Winning Top 14 bigger than H Cup - even O'Gara says so

[Big Ewis]

everyone is entitled to their opinion

sadly..

 

[nickdnz]

None of it matters really as Super Rugby is the best competition in the world, so French rugby is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Thingimubob]

I dunno FrenchFan...I'd say Top 14 is harder as a whole because it's constant, super intense, and a long ass season filled with big names everywhere, super athletic wingers and centers everywhere, huge flankers, great half-backs everywhere etc...and coaches are usually good.
But proportionally, rather than on a sheer full year's season, the H Cup is more difficult. But I agree that on the long run, considering the weight of a Top 14 season nowadays, one could call that "harder" to live through.

And it's true that the Saracens being the odd exception this year (to be fair, because Ulster were 14, exclusively), the H Cup is only that difficult because it has 3 very good Irish teams, period. Nothing beyond that can threaten Top 14 sides playing a full roster and focused 100% on the stakes.

Anyways, both championships are a joy to watch and make European Rugby that much greater. But the debate definitely poses itself nowadays: Top 14 or H Cup ?

Apart from Cardiff Blues at the Arms Park sorry couldn't resist, we've had a pretty crap season so it's nice to wave a flag about something.

Jesus FrenchFan, you don't half like picking a fight over which league has the biggest metaphorical dick?! A

On the topic of the possible coming slump of the Irish teams. Gotta agree with the Irish lads in that I don't see that much changing. Admittedly Leinster have had a poor season or two in Europe by their usually impeccable standards, but like the others have said, they have a silly amount of strength in depth, so they'll come up fine soon enough!
Either way, there are teams in the Pro12 who are developing into class sides, Glasgow in particular and while the Welsh teams have had a damn poor season this year, they've all had a silver lining in some of the young players that have come through/are coming through this year. With more top class internationals leaving, we could see even more youngsters pushing their way through next year too.
Hell even Zebre have come on leaps and bounds since last season!

 

[gaston le gaff]

This is why France's poor showing in the competition is quite embarrassing as they have 2 or 3 internationals backed up in each position, and they should be able to compete on both fronts considering the English can do it without the budget.

Saffycen, cant quite get my head your comment, this year could be 2 wins in a row for Toulon, + 4 by Toulouse never done by anyone else in Europe and of course not forgetting Brive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are the 16 times finalists, 4 all French finals, nobody has ever succeeded better or even come close, to such an excellent H Cup record so the "embarassing showing" you state is about what exactly, as has been said by many French posters the TOP 14 COME FIRST for every club, and certainly some clubs have sent teams they would never field for a TOP 14 game, but these teams could never compete on both fronts successfully, and others have done the same, when qualifying was already out of the window but there record in the competition is second to none.
Of course the Irish have done well 5 wins in the last 10 ( won't mention Ulster when the English were not present) but the H Cup only started in 95 so looking at its history the best performances have come from French sides by a masive margin,
please please explain embarassing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TheSaffycen]

Teams like Toulon and Toulouse have done well yes, but im talking teams like Racing, Clermont, Castres, Montpellier haven't done anything in the competition. Yes Clermont got to the final last year but considering the squad these teams have compared to the rest I think it is a poor showing. Must be honest Brive is before I started getting into rugby so I don't know about them. I just go back over the last 10 years and there are more winners from ireland than from France, if you look at all time there are 6 French winners, 6 Irish and 6 English. I think that is pretty poor when you have double the budget lots of intl's per team and apparently the greatest league in the world.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It's hard to count anything prior to around 2000 as well, it was a second rate competition then, sides like Munster and Leocester and even Llanelli made the tournament what it was. Considering France had more than double the amount of teams the Irish had and the biggest budgets it's fair to say they under-avheived, until the past three years with a possible two wins and Clermont being the second best team the last two seasons.

 

[FrenchFan]

sure why dont you leave out the years we won it the count will be even easier - that makes a lot of sense!!!

please keep your own illusions to yourself - Fact remains Toulouse still have the highest number of wins (4) with 6 finals. And I dont see any side anywhere coming close to taking their record. Last 2 finalists were French. Current holder is French. Only 1 English team in last 4 in 2 years. In recent years French teams & Irish provinces are doing better than English. Get your facts right

 

[Tony Manx]

.........this still going on?!!

 

[FrenchFan]

Teams like Toulon and Toulouse have done well yes, but im talking teams like Racing, Clermont, Castres, Montpellier haven't done anything in the competition. Yes Clermont got to the final last year but considering the squad these teams have compared to the rest I think it is a poor showing. Must be honest Brive is before I started getting into rugby so I don't know about them. I just go back over the last 10 years and there are more winners from ireland than from France, if you look at all time there are 6 French winners, 6 Irish and 6 English. I think that is pretty poor when you have double the budget lots of intl's per team and apparently the greatest league in the world.

number of wins per country is not very relevant, it is a clubs competition

in last 2 years consecutively only 1 English club made the last 4 in H Cup. thats not an impressive return for your premiership

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

number of wins per country is not very relevant, it is a clubs competition

in last 2 years consecutively only 1 English club made the last 4 in H Cup. thats not an impressive return for your premiership

You make contradicting yourself a skill my friend....

 

[Big Ewis]

.........this still going on?!!

I'd agree with this, but some interesting things are being said though.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Last 2 finalists were French. Current holder is French. Only 1 English team in last 4 in 2 years. In recent years French teams & Irish provinces are doing better than English. Get your facts right

When did I say that the English where better ? The fact is 6 French 6 English 6 Irish which wouldnt be too bad if it was all a level playing field, but it ain't, your playing field is stacked on top of a lot of money. You have more internationals and bigger squads yet you have the same amount of winners. So don't give me all this **** that the English teams have been crap, because I know they have and unlike you im under no illusion they have been. Give Saracens or Tigers the budget you have and we would have more winners than the french.

 

[Jaguares]

I prefer Heineken Cup over Top 14.

The top 14 is bigger in France alright. Outside of France (ie the rest of the world) the heineken cup is much bigger. So its basically French vs World

I think the same

 

[nickdnz]

Toulose has never won a Super Rugby ***le. FACT!

 

[Tony Manx]

TouloUse has never won a Super Rugby ***le. FACT!

Ah come on .....Canterbury never won a Top 14 or H Cup ***le for that matter!!!

It really is getting silly now........................!!

 

[lynam1104]

It was silly from the moment it began.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I think it comes down to the Top14 meaning more (in the hearts of the French public) but the HC undoubtedly being a bigger achievement? If that's the case I can identify as I think a SR ***le is definately more of an achievement than a CC ***le but if you give me the option; Stormers win SR or WP (I am still waiting for Boland to climb up to premier division) win CC... my heart wants the Currie Cup trophy more. The Top 14 is also longer and tougher (mentally) so there's that as well so I perfectly appreciate the sentiment of this thread.

 

[lynam1104]

I think it comes down to the Top14 meaning more (in the hearts of the French public) but the HC undoubtedly being a bigger achievement? If that's the case I can identify as I think a SR ***le is definately more of an achievement than a CC ***le but if you give me the option; Stormers win SR or WP (I am still waiting for Boland to climb up to premier division) win CC... my heart wants the Currie Cup trophy more. The Top 14 is also longer and tougher (mentally) so there's that as well so I perfectly appreciate the sentiment of this thread.

What you're saying I think is fully understood and accepted by european rugby fans and has been for awhile, however what FrenchFan is saying is that everyone should value the Top14 more than the HC.

 

[Big Ewis]

Ah come on .....Canterbury never won a Top 14 or H Cup ***le for that matter!!!

It really is getting silly now........................!!

silly ? noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......

 

[gaston le gaff]

Teams like Toulon and Toulouse have done well yes, but im talking teams like Racing, Clermont, Castres, Montpellier haven't done anything in the competition. Yes Clermont got to the final last year but considering the squad these teams have compared to the rest I think it is a poor showing. Must be honest Brive is before I started getting into rugby so I don't know about them. I just go back over the last 10 years and there are more winners from ireland than from France, if you look at all time there are 6 French winners, 6 Irish and 6 English. I think that is pretty poor when you have double the budget lots of intl's per team and apparently the greatest league in the world.

bit silly putting Montpellier in that context as they have only be in the elite 9 seasons and the H Cup for the last 3 seasons, would you mention the H Cup glory of Connacht or Exeter i doubt it !!!!!!!!!!