England v France,23/02/13

[Jbobo]

Alas Tallshort, I think Teh Mite is after a bit of Celtic 'Rough'!

Yet you're the one who talks about shoving Lions up your arse.

And the name 'largejanner' - A name for compensating for something if i ever saw one. Poor little fellah

 

[mstar]

I went to Twickenham and I wanted to watch the game on TV from start to finish before I do my ratings.

Alex Goode 7
Played with great composure and skill, and very dependable, when Farrell injury was getting worse and worse he took some kicks. A great asset to the team with his game intelligence to read the game. However, he lacks the pace to really trouble defences, will always limit his overall effectiveness in the team.

Chris Ashton 5
I was looking at Ashton all game and all though his running lines to go looking for the ball are second to none, his tackling ability and overall defensive play are not up to international class at times. His miss tackles count in the 6N is worrying and I can see other sides see his side as a weak link. Seriously needs to improve to keep himself in the side. Really should of got more contact onto Fofana his positional play in that move will be questioned.

Manu Tuilagi 8
Manu is a HARD man, he had 19 stiches? but refused to go off. Just shows the determination of the man. His attacking threat is un-paralleled in the side and gives us an attacking platform. Took his try well and got the better of his opposite number.

Brad Barritt 8
What a performance, he had to close down basteruea (sp?) quick and tackle and kept him quiet. His tackling anyone dare to go down his channel is fantastic. I was looking at his contribution and you can see particularly in the first half how crucial he is to Lancaster. He runs the show in defense he commands the side well, and you can see he is respected as when he shouts for the formation others listen and move into position. VERY underrated and I REALLY cannot see how 12T can dislodge Barrit in the side. What I like about Barrit (other then his excellent rugby brain and technical ability) is his consistency and commitment; I will not be surprised he is in the Lions squad.

Mike Brown 6
Pinned back by the attacking French backs and wasn’t as much involved but did what was required of him and did it with no fuss. Can’t see him being challenged for his spot as he doing nothing wrong.

Owen Farrell 6
First half school boy aggression was a bit silly. I think the French full back said he thought he was a lunatic with his “YEAH COME ON” shouting all the time to his face, he thought he was a bit to excited and acting all tough boy lol Anyway had injury which affected his movement and kicking but no problems again he did what he normally does. However, question arises he never really troubles the gain line or opposition and questions about how can he un-lock a very very good defensive side? Ended leaving in pain, should be fit for Italy if he doesn’t get cited.

Ben Youngs 7
An okay game, France did their homework and made him rush his distribution. Had one poor first half pass, which he shouldn't of been doing, compared to Parra he is nowhere today. When his forwards are not dominating young’s struggles, and it kind of stops the combination of young’s and Farrell, other sides know this as Farrell doesn’t have much creativity/game management to get England moving when the forwards are not dominating.

Joe Marler 5
A little disappointing as was a little dominated by his opposite number in the scrum. He might feel dissapointed but he just isn’t corbs is he? Fail to see him in the loose.I would like to see Mako been given a chance as I think Marler is getting a little found out.

Dylan Hartley 4
Was brought in for his bulk and it well went missing? Got dominated by the scrum and his throws were wayward. I don’t want to be hard on Hartley but I think the problem is communication and understanding with Parling etc. Youngs missing and Hartley there is something not right. Hartley is an awesome thrower so whats going on?

Dan Cole 6
Not his greatest game, he got a little dominated in the scrum which is worrying as normally he is the rock in the scrum. As usual he comes into his own in the loose, not many front row people are as good as him in the loose and breakdown.

Joe Launchbury 8
His mobility and intelligence really is an asset to the team. Tackled tirelessly and was up against more physical locks/forwards but held his own. He is playing at such a high level I am not sure what England would do without him. A key player for England and does some great work in the loose which we don’t always see.

Geoff Parling 7
The line-out expert but why are our line-outs faltering? First youngs and now Hartley the problem must lie somewhere else. Is parling confusing them? Is his instructions and processes to many/complex? Somebody needs to work this out. Otherwise he again a key person in the loose and showed great intelligence in his play. Plays well with launchbury.

Courtney Lawes 4
Not sure what happened to Courtney he was unlucky as the French game plan was to attack the number 6 channel to a player who makes tackles (and may miss) and who isn’t an expert number 6. Was a bit worrying he doesn’t have the same menace in the breakdown as a natural 6 or 7. Unlucky for Lawes as much as he says to himself he likes playing as 6 I actually think he plays better as a lock. When he made contact he shattered the French but miss on fofana arrrrhhh Courtney your much better then this!!!

Chris Robshaw 8
When his team needed him he was there. I mean RIGHT THERE to take the fight. I was watching him closely in the first half and his communications you could lip read was to calm people down. He had words with Hartley when the scrum wobbled trying to get him through the difficult patch. He also was calling for the ball during the French dominant period to lead from the front and help his teammates get confidence again. More I watch him I am impressed, his workrate I don’t think there is a backrow who can rival him in the 6N. Rowntree commented that in wood and robshaw their isn’t anyone around who can out work them in terms of commitment and workrate. I agree.

Tom Wood 8
Helped his side when we had lineout wobbles with his athletic and great hands. His commitment/determination and unbelievable workrate will mean no opposite player will get one over him he is just too competitive and has to much fight to let anyone get one over him. Rowntree said this was Woods best game(?), as his competitive heart and never die attitude meant other sides just can’t control his contribution he makes to the side even as a 8 those qualities will mean he never get outplayed by the opposition at 6,7, or 8.


One thing we need Morgan back when he is not playing it shows we don’t have his go forward. Also, shame about Lawes he is my favourite player I can’t see him replacing JL or GP just yet. Also, the same problem arises Farrell is good at what he does but is not going to unlock defences and our Backline is probably the less feared in the 6N (other then Italy).

And Ashton? well lots been said already i just don't know about him anymore time for a change against Italy to see if anyone else shines.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Largejanner: can you please stop using graves instead of apostrophes please? Thanks.

Is there anyone here who wouldn't have Tom Youngs come straight back into the squad?
For Italy I'd have him, Mako and Hask come back into the starting line up.

I'd also like to see Brown either start at 15 or move across for a half, with some wing prospects on (May/Wade?) and also see 12T come on to play with Manu.

 

[mstar]

If i was Lancaster ratapprentice i would rest some players ready for the show down in Wales.

I agree youngs played well, but i like some analysis by ROwntree/lancaster why are we no good at lineouts and struggle in scrums at times. Is the problem with parling (we been told the lineout guru) or really is a problem with Youngs and Hartley?

 

[Teh Mite]

Consider how **** Thompson was as a club lineout thrower with Saints but he never missed for England - Once he joined Brive, Leeds and Wasps he also was immaculate.

The problem is with the lineout general.

 

[Peat]

The trophy itself has little value in France and England (they've won "too many" if that's possible), and now that Wales and Ireland have caught up, a championship win with no Grand Slam is of little value for them as well. Also, the trophy has only existed since 1993, hardly a tradition.
I say let's have a proper trophy for the Grand Slam winner, keep the secondary ones like the Triple Crown and the Calcutta Cup (that have more history than the 6N itself), and the minnor ones (like the Garibaldi trophy and others), and let's give the 6N trophy to... I don't know, charity.

Can't agree with this, I know I still value the trophy, I know a great many who don't care about the Triple Crown.

But doesn't the captain make those decisions and isn't that based on a game plan given by the coach? It's not that their 10 missed loads of kicks, he didn't get to take them. First ball into the corner was after 2 minutes, wasn't it? First ball between the sticks for England not so long ago, about 2 minutes. Different approach. Ireland tried to land a killer punch at the start, England would have notched up the points. Boring? Yes. But it can make the difference between winning or being on the end of the most one sided game I've seen in a while where the side on top lost. Even the Scottish coach said they shouldn't have won.

The captain's decisions were influenced by a very palpable distrust of his goalkicker and should not be taken as a normal representation of the tactics of Ireland.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah I definitely think we need to rest a couple, I think the game will allow for that though. If it goes as expected and we are comfortably ahead, then we should take a load of people off at half time, or earlier.
For example, Barritt could probably do with it, hence letting 12t have a good run out. Bring Morgan back on, but have Billy V on the bench so that we can let Ben ease back into it.


To be honest I think Hartley had an off day, Youngs had an off day in IRE and that there isn't that much of an issue generally, although it should definitely be better than it is.

 

[mstar]

Consider how **** Thompson was as a club lineout thrower with Saints but he never missed for England - Once he joined Brive, Leeds and Wasps he also was immaculate.

The problem is with the lineout general.

I been debating this as well. As much as we all get told how good Parling is is he confusing/introducing to much complexity for the throwers?? Hartley has a great record for England he looked lost.

QUestion is who else can call lineouts? Wood? JL? Robshaw? LAwes???

 

[Teh Mite]

Wood calls some at Saints, although Day and Sorrinson are considered the generals there. Some people tell me Lawes calls them, others say he doesn't. I've never noticed him do so.

I imagine Lauchberry doesn't purely as he's a junior player. I also can't recall the last time I even noticed Robshaw act as a jumper. Both I expect however could do it.

 

[Tony Manx]

Noves threatening to use some of his Internationsl against Toulon oon Saturday......that will please PSA!!!

 

[smb64]

Will Lacaster move Tuilagi to the wing to accommodate 36? -

- http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/england/22391.php

Lancaster explained: "We can always move Manu Tuilagi to the wing, and bring Billy in at centre.
"It's something we've been looking at and mulling over for a while, trying Manu on the wing.
"And Billy's abilities, form and temperament are something we can utilise as well.
"Brad and Manu work extremely well together, but we do want to look at different combinations and try different things.
"We might have a chance to do that in the next game."

It would be really interesting to see how that dynamic would work, but realistically i can't see it working Tuilagi would be wasted on the wing, he would't get enough ball

 

[j'nuh]

I'll add a third and fourth options for the bad lineout: poor lineout coaching and an off-day.

The scrum has been weak throughout though. Marler has looked weak, but Dan Cole has been exposed too. I hope Corbisiero gets back soon, still the best loosehead we have.

People calling to use wings like May (including Woodward!) - I'd love that, but you can't pick players that aren't in the squad. Even if you could, they haven't trained with England for the last few weeks. Our back 3 players are Goode, Brown, Foden, Ashton, Strettle, Joseph (kind of) and Monye (not sure about Monye, was called up as injury cover but it's unclear as to whether he stayed in and trained with England).

If Monye is in, I'd like Monye, Strettle and Brown
If not, Joseph in for Monye.

I just still can't comprehend why England didn't take 3 or 4 wingers at the start. :huh: We could have easily made room in the squad by trimming a backrower or two: Clark, Croft, Robshaw, Johnson, Wood, Haskell, Morgan and Waldrom. Launchbury could cover 6 too. Johnson and Croft out, Monye and another in.

EDIT: Tuilagi on the wing is something I'd like to see, but only after he's made a decent go of it at club level...

 

[nosevi]

Can't agree with this, I know I still value the trophy, I know a great many who don't care about the Triple Crown.

The captain's decisions were influenced by a very palpable distrust of his goalkicker and should not be taken as a normal representation of the tactics of Ireland.

Agree totally with the first half. Regarding the second bit, the Irish captain had distrust of his kicker before he even kicked the ball? What, 2 or 3 minutes into the game?!? Sorry, don't buy that, Peat.

 

[Aristodemus]

I think the lineout was just having an off-day against France to be honest. Hartley is a very good thrower as others have said but Tom Youngs isn't. We need to stick with Dylan I feel, I wouldn't attribute any blame his way either on the scrum. France have a good scrum and I felt Marler (mainly) and Cole were the guys having a hard time of it. Still it wasn't a disaster. I would love to see Lawes and Launchbury given a shot at lock, at least in the Italy game.
We need a natural number eight too. We should have been playing Vunipola or Easter imo after Morgan was injured. The Lawes at flanker experiment didn't work out. Backs are my main issue though. Youngs I think has had an excellent 6N, especially in Ireland. Farrell played his best game for England against Scotland but since then has been average. I would love to see Burns given a start, although I also think Flood is preferable to Farrell. At IC, I can appreciate Barritt is a rock in defence, but I value attacking ability much higher than that. I suspect if Fofana was English he would struggle to earn a place under SL. 36 and Tuilagi would result in many more tries being scored and a generally more expansive running game, but these guys are also very capable in defence too. The back three are our biggest weakness now I think, Brown is better at so much more things vital to a fullback, he needs to play while Foden is recovering form. This 6N could have been great for him but he is stuck out on a wing not achieving very much. As for wingers, I would stick with Ashton, his lines are brilliant in attack and if we gave him more good ball he would be scoring a shitload of tries. As for the other wing, May, Sharples, Strettle would all be deserving of a shot. I left out Wade because despite his great running skills, his size would make him a target. Players of that ilk need to be exceptional to be capable at international level i.e Robinson or Williams.

Edit: Tuilagi would be a waste on the wing as Fofana was for France.

 

[Teh Mite]

I dunno, Tuilagis brother has made a decent fist of it on the wing.

 

[RedruthRFC]

And the name 'largejanner' - A name for compensating for something if i ever saw one. Poor little fellah

I'm surprised nobody has picked up on the name before. The accusations of being a glory hunter seem pretty well founded, what on earth is a Janner doing with an Exeter crest beside his name? Where's the Albion / Devonport badge?

 

[BRSTLDRGN]

I'm surprised nobody has picked up on the name before. The accusations of being a glory hunter seem pretty well founded, what on earth is a Janner doing with an Exeter crest beside his name? Where's the Albion / Devonport badge?

I played at Devonport one, was a bit of hole tbh

 

[RedruthRFC]

I played at Devonport one, was a bit of hole tbh

I don't recall playing at a decent ground anywhere in the city, even Beacon Park was pretty ropey. Credit where it's due, Brickfields looks like it's turning in to an excellent facility.

All of which is besides my point, a Plymouth man flying the flag for Exeter - whatever next? Me with a Cornish Pirates badge beside my name?

 

[martinspoonboy1]

I think the lineout was just having an off-day against France to be honest. Hartley is a very good thrower as others have said but Tom Youngs isn't. We need to stick with Dylan I feel, I wouldn't attribute any blame his way either on the scrum. France have a good scrum and I felt Marler (mainly) and Cole were the guys having a hard time of it. Still it wasn't a disaster. I would love to see Lawes and Launchbury given a shot at lock, at least in the Italy game.
We need a natural number eight too. We should have been playing Vunipola or Easter imo after Morgan was injured. The Lawes at flanker experiment didn't work out. Backs are my main issue though. Youngs I think has had an excellent 6N, especially in Ireland. Farrell played his best game for England against Scotland but since then has been average. I would love to see Burns given a start, although I also think Flood is preferable to Farrell. At IC, I can appreciate Barritt is a rock in defence, but I value attacking ability much higher than that. I suspect if Fofana was English he would struggle to earn a place under SL. 36 and Tuilagi would result in many more tries being scored and a generally more expansive running game, but these guys are also very capable in defence too. The back three are our biggest weakness now I think, Brown is better at so much more things vital to a fullback, he needs to play while Foden is recovering form. This 6N could have been great for him but he is stuck out on a wing not achieving very much. As for wingers, I would stick with Ashton, his lines are brilliant in attack and if we gave him more good ball he would be scoring a shitload of tries. As for the other wing, May, Sharples, Strettle would all be deserving of a shot. I left out Wade because despite his great running skills, his size would make him a target. Players of that ilk need to be exceptional to be capable at international level i.e Robinson or Williams.

Edit: Tuilagi would be a waste on the wing as Fofana was for France.

Really?!

 

[mstar]

We need to come up with and try different options for lineout. We to reliant on parling what if he gets injured (next game)? where is Lancaster's succession planning? are we going to test that out against Wales? Teh mite commented Wood/Lawes MAYBE can be our lineout callers but we need to test this out soon i think. I am still standing by my call that JL and Lawes make better combination and would cause more problems for opposite teams.