Italian sides. If they can keep on a level financially with the English and French sides (and I think that the Celtic Unions need to start being a bit more pro-active in this regard) then there's no problem.

 

[St George]

Sorry guys, I know what your saying but disagree with it.

Once the clubs would become big enough to exist outside the unions, they would immediately try and do so. Which would royally screw things up.


Unless they managed to agree on player release for X number of games per year and welfare etc for 100 years sort of thing. A 10 year agreement is no use at all.

I dont see that at all. Comparisons keep being made with football in a negative way, but similar splitting of various factions occurred in 1992 with the top clubs resigning from the Football League. This meant far more money goes to the top clubs and less to the lower leagues. Internationals are still the top in as far as importance, and its all still overseen and administered by the FA.

I think there is too much doom and gloom predictions based on speculation.

 

[Amiga500]

Internationals are still the top in as far as importance, and its all still overseen and administered by the FA.

:mellow:

Not sure if you are you trying to be sarcastic or not...

 

[Feicarsinn]

:mellow:

Not sure if you are you trying to be sarcastic or not...

He's right though. It's World Cups and European Championships where players truly earn their status as greats. There might be more money in the club game, but the prestige that goes with international football is still untouchable. That is, as long as FIFA stop trying to make arses of themselves.

 

[Peat]

I just wrote a really long and pointless post. So I'm editing it down to this - the competitiveness of the Pro 12 is mainly important only for the money and public interest it can gain for the relevant teams. Thats it. I think it can take a pretty big swing either way without effecting the actual effectiveness of the international teams.

Similarly, its a fair point to say Italy's inclusion in the HEC is mostly important on the same grounds. I think the effects of pro competition vs everything before in terms of making a top level rugby player are greatly exaggerated, and the best way to get a top pro competition is producing lots of top rugby players. Not saying its unimportant - but the development of Italy isn't in how well Aironi or whoever does, its about how good their academies are.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I can't believe people are looking at the EPL and wanting Rugby to emulate it.

 

[Packman]

I think someone needs to calm down.

I didn't say that Italy haven't progressed, I said they've progressed via pushing quality players into the Premiership and the Top 14. Before the Italian entry into the Pro 12 the Italian sides simply weren't good enough and had few Italian stars as they'd usually follow their friends into England or France. Thus, the effect of the Heineken Cup on Italian rugby via its own clubs like Treviso and others has been negligible at best whilst the effect of the Heineken Cup on Italian rugby via its stars playing for Stade Francais, Saracens, Leicester, etc has been transformative to say the least.

TL;DR version: Italy's elite players got better playing for epic teams and not by playing for the Italian whipping boys of yesteryear. You're gonna learn a lot more from winning with a well drilled and highly talented team than from a 40-3 drubbing with Viadana.

What you've covered there only confirms what I've already said: that Italian rugby was strong and is getting stronger with or without European rugby because, like the majority of the Italian squad on that glorious day in 2011, many of Italy's elite rugby squad either play for currently - or have played for in the past for a substantial period - English and French cups. It also confirms that Italian rugby won't collapse as a result of Zebre being denied automatic qualification to the Heineken Cup. Remember, by the looks of it there doesn't appear to be anything stopping Zebre from playing very well in the Pro12 and getting into the top seven with Trevisio to qualify or playing very well in the successor to the Amlin Cup, winning that and gaining qualification via that. Why are you so afraid of two Italian sides playing consistently well? You're not a Munster fan in disguise...are you?

Italy losing an automatic qualifying place in the Pro 12 won't be the end of the world. Get over it.

Here;s the italian team that beat ireland, lets see how many of these players actually play in england and france...

Italy:
15 Andrea Masi, - Wasps
14 Giovambattista Venditti, Zebre
13 Gonzalo Canale, La Rochele
12 Gonzalo Garcia, Zebre
11 Luke McLean, Treviso
10 Luciano Orquera, Zebre
9 Edoardo Gori, Treviso
8 Sergio Parisse, Stade Francaise
7 Simone Favaro, Treviso
6 Alessandro Zanni, Treviso
5 Joshua Furno, Biaritz
4 Quintin Geldenhuys, Zebre
3 Lorenzo Cittadini, Treviso
2 Leonardo Ghiraldini (c) Treviso
1 Andrea Lo Cicero. Racing metro

Replacements:
16 Davide Giazzon, Zebre
17 Michele Rizzo, Treviso
18 Alberto de Marchi, Treviso
19 Antonio Pavanello, Treviso
20 Francesco Minto, Treviso
21 Paul Derbyshire, Treviso
22 Tobias Botes, B]Treviso[/B]
23 Tommaso Benvenuti. Perpignan

Wow, how about that. turns out you don't know what you're talking about. Who knew!?! :iamwithstupid3jd:

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If Zebre weren't in the HEC, they'd be in the Amlin. It's not like by not having them in the HEC they just wouldn't be playing European rugby.
There's a large number of sides in the Amlin better than Zebre, so it's not like they'd just cruise their way to the trophy.
There is no reason Zebre should be in the HEC other than sides in their group wanting them to stick around so they get an easy 8-10 pts each year.

 

[Prestwick]

If Zebre weren't in the HEC, they'd be in the Amlin. It's not like by not having them in the HEC they just wouldn't be playing European rugby.
There's a large number of sides in the Amlin better than Zebre, so it's not like they'd just cruise their way to the trophy.
There is no reason Zebre should be in the HEC other than sides in their group wanting them to stick around so they get an easy 8-10 pts each year.

Exactly, it's not as if they're being banished from Europe for all eternity and if they play well then they'll be back in the HEC.

And Packman, well done on selectively interpreting both my reply and current data!

We're not talking about the here and now! We're taking about how Italy got to where they are today. Look at the team which beat France in 2011. The majority of them either played for overseas teams OR had played a good chunk of their rugby for such teams in the past.

Half of that starting XV which beat Ireland play for French and English clubs and another two or three at least had played for such clubs in the past. So what exactly is your point?

At the end of the day it is sadly obvious that you're just trolling. I wish you all the best in the ball pool while myself, Oly and the rest of the adults talk about the real issues

 

[Amiga500]

We're not talking about the here and now! We're taking about how Italy got to where they are today. Look at the team which beat France in 2011. The majority of them either played for overseas teams OR had played a good chunk of their rugby for such teams in the past.

In 2011 the two Italian teams have been in the Pro 12 for a full 6 months.


Did you expect them to have by that stage already rolled out a conveyor belt of talent up to the international team?

 

[Amiga500]

He's right though. It's World Cups and European Championships where players truly earn their status as greats. There might be more money in the club game, but the prestige that goes with international football is still untouchable. That is, as long as FIFA stop trying to make arses of themselves.

So, why do players continually withdraw from the qualifiers and the equivalent of the Autumn Internationals?

 

[Prestwick]

In 2011 the two Italian teams have been in the Pro 12 for a full 6 months.


Did you expect them to have by that stage already rolled out a conveyor belt of talent up to the international team?

Not sure why you're asking me considering that it was Packman who originally made the "point" about Italy beating France and how they did so well apparently for another reason I couldn't quite work out and certainly not because their players learnt their trade with overseas clubs!

My points still stand though: Italian rugby won't be harmed by Zebre losing automatic HEC qualification, that Zebre will still be in European rugby and that Italy is doing very well as it is.

Finally, you learn more winning with a great team like Munster or Toulouse than it is to get whipped by 40 points in crap team.

 

[dullonien]

It should be quite obvious that it would be better for Zebre to be in the second tier while they build an academy and team that can compete in the first tier. Having a genuine chance to win some games instead of getting thrashed will be beneficial to the development of the players and the club. If/when they are strong enough to compete, then they will also be strong enough to challenge for a top 7 spot in the Pro12, thus gaining qualification.

However, it needs to be made sure that funding isn't cut, because without funding they will struggle to develop.

I think the same is true for Edinburgh, Dragons and Connacht.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I can't believe people are looking at the EPL and wanting Rugby to emulate it.

+1

I think rugby should be learning from the mistakes of football rather than trying to copy it. An American pro sports model is the way to go in my opinion but that's deemed blasphemous in Europe.