WRU vs PRL - Deathmatch!

[Teh Mite]

WRU raps 'scandalous' player rule

Welsh Rugby Union group chief executive Roger Lewis has criticised Premier Rugby, the umbrella body for England's top clubs, over player access.

Premier Rugby says it will not release Welsh players playing in England until 35 days before the World Cup acting on International Rugby Board regulations.

"We're absolutely bemused, as is the rugby world, at the behaviour of Premier Rugby," Lewis told BBC Wales.

But Premier Rugby's Mark McCafferty says he is "staggered" by Lewis' view.

Both sides, the WRU and Premier Rugby, say they are unhappy with the others position.

Lewis said: "Premier Rugby Limited... has written to us but obviously the most important body in England is the Rugby Football Union, they are the governing body for the sport, and it's they we will talk to about this.

"To disadvantage them [players] from not being able to... play for their country at a Rugby World Cup is scandalous and I think it is deeply, deeply regrettable. It's absolutely extraordinary,"

Premier Rugby is within its rights to refuse to release players, a stance usually mirrored by French clubs, under IRB Regulation 9 which states that: "The Rugby World Cup assembly period begins 35 days prior to the start of the tournament during which warm-up matches may be played."

Regulation 9 also covers the November international window, allowing for three matches to be played during that month.

"I'm staggered frankly that it has been raised as an issue," said McCafferty, Premier Rugby's chief executive.

"We don't make these rules. The International Rugby Board makes these rules and … and my understanding is that the Welsh Rugby Union voted in favour of those new rules when those new rules were introduced in 2009.

"I'm just really disappointed that Roger Lewis has said he won't talk to us. We are having constructive discussions with a couple of other unions, and I'm sure this is not insurmountable.

"We are not going to stop any player preparing properly for his country for a World Cup.

"So it seems to us to have come out of the blue and particularly come out of the blue against a background where a) the Welsh Rugby Union wrote the rules and b) the chief executive [Lewis] won't speak to us."

With the majority of international teams opting to play four Tests in November there are almost always players caught in a club versus country predicament.

England-based Andy Powell, Dwayne Peel and Nicky Robinson were not named in Wales' autumn squad and are also unlikely to feature in World Cup plans as things stand, according to coach Warren Gatland.

"You look at players like Dwayne Peel and Andy Powell that we haven't considered at the moment because of unavailability for the Australia game, we may call them a little bit later and other players coming back
from injury," Gatland said.

"Not releasing players until the 4th of August next year from Premier Rugby is, for me, completely ridiculous when a lot of players will have been finished in May.

There was also a warning for players considering leaving Wales to play club rugby in other countries.

Wales and British and Irish Lions back James Hook has been linked with a move to French side Perpignan once his Ospreys contract runs out at the end of the season, with several English clubs also understood to be keen.

"One of the things I've said to these players is if you're going to go and play outside of Wales... make sure you have in your contract full release for games for Wales and squad sessions," Gatland said.

"Some of them have said they've got that or have verbal commitments but when it's really come down to it they haven't had anything, and that does make it difficult as coaches to sometimes pick those players if they're not available.

Wales begin their World Cup warm-up in earnest with home and away games against England on 6 and 13 August.

While Wales look likely to be without the likes of Powell, Peel, Robinson, and prop hopefuls Rhys Gill and Ben Broster, England will have no such limitations.

That is because England have been able to bypass the regulation after the Rugby Football Union paid Premier Rugby around £110m over eight years up to June 2016 to ensure beneficial player-access rights.

Wales chief Lewis says he will talk to the RFU to try and resolve the issue, but seems to have ruled out any deal to offer money to Premier Rugby for additional player access.

"We'll certainly speak to the Rugby Football Union but we're not going to negotiate on this, we're not going to be held to ransom... those days are well behind us in Wales," Lewis added.

"We have proper agreements in place and we behave honourably so, no, we're not going to negotiate, it's outrageous.

"That said, it's not a big issue for us in Wales because [most of] our players are playing in Wales.

"It's a big issue for Scotland because so many of their players are playing their rugby in England, but also it's a huge issue for countries such as Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Argentina - those countries.

"I think it is scandalous that this pressure is being put on those countries and it's a deeply sad day for rugby."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/9103528.stm

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So far as the WRU are concerned on this one, Pissups and Brewerys spring to mind.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Gatland warned about this to the players playing outside in England. The fact that PRL are acting as a bunch of kids and not allowing three or so players to be allowed to join the Welsh camp has meant they have lost out on playing for their country and for me thats disgusting. The same attitude would apply for me if it was the other way round. WRU are not asking for 100 Welsh players to be released just three or four. At the end of the day is mind games by both camps ahead of the WC.

 

[Teh Mite]

So are the WRU going to pay compensation to the Clubs for losing these players? I bet the answer is no.

The Welsh regions would hellaciously pissy if someone like Chris Ashton or Jouzioun played there and was called away outside the international windows. Funny that it is ALWAYS Wales that want the players in time slots when they're not entitled to them - This is nothing like the Haskell-England-Stade Menage et trois. Perhaps they should have voted against the agreed international timeslots instead of for them. Or have enough sense to send their lawyers along to any contract agreements which would give them any exception.

I especially like the part where Lewis says

Premier Rugby Limited... has written to us but obviously the most important body in England is the Rugby Football Union, they are the governing body for the sport, and it's they we will talk to about this

Let's give an idea what that says in the real world:

"The Inland revinue... has written to us but obviously the most important body in England is the Queen, they are the governing body for the Country, and it's they we will talk to about this

Idiot! :lol:

 

[munstermuffin]

Yet England give out when Wilkinson isn't released like this is sad for players who just want to play at highest level

 

[TRF_Cymro]

So are the WRU going to pay compensation to the Clubs for losing these players? I bet the answer is no.

The Welsh regions would hellaciously pissy if someone like Chris Ashton or Jouzioun played there and was called away outside the international windows. Funny that it is ALWAYS Wales that want the players in time slots when they're not entitled to them - This is nothing like the Haskell-England-Stade Menage et trois. Perhaps they should have voted against the agreed international timeslots instead of for them. Or have enough sense to send their lawyers along to any contract agreements which would give them any exception.

I especially like the part where Lewis says


Let's give an idea what that says in the real world:



Idiot! :lol:

You might find the Welsh regions are quite accommodating when it comes other international players.

Wales is not England and does not have the 'depth' that England possesses so what Lewis is asking for is not a massive thing. Wales want all their players available and I think thats only fair especially when its a World Cup Season. What is happening as Munstermuffin is saying is that its depriving players of international rugby and caps for their country which is silly. In the past WRU have paid regions / clubs for early release so I see no problem money wise.

 

[Teh Mite]

Yet England give out when Wilkinson isn't released like this is sad for players who just want to play at highest level

Not quite. The England lot in France have release clauses in their contracts - The French clubs are rightly ****** off about that but they had to allow them otherwise the players would never sign. The Welsh players however were never advised to get these clauses included into the contracts, so that's why they're kicking up stink. Without a pot to **** in.

Someone on 606 made me chuckle:

Let's put it this way... if you want to borrow my car I will damn well make sure that my interests are looked after first before I hand over the keys. Obviously the WRU think they should be able to have their own key & borrow it as they feel like!

You might find the Welsh regions are quite accommodating when it comes other international players.

Wales is not England and does not have the 'depth' that England possesses so what Lewis is asking for is not a massive thing. Wales want all their players available and I think thats only fair especially when its a World Cup Season. What is happening as Munstermuffin is saying is that its depriving players of international rugby and caps for their country which is silly. In the past WRU have paid regions / clubs for early release so I see no problem money wise.

Money is no replacement for a key player at a vital point in the season. I doubt the clubs who will be fighting for championships or survival would be quite so pragmatic in their viewpoint.

 

[munstermuffin]

Bullitt I heard it offically Saturday that Wilkinson didn't start against us as part of a deal with the RFU because there is flaws in his contract. Also Sackey hasn't clauses.

 

[Teh Mite]

It'll be in Wilkinsons contract that he has to have the same allowances as the rest of the EPS - All England internationals have to have 1 week off between the start of the season and the first AI. Same reason that Foden didn't play against Edinburgh (although he was recovering from a tweaking at the same time, it still counts).

However that's ******** about JW as he still came on as a sub.

 

[lynam1104]

Witch welshes players are key to English sides?

 

[dullonien]

This is not just about the Austrailia game, this is about the World Cup and the fact that PRL aren't allowing clubs to release their overseas players untill just 35 days before the world cup, even though the domestic season will have finished well before that date. In what way is that fair or right? The clubs aren't loosing the players for any important games, but they are basically stopping the players from representing their country in the WC, as preperation is hugely important, and the more time you can train as a squad, the more prepared and hopefully the better the team will play. Gatland has said that this ruling will make it difficult for him to select players playing in England, and I agree.

The PRL are a f**king joke, they should realise that if they continue this stupidity, no foreign players will want to sign for English clubs if they can help it. I've heard in the past that the individual clubs don't mind releasing players when they're asked for, but it's PRL that are stopping them to do so.

You don't see the same problems from players from other countries playing in Wales. Tommy Bowe and Nikki Walker never have any problems getting released from the Ospreys for example, even though the Ospreys already loose pretty much a full first team to Welsh duty. I think they realise that happy players will generally want to stay, whearas stopping them from playing for Ireland/Scotland will just mean they'll leave as soon as they can.

Hopefully common sense will prevail, but with PRL I doubt it.

 

[munstermuffin]

Not really b*llocks because why have him on bench if resting him and they knew deal was only half a game so they got him on pitch as fast as they could.
And the players should be allowed decide for themselves as noted The Ospreys never stop players. Leinster are same with Hines and so on

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Witch welshes players are key to English sides?

Powell at Wasps, Peel at Sale and Robinson at Gloucester are the ones that spring to mind, though arguably the latter 2 wouldn't be picked anyway.

 

[Teh Mite]

Not really b*llocks because why have him on bench if resting him and they knew deal was only half a game so they got him on pitch as fast as they could.

If the RFU stuck their oar in and said Wilkinson couldn't play, it would mean he couldn't play, not he had to be dropped to the bench but was fine to come on just after half time. Whoever gave you the "official reason" was talking out of their arsehole.

And the players should be allowed decide for themselves as noted The Ospreys never stop players. Leinster are same with Hines and so on

If you employed someone and they just decided to not turn up for work because of extra curricular activities, they wouldn't be in your employ much longer.

The Amateur era ended 20 years ago.

 

[dullonien]

That's not the same kinda thing and you know it Mite. Fine the clubs pay players wages, I understand that, and that's why I can understand to some extent clubs refusing to release players for any games that fall outside the international window in Autumn. However were getting more and more cases of PRL just being awkward because they can. There were issues with certain players getting released for Summer tours even though the domestic season was over. In what way does that harm the club? Not atall is the answer, and some clubs came out and admitted that it was PRL that insisted players not be released, while they were totally fine with it, why wouldn't they!

What's the point of refusing players to join up with their respective nations for the World Cup? In some cases, players will have finished their domestic season, yet still won't be allowed to go. As Lewis pointed out, this has a bigger impact on the likes of Sctland, Argentina, Fiji and Samoa than it does Wales. In what way is that fair on anybody, especially the players?

If PRL continue to only take the clubs interests into heart (well that's what they claim), then it won't be long untill one of three things happen. 1. foreign players stay away from the Aviva Premiership, lowering the quality of the league, and probably making the current system unsustainable, i.e. too many clubs. 2. foreign players will make sure there is a written clause in their contracts that allowes them to be released for international games and training camps, in which case what's the point of all this in the first place? 3. Foreign players will create their own union and challenge/strike against these stupid actions.

I think Roger Lewis has got it spot on. PRL are holding other unions to ransom for players playing in English teams. They succesfully did the same with the RFU, and are now trying to get money from the WRU, SRU etc. etc. That's not on in my book.

 

[Teh Mite]

They won't though will they.

On your points:
1. There's already a lot of bemoaning that there are far too many forigners in the Premiership (especially when everyone else is quick to point out how "England has more players then any other nation but still sucks LOL"). Maybe that'd solve that problem.
2. Why the hell didn't they do that in the first place?
3. Don't be soft, they're not coal miners / British Airways. The only times players go on strike is when they're not getting paid for the international duty. The clubs would just fire the players then everyone else will not offer them a contract as they wouldn't want a liability on the books.

The PRL acts as an umbrella - like a union as you mentioned earlier - so the Clubs have more clout when they get into debates with the various unions, especially with Club vs Country. The PRLs stance here is to keep the players fit for their job and stop the union just helping themselves to the players: A policy they will have developed since the Club vs Country row between the PRL and RFU. They argument is simple: The IRB states that the national squads have 35 days prior to the World Cup with their players. Gatland is bemoaning that the season finishes at the end of May. So this begs questions:

- How much time do they really need with the national team? Is 5 weeks not long enough?
- When are these players supposed to get some time off to heal and recuperate after only just finishing a long season then about to go into an even longer one?
- How long is it usually between release from their club and playing during the AIs or Six Nations? I bet the gap is barely any different.

This is a very clever stunt by Gatland and Lewis to get the Welsh public on their side rallying against "those oppressive English" so as to change the rules to suit them. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book.

 

[munstermuffin]

Bullitt on Wilkinson issue there was a deal brokered as I said. He played half Saturday will do so again and will be released early for world cup but in return he will be released early from training camps and Toulon will consider resting him in 2 games after 6N. I know it sounds confusing

 

[Teh Mite]

That sounds ridiculous, especially as he'll be rested twice between Feb and June anyway because of the French employment laws (1 week in 8 is a rest). I can't see how a player can be released earlier then the following weekend after a test match either.

 

[gingergenius]

Hold on here - 35 days? That's more than enough time to prepare for a world cup! It's the WRU's fault that they managed to agree to a fixture that requires preparation prior to this period.

The WRU are kicking up a fuss for absolutely nothing. Wales have more than enough depth to be able to cope without Powell, Peel and Robinson for one friendly match. That's all this is - you all talk of denying a player a chance of a cap, but it's a pretty cheap cap. The side that got pumped 62-5 by England in the August warm up before the last world cup was full of also-rans. I'm not sure Andy Powell will really care about missing out on one cap in a nothing match.

And yes, it is petty of the PRL not to release their players. But these rules are in place for a reason. And besides, the clubs also have seasons to prepare for while the world cup's going on and will want all their players there.

 

[munstermuffin]

Andy Powell would use a golf buggy if he had to for that cap

 

[dullonien]

Five weeks isn't all that much time leading up to the most important competition in the rugby calendar, one which only comes around every four years. I'm sure it 'could' be enough, but any extra time available is certainly a benefit and not a hindrance. Not playing in one game might not sound alot, but it gives a chance for Gatland to put a rule over the players, if some aren't there then that's certainly going to effect their chances of getting into the final WC squad (which is just 30 remember).

If anyone is naive enough to think this is to do with anything other than money, you need to look at what happened between the PRL and RFU. Enough money and anything is possible! Do you think Johnson will only get 35 days with his players before the WC? Doubt it.

Maybe players should have got propper clauses put into their contracts before signing, but many got verbal agreements (should be good enough between an amployer and amployee). I know that was naive of the players, but again I don't blame the clubs here, I'm sure they'd be willing to uphold any verbal agreements etc. that might have been made. This is down to the PRL and their tight-fisted policies, which take no account of what's right for the players (the ones who actually go out on the field and play the game).

I agree that less foreigners in English system would probably benefit English rugby at the international level, but it doesn't benefit the clubs (who PRL are representing), so how will loosing foreign players help? Top quality foreign/overseas players should always be welcome (to an extent), so putting players like these off, if they have international hopes, is stupid. There's talk of Hook leaving the Ospreys after this season, do you think he'd join an English team if he were to miss international matches? Probably not, and surely he's the kinda player every team would love to have of their books.

Stick up for the clubs by all means Mite, but please don't stick up for the fools in charge of PRL.