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WRU pour cold water on ELVs

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What's wrong with leaving the team with the ball to make the decisions, i.e. a quick tap is always available, and one Wales with Peel use often and efficiently.
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That's the thing, how many other teams do this? Not many right? Giving the attacking team a free kick instead of a long penalty encourages postive play, instead of kicking for posts aka negative play.

These rules are just forcing teams to play in a certain way, personally it wouldn't matter to me, as it's changing the game into a way Welsh rugby as a whole already play, but it still doesn't make it right! [/b]
But is that all that bad? I hate to see a team dominate the game with goal kicking, and I'm sure alot of people are with me on this one. It encourages team to focus on the exciting phases of rugby, with out taking out the fundementals (sp?). Fundementals being: Scrums, Goal Kicking, Conversions, Rucks, Line outs.

People keep on saying that it'll put more emphasis on the scrum etc, why would we want that when the scrum is such a mess, with collapse after collapse, then referees just giving penalties at random!
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Maybe the scrum is such a mess because it's not used enough in the games? Teams try the best to get good ball from the scrum now because they have that extra 5m of space.

Edit. Forgot to say thanks to BLR and Fushitsusha for clearing up the Yellow card scenario. They still aren't used enough, with refs often reluctant to send a player to the sin bin, especially if that team already has one off.
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Got disagree with you there.

http://www.super14.com/stats/2007/cards10.asp
After Round 10, 41 yellow cards had been issued (2007)
http://www.super14.com/stats/2008/cards10.asp
After Round 10, 51 yellow cards had been issued (2008)

As you can see the refs are cracking down, the overall might be a bit more because the players were getting used to the rules but as you can see there is definitely not a decline.

But it'll all depend on the referees interpretation of the rules.[/b]

I agree, this is the biggest obsticle facing the ELVs.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7364130.stm

Well.

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but now that the rules have settled in the gameplay is second to none.
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Actually, that's just opinion. I'd much rather watch the Heineken Cup over the Super 14 anyday. ;)

Teams NEED to score tries if they want to win.
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Why? :huh:
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Well, they don't need to but there's certainly seems to have been less shots at goal for penalties.

Anyways, I think a lot of people have overreacted at the effect the ELVs have had on the game.
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Considering penalties are more sparsely awarded, I can see why. Like someone else said, the game is fine as it is, so why fix what's not broken? [/b][/quote]
Because it's not fine... The ELVs may not be addressing some of the most crucial area of rugby but to suggest everything is "fine" is having your head in the sand. The ruck and the scrum constitute 2 very unclear areas of the game that can see teams penalised purely depending on the attitude and interpretation of the ref and both the NH and SH refs interpret these areas quite differently, meaning their impact on the game is significant. If rugby were "fine" we would barely feel the refs presence on the pitch, but much of the time he becomes the focul point.
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Well to be honest, I don't have a problem with all of the laws, although some which mean that free kicks are given instead of penalty's gives me the impression that Union is becoming too much like League.
If someone can read this http://www.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,18259,...2850952,00.html and give me an idea of which laws are being experiemented with (as the site only says "possible" changes), I'd have furthur insight into these ELV's.
 
I like how Ieuan Evans says that the pros will adopt the new laws, but it's the players at grassroots level that will struggle with the new laws.

Are you kidding me? There are umpteen penalties in every game i play simply because half of the players don't even know the rules and me being the gobby scrum half very loudly points it out to a blind ref to get us a penalty.

It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to some of the steroid-filled, inbred, valley retards we've got playing rugby around here - they know f*** all as it is!
 
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but now that the rules have settled in the gameplay is second to none.
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Actually, that's just opinion. I'd much rather watch the Heineken Cup over the Super 14 anyday. ;)

Teams NEED to score tries if they want to win.
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Why? :huh:
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Well, they don't need to but there's certainly seems to have been less shots at goal for penalties.

Anyways, I think a lot of people have overreacted at the effect the ELVs have had on the game.
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Considering penalties are more sparsely awarded, I can see why. Like someone else said, the game is fine as it is, so why fix what's not broken? [/b][/quote]
Because it's not fine... The ELVs may not be addressing some of the most crucial area of rugby but to suggest everything is "fine" is having your head in the sand. The ruck and the scrum constitute 2 very unclear areas of the game that can see teams penalised purely depending on the attitude and interpretation of the ref and both the NH and SH refs interpret these areas quite differently, meaning their impact on the game is significant. If rugby were "fine" we would barely feel the refs presence on the pitch, but much of the time he becomes the focul point.
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Well to be honest, I don't have a problem with all of the laws, although some which mean that free kicks are given instead of penalty's gives me the impression that Union is becoming too much like League.
If someone can read this http://www.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,18259,...2850952,00.html and give me an idea of which laws are being experiemented with (as the site only says "possible" changes), I'd have furthur insight into these ELV's.
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I don't see how it makes it anything like league...?

And another thing, I'm kind of glad that the the free kicks being awarded from general ruck infringements are not giving the non-offending team the advantage they get from full arm penalties.

The rules around the breakdown have become very messy and vague in recent years and quite often teams are having points scored against them for decisions that could go either way.

Unfortunately it depends on the referee's interpretation so in one case a team might get penalised for not releasing the ball, but another ref might penalise the other team for not releasing the tackler, or not rolling away etc.

In that sense the free kicks help the referee from influencing the outcome of the game.

Personally, I get very wound up by the quite often mind boggling decisions that the referees make at the breakdown.

Anyways, I think they need to bring back rucking.
 
Are you kidding me? There are umpteen penalties in every game i play simply because half of the players don't even know the rules and me being the gobby scrum half very loudly points it out to a blind ref to get us a penalty.

It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to some of the steroid-filled, inbred, valley retards we've got playing rugby around here - they know f*** all as it is!
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Don't talk about the Ospreys like that RC! How could you talk about your own team in such a manner?!
 
Sorry I saw the words "inbred", "Steroids", "don't even know the rules" and "gobby scrum half" and automatically thought "Ospreys"...
 
Hey, we may not know the rules, we may have a gobby scrum half, we may be on steroids and we may all be inbred, but we are certainly not communists!
 
Shaun Edwards has written a number of Guardian articles fiercely criticising the ELVs. [/b]

Shaun Edward's has written a number of Guardian articles which consist of nothing but A-Grade Bullshit about mythical Super 14 B competions and Basketball fiercely criticising the ELVs.

Originally posted by Prestwick
The only major figures in the North other than Wales to have come out against the ELVs to my knowledge has been Ian Mcgeechan who joins New Zealand Coach Graham Henry in the "No" camp.

Henry has said no such thing, all he has said he doesn't like the fact he has to swtich back to the old rule's for the June test's before changing back to the ELV's for the Tri Nations.

http://www.sarugby.com/news/News/article/sid=8791.html

Henry wants consistency to be retained for the Tri-Nations as the old rules will be used against Ireland and England during the home international series as well as on the Grand Slam tour.

Having observed the new laws over the course of the Super 14, Henry likes the quick throw-ins, no passing back into the 22m and the 5m back on defence from scrums but he added there are still problems at the tackle.[/b]

Originally posted by Sir. Speedy

Well to be honest, I don't have a problem with all of the laws, although some which mean that free kicks are given instead of penalty's gives me the impression that Union is becoming too much like League.
If someone can read this http://www.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,18259,...2850952,00.html and give me an idea of which laws are being experiemented with (as the site only says "possible" changes), I'd have furthur insight into these ELV's.

Rules 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12 on that list are the one's being used in the Super 14 I think

Oh, and too anyone (Looking at you Mite) who still think's it's some SANZAR plot to turn Rugby into the NBA, a post I saw on the Silverfern forum...

I understand that conspiracy theories run rampant, but does the "Australian plot" actually hold water?

My recollection of events is that IRB president Syd Millar recommended new amendments. Syd Millar was an Irish international and a British Lion. Sorry, not an Okker.

The IRB subsequently established the LPG (Laws Project Group). The IRB LPG chairman was Bill Nolan, the Scottish Council Member of the IRB. With me so far...? That's an Irishman and a Scot -- in agreement with one another -- and somehow the Irish and English, as your firsthand witness above attests, have their heels dug in that this is an Australian plot. O-kay, nobody said conspiracy theories had to make sense for them to gain momentum. Moving on...

The Vice-Chairman of the IRB LPG is Bill Beaumont. Bill's not an Okker, either. He's English, and another British Lion. Sorry whizzkids, but looking at this from the top down, it's hard to see the underpinnings of an Australian plot here.

The rest of the IRB LPG included Pierre Villepreux (France), Rod MacQueen (Australia), Ian McIntosh (South Africa), Richie Dixon (Scotland), and Paddy O’Brien (New Zealand).

On the balance of things, I'd say the initiative and development of these laws is international, and more from the side of NH unions than it is Sanzar, to say anything of appointing the blame solely on the ARU and the weakened Wallaby scrum.[/b]
 
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Shaun Edwards has written a number of Guardian articles fiercely criticising the ELVs. [/b]

Shaun Edward's has written a number of Guardian articles which consist of nothing but A-Grade Bullshit about mythical Super 14 B competions and Basketball fiercely criticising the ELVs.[/b][/quote]

You see, this is the problem. He's written an negative article about the ELVs, so therefore he must be either:
  • Nuts.
  • Insane.
  • Stupid.
  • Full of bullshit.
  • Obviously biased against the SH.
  • Out to get you.
These doubters aren't seen as people to be won over, they're seen as maniacs. Sticks in the mud who'll only cause more trouble unless they're shouted down and made to go home with their tails tucked between their legs. Maybe you should have said:

Shaun Edwards does have some serious reservations about the ELVs, but I'm sure if he sat down and read them and saw for himself how they're used in real life, he'll come around to see the positive side of the ELVs.[/b]

Don't be so defensive all the time, you're meant to be selling the idea, not biting people's heads off. While Steve would be breakdancing his way out of iRB HQ, you'd be doing your presentation:

<iRB board member> So, Mr Ripper, your views on the new rules for the tackle area ar-
<Ripper> What do you mean you don't like them?! Haven't you seen them?! You're against me! YOU'RE ALL AGAINST ME! YOU ALL HATE THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE! FULL OF ****! YOU'RE ALL FULL OF ****! *storms out*

...quite.

One fact which I think we have all missed out on is that the ELVs provide a rather sneaky platform for those from both the NH and SH to take snide and petty little shots at each other. In a way, there is a bit of morbid paranoia about the other side in all of us. However, don't let it get in the way of sensible discussion. Remember that Warren Gatland, a firm admirer of Shaun Edwards, also has some critisism of the ELVs. Could we at least be nice to him rather than jump all over him like raging banshees covered in napalm?

I understand that conspiracy theories run rampant, but does the "Australian plot" actually hold water?

My recollection of events is that IRB president Syd Millar recommended new amendments. Syd Millar was an Irish international and a British Lion. Sorry, not an Okker.

The IRB subsequently established the LPG (Laws Project Group). The IRB LPG chairman was Bill Nolan, the Scottish Council Member of the IRB. With me so far...? That's an Irishman and a Scot -- in agreement with one another -- and somehow the Irish and English, as your firsthand witness above attests, have their heels dug in that this is an Australian plot. O-kay, nobody said conspiracy theories had to make sense for them to gain momentum. Moving on...

The Vice-Chairman of the IRB LPG is Bill Beaumont. Bill's not an Okker, either. He's English, and another British Lion. Sorry whizzkids, but looking at this from the top down, it's hard to see the underpinnings of an Australian plot here.

The rest of the IRB LPG included Pierre Villepreux (France), Rod MacQueen (Australia), Ian McIntosh (South Africa), Richie Dixon (Scotland), and Paddy O'Brien (New Zealand).

On the balance of things, I'd say the initiative and development of these laws is international, and more from the side of NH unions than it is Sanzar, to say anything of appointing the blame solely on the ARU and the weakened Wallaby scrum.[/b]

It still doesn't change the fact that on the 17th of March, the Australian Rugby Union stated that it wanted the iRB "to introduce experimental rule changes across the board by 1 September." At that time, the iRB would not be drawn on the issue and instead said that it wanted to merely "encourage" the NH to "trial" with the ELVs at club level. It is important to remember that while the LPG have agreed on these revisions, neither they nor the iRB are not actively pushing for change. That is the remit of their membernations, not theirs. Do not confuse agreeing on a set of rules with wholehearted endorsement and full positive backing. Again, that is for the member Unions and not the iRB.

Thus, you can see why Australia, England and Wales are not sitting on their hands about this. They are actively lobbying for as hard as the WRU and RFU are lobbying against. Thus, it makes for a very interesting meeting on the 1st of May.

EDIT: Going through the RFU Grassroots survey (yes, all the grassroots rugby players/coaches are insane/full of sh*t too) and I've counted at least five instances where the proposed ELV is merely a call for the existing rule to be more tightly implemented. I've counted three instances where the Scrum has been removed as an option, in law 5.07 covering unplayable ball at the breakdown, Law 6.03 on the issue of an unplayable scrum and Law 8.01 on punishing offenses to do with kick offs and restart kicks. And Law 5.09 is reformed with a strict outlining of the place of penalties in the ELV structure in three bullet points.

I took the survey, but while I'm not going to divulge what I chose, you may be pretty surprised.

To take the survey, go to http://www.rfusurvey.co.uk.
 
Well actually, in one of the articles i've red, he yammered on about stat's from the rules being tested in the "Super 14 B competition", a competition which never existed.

He than continuted with the it is an Australian plot line and used the example of Queensland wanting to wind the clock back to when winning game's 60-48 every week back in the Super 10 days. Except, sadly for you and Edwards, Queensland was probably the most boring as f*** 10 man rugby team you'll ever see back then, even worse than England.

But hey, who am I to accuse of Shaun Edwards of being wrong.

<iRB board member> So, Mr Ripper, your views on the new rules for the tackle area ar-
<Ripper> What do you mean you don't like them?! Haven't you seen them?! You're against me! YOU'RE ALL AGAINST ME! YOU ALL HATE THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE! FULL OF ****! YOU'RE ALL FULL OF ****! *storms out*[/b]

<Shaun Edwards> THE EVLZ ARE GOING TO TURN RUGBY INTO BASKETBALL!!!!!!111!! HAVENT YOU SEEN THE RESULTS FROM THE 2005 SUPER 19 C COMPETITION WHEN THEY WERE TESTED!!!

<Prestwick> Shaun Edwards columns should be treated as gospel

<Ripper> But they are full of lies and over the top dooms day exagerations

<Prestwick> You've just got your head in the sand, don't you know that the average final score under these new rules in a Super 14 game is 89-76. Of course, the next step in this evil Australian plot is to make pushing in scrums red card offence. Also John O'Neil want's to kill your first born and turn him into a hat.
 
Well actually, in one of the articles i've red, he yammered on about stat's from the rules being tested in the "Super 14 B competition", a competition which never existed.

He than continuted with the it is an Australian plot line and used the example of Queensland wanting to wind the clock back to when winning game's 60-48 every week back in the Super 10 days. Except, sadly for you and Edwards, Queensland was probably the most boring as f*** 10 man rugby team you'll ever see back then, even worse than England.

But hey, who am I to accuse of Shaun Edwards of being wrong.

<iRB board member> So, Mr Ripper, your views on the new rules for the tackle area ar-
<Ripper> What do you mean you don't like them?! Haven't you seen them?! You're against me! YOU'RE ALL AGAINST ME! YOU ALL HATE THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE! FULL OF ****! YOU'RE ALL FULL OF ****! *storms out*[/b]

<Shaun Edwards> THE EVLZ ARE GOING TO TURN RUGBY INTO BASKETBALL!!!!!!111!! HAVENT YOU SEEN THE RESULTS FROM THE 2005 SUPER 19 C COMPETITION WHEN THEY WERE TESTED!!!

<Prestwick> Shaun Edwards columns should be treated as gospel

<Ripper> But they are full of lies and over the top dooms day exagerations

<Prestwick> You've just got your head in the sand, don't you know that the average final score under these new rules in a Super 14 game is 89-76. Of course, the next step in this evil Australian plot is to make pushing in scrums red card offence. Also John O'Neil want's to kill your first born and turn him into a hat.
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Fine you can debate this forever. Fact is, the game isn't yours to change.
 
Fine you can debate this forever. Fact is, the game isn't yours to change.
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Indeed, it's the IRB's, and the ELV's are an IRB initiative. ;) (Where can I pick up my winners trophy?)
 
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Fine you can debate this forever. Fact is, the game isn't yours to change.
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Indeed, it's the IRB's, and the ELV's are an IRB initiative. ;) (Where can I pick up my winners trophy?)
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Don't mean that just because it suits you lot it should by rights be changed. There's no way the ELVs will be implemented, since they are already unpopular in Europe. And we have 6 major unions, you have 3.
 
But hey, who am I to accuse of Shaun Edwards of being wrong.
--

<Prestwick> Shaun Edwards columns should be treated as gospel

<Ripper> But they are full of lies and over the top dooms day exagerations

<Prestwick> You've just got your head in the sand, don't you know that the average final score under these new rules in a Super 14 game is 89-76. Of course, the next step in this evil Australian plot is to make pushing in scrums red card offence. Also John O'Neil want's to kill your first born and turn him into a hat. [/b]

No, BLR, I didn't say that.

You see, this is the problem. My message was "Ripper, if you think he is wrong, why not try and convince him and bring him round rather than jumping on him."

This somehow turned into "Shaun Edwards is right so STFO and STFD Ripper, we're all out to get you, this is a conspiracy, Martin Johnson was the shooter on the grassy knoll, Ieuan Evans was the guy who REALLY shot Edward Kennedy in the kitchen and it was really Serge Blanco who faked the moon landings...they're all out to get you, Ripper..."

I didn't say he was right.

I didn't say his word was gospel.

I did say that he is highly respected by Warren Gatland however.

But the bottom line is Ripper, you're meant to be trying to bring people on board to this idea, not dismissing them as wackos and giving them a load of verbal.

People are afraid of things and persons who they do not understand. This, obviously, goes both ways North and South. Better to spend the time and have the patience to explain properly your idea rather than exercise the attack dog mouth.

At the end of the day, to clarify, this is for the member Unions to decide. The iRB commissioned the LPG but at the same time they're not pushing this. All they are suggesting is that these are trialled and not permanently implemented.

As well as this, I like it that the RFU are clearing the air and made a clear and impartial survey for anyone to participate in.

The survey has cleared up allot of concerns I had about the ELVs, much more than Ripper's conspiracy theories and Steve-o's karaoke version of David Bowies "CH-CH-CHANGES" ever did. I'm not as afraid of a yes vote as I once were.
 
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Fine you can debate this forever. Fact is, the game isn't yours to change.
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Indeed, it's the IRB's, and the ELV's are an IRB initiative. ;) (Where can I pick up my winners trophy?) [/b][/quote]

And the iRB are a bunch of old <strike>farts</strike> and idiots.

Go figure.
 
What's the point of trying to convert people like Shaun Edwards, he's had 11 weeks to get the hint that this isn't an Australian plot. He's had 11 weeks of Super 14 Rugby to notice the rules haven't turned the competition that hasn't turned into some Arena League style game and he's had 11 weeks of action to notice that the scrum is more important than ever, possibly even more important as it is now a vital attacking set piece weapon. But yet all he still yammers on about basketball scores and the fact the rules are depowering the scrum.

If he can't take the hint himself, I highly doubt he's going to listien to people who actually watch what they write about.

Originally posted by Prestwick
I didn't say he was right.

I didn't say his word was gospel.

I did say that he is highly respected by Warren Gatland however.

Wow, good for him, his columns are all 100% fiction still, whether he's respected by Warren Gatland or the Popes Lover. Relevance your honor?

The survey has cleared up allot of concerns I had about the ELVs, much more than Ripper's conspiracy theories and Steve-o's karaoke version of David Bowies "CH-CH-CHANGES" ever did. I'm not as afraid of a yes vote as I once were. [/b]

Conspiracy theories? The only one with the tin-foil hat is people in this thread (at least you've stopped going about this is all just a plot because of the RWC) who still think it's all John O'Niel's secret agenda to do away with the scrum, despite numerous proof otherwise and the fact the oppisite is true. There's no conspiracy theory about my calling bullshit on Shaun Edward's articles - they are full of made up stats. Fact. They are full of untrue generalisations and exaggerations. Fact. He has no idea what he is talking about. Fact.
 
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