Who Will Lose Out To Sonny Bill Williams?

[Teh Mite]

A question for you please.

If SBW is "utter shite at union", why were Toulon so desperate to re-sign him, to the tune of millions if dollars?

Word is, they were offering between five and eight times what he accepted from the NZRU (i.e. between $2.5m and $4m, and they were really. really ****** that he turned them down.

God only knows why. But if you'd seen him play, you'd call them mugs for offering that sort of money to a player who's barely at the standard of Jamie Noon.

 

[cyRil]

Wow, people are rude sometimes on the internet. Get over it. Say something stupid and that's how people react.

You're not doing much to make me praise your naaaaammeeee!

 

[Sam Owen]

Wow, people are rude sometimes on the internet. Get over it. Say something stupid and that's how people react.

Lucky I dont say something stupid to you aye Feicarsinn lol...your views please you got a lot to say in terms of critisicm on the matter but you've got nothing sensible to say on the matter lol..

 

[ranger]

I think the squad makeup will look something like this:

Hookers: Kevin Mealamu, Andrew Hore, John Afoa/Corey Flynn
Props: Tony Woodcock, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, Neemia Tialata
Locks: Brad Thorn, Tom Donnelly, Anthony Boric, Sam Whitelock/ Ali Williams
Loose Forwards: Richie McCaw, Jerome Kaino, Keiran Reid, Daniel Braid, Victor Vito/Adam Thompson
Halfback: Piri Weepu, Jimmy Cowan, Alby Matthewson
1st 5: Dan Carter, Aaron Cruden/Colin Slade/Mike Delaney
Midfield: Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, SBW, McAllister
Outside Backs: Mills Muliana, Corey Jane, Israel Dagg, Joe Rokcoco/Sitiveni Sivivatu
Utility Spot: Richard Kahui/Ice Toeava/Rene Ranger

So the players the bracketed players that were very close but at this time dont make the cut would be:
Corey Flynn- because of his injury concerns and the coaches wanting Afoa in the mix as a prop/hooker
Ali Williams- because hes injured and hasnt come back yet
Adam Thompson- because the coaches dont like that he can only play 6 and can go missing at times
Colin Slade- because he hasnt shown enough at 10 thus far
Mike Delaney- because he has been injured for too long
Sivivatu- because he has to come back from injury and outshine Roks to get his spot back
Isa Toeva- because he has yet to show anything back from injury
Rene Ranger- because he still has rough edges to his game

I think any other players are a bit too far off the radar at this point

 

[Feicarsinn]

Lucky I dont say something stupid to you aye Feicarsinn lol...your views please you got a lot to say in terms of critisicm on the matter but you've got nothing sensible to say on the matter lol..

Okay, how about this?

Sonny Bill Williams is currently the most overrated player in world rugby. He has done buggar all in rugby union and yet the NZRU have shelled out a fortune by their standards to bring him back and get him to play for the All Blacks for the world cup, despite have at least four better centres available to them.

It's pretty obvious why he wants to go back: he wants to play in the world cup. It has nothing to do with passion for the jersey. If he were so passionate about playing for the All Blacks he wouldn't have headed up north when he crossed over.

What's going to happen now is the All Black management is going to feel oblidged to play him in the EOYT at the very least and probably in the next tri nations. When it turns out he isn't up to it they'll be a bit stuck having shelled out all of this cahs for him. They'll probably bring him to the world cup, sacrificing someone like Rene Ranger or another promising player and play him in a few group games but that'll be all.

At leastthat is what I see happening. He has done nothing so far to prove me wrong so far anyway.

 

[ranger]

Yeah it does seem a bit strange but the NZRU has been running the show that way for a while now. At the end of the day it's the players choice and there are alot of players that stay loyal to their home unions.

Brett is a good example. Zac Guilford (Crusaders / Hawkes Bay), Tanerau Latimer (Cheifs / Bay Of Plenty), Rene Ranger (Blues / Northland), Clint Newland (Highlanders / Hawkes Bay) are others.

Then there are the dis-loyals like Liam Messam, originally from the Bay Of Plenty, plays for the Cheifs in Super Rugby and in the ITM Cup he plays for Waikato instead of going back to the Bay etc.

Those are different situations you are mentioning there...
-Brett was signed by Auckland on a short term deal that ended at the end of the Super 14, hes a Cantab and was never going to play in the ITM cup for anyone else.
-Guildford has been loned back to Hawkesbay from Canterbury as it was stipulated it as part of his contract
-Tanerau Latimer is playing for BOP which is in the Cheifs cachement. there is no reason for him to move to Waikato because he can get picked for the Cheifs from where he is now.
-Rene Ranger is the same, Northland is in the Blues cachement, there is no reason for him to go to Auckland
-Clint Newland gets picked up in the draft for the Highlanders after getting looked over by the 'Canes, the Highlanders dont own his contract so he has no contact with Highlander ITM teams.
-Calling Liam Messam "Disloyal" is very harsh, he moved to Waikato as a teenager, hes played the majority of his rugby for Waikato and played for them before he even made the Cheifs..

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

The only time I remeber seeing him play was in the Amlin Cup final against Cardiff, (Although I think he played in the Quater-Final Vs Scarlets, but I don't remember it) and he was just chucking random offloads and trying to be too flashy. Nonu and Smith are good because they know their limits. They know how they play, and therefor how they should play. SBW doesn't. I wouldn't put him into the ABs team if it where my choice, personally, although he is a big-name player, and people will want to see him play.

 

[nickdnz]

Now for another SBW rant by me, and in my opinion he should not be selected for the AB's. Here are the reasons.

Commitment: Or lack there of. He has shown he will run out on his club for money. That's a fact. People say "But remember, he's taking a huge pay cut in playing New Zealand rugby!". I'm well awear of that, he mentions it in almost every interview. No one seems to mention how much an All Black jersey will add to his future pay check when he goes back to Europe in 2012, or back to the NRL (which the penalty of $1m for selecting him would have expired by then as his Bulldogs contract would have run its course). In fact he himself has said that he liked to keep his option open and do small stunts with teams, which explains the back out clause which allows him to pull out of the remainder of his contract if not selected for the EOYT (which will almost guarentee he gets in. He's also doing his stupid boxing crap. He claims "It's been a dream of mine to play for the All Blacks", bullocks. He's said it's been a dream of his to play for the All Blacks AND play in the NRL AND professional boxing. He uses the word "dream" with not sincerity at all. As feicarsinn mentioned, had it really been an ambition of his to be an All Black, he wouldn't have played in Europe for two years before coming to New Zealand and playing a year out from the RWC (if he ever actually takes the field).

Other Candidates: I know Cymro rates his performances for Toloun in the Top 14 (I've watched Toloun through out last season, and I still think he's over rated) however I think he is miles away from proving he is better than the other option. You have Ma'a Nonu who is arguably the best line breaker in the world, and from what I've seen of SBW, Nonu break the line so much better. He's also shown he is loyal to NZ considering he first played for the AB's in 2003, and has only become a automatic selection since 2008. You then have Luke McAlister, who has started to get his form back. He's a very silky runner, has very good strength since returning, can kick goals 63m out, can cover outside centre and fly half and has shown he is loyal by returning from Europe. You then have Isia Toeava who is still young and has a lot of time to become a great player, Benson Stanley who's gaining form and in the centres you have Smith, Kahui and the very young and exciting potential of Robert Fruen. The question of whos spot does SBW take is a great question, because all the candidates deserve a spot more than him.

Biggest Reason: Despite looking like a one horse pony who just hits the line hard and looks for the offload, it is irrelavant in my opinion. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't care if he is the most talented rugby player in the world, if he's in it just for the RWC, I'm not interested in him in the team. He's earning as much as McCaw and Carter, both of whom have represented NZ with honour and distinction for many years (2001 and 2003), and yet he has the nerve to mention how he is taking a pay cut, even though he has not proven that he is worth the money by playing in NZ. Assuming he is the greatest talent of all time, NZ will train him up, we win the RWC, and then he goes overseas and uses all the time, money, effort and resources that NZ has used to make him a great player, and he plays in the Top 14 for millions of dollars. I'd rather have a player who isn't quite as talented, but loves New Zealand and rugby, and is willing to forgo the huge pay checks of overseas to earn a spot in NZ. That is real dedication and it's not SBW. As I said in the last thread, it is the real dreams of thousands of New Zealanders to play in the AB's, and only a very small percentage is lucky and dedicated enough to wear the Black jersey. It's not something any player should take for granted, and it offers no consolation to people like myself, who will likely never even get payed for doing what I love, that someone who doesn't appreciate it as much as myself gets that position.

That being said, if he sticks around for the long run I'll eat my words, but I think I'm safe in assuming that he'll be well and truly gone in two years times, RWC victory or not.

 

[Sam Owen]

Okay, how about this?

Sonny Bill Williams is currently the most overrated player in world rugby. He has done buggar all in rugby union and yet the NZRU have shelled out a fortune by their standards to bring him back and get him to play for the All Blacks for the world cup, despite have at least four better centres available to them.

It's pretty obvious why he wants to go back: he wants to play in the world cup. It has nothing to do with passion for the jersey. If he were so passionate about playing for the All Blacks he wouldn't have headed up north when he crossed over.

What's going to happen now is the All Black management is going to feel oblidged to play him in the EOYT at the very least and probably in the next tri nations. When it turns out he isn't up to it they'll be a bit stuck having shelled out all of this cahs for him. They'll probably bring him to the world cup, sacrificing someone like Rene Ranger or another promising player and play him in a few group games but that'll be all.

At leastthat is what I see happening. He has done nothing so far to prove me wrong so far anyway.

Fair enough that doesnt sound like a whole lot of 'arse' to me. Im only saying its passion because that is what he said on an article I read awhile back and who knows Sonny better than himself, the thing is to me you can head up north and play for the All Blacks its possible doing that doesnt mean you have no passion for the AB jersey. Maybe that was the next best thing for him at the time and the money was too hard for him to turn down. I doubt they would sacrifice Ranger if anything its looking more and more like McAllistair. Henry and co. are the coach of the All Blacks and Im sure are smarter than most of us here at all things Rugby I think theyve seen just as much or if not more of SBW when he was in France and these rugby smart men have lured SBW.

 

[nickdnz]

Fair enough that doesnt sound like a whole lot of 'arse' to me. Im only saying its passion because that is what he said on an article I read awhile back and who knows Sonny better than himself, the thing is to me you can head up north and play for the All Blacks its possible doing that doesnt mean you have no passion for the AB jersey. Maybe that was the next best thing for him at the time and the money was too hard for him to turn down. I doubt they would sacrifice Ranger if anything its looking more and more like McAllistair. Henry and co. are the coach of the All Blacks and Im sure are smarter than most of us here at all things Rugby I think theyve seen just as much or if not more of SBW when he was in France and these rugby smart men have lured SBW.

That is a very innocent but totally naive way to look at it. If I said that I was Daniel Carter, would you believe me on the basis that I would know who I am better than anyone else? of course not. He claims it is a dream, but he uses the word in every third sentence about several different sports. It was a "dream" that he played in the NRL, it was a "dream" that he was in a pro boxing fight, and now it's a "dream" to be an All Black...at least until the next dream comes along. I can tell you he isn't as passionate about being an All Black, as any of the other contenders, who could have earned big bucks in Europe, but have stayed to fight for an AB jersey, especially players who are only on the frindge of AB contention who work hard every day, for the oppertunity to be an All Black. You see what I'm saying? He has done nothing to indicate he is passionate about playing rugby in NZ, including mentioning future oppertunities and how he has taken a pay dive before he's even played a game in NZ.

 

[Sam Owen]

Yeah I see what your saying but you saying your Daniel Carter and me believing you is more naive than reading an interview on SBW telling us how he feels. Your comparison, to me is just not the same. No one knows themselves better than themselves I stand by that because its obviously true you cant compare that with a "If I said that I was a Daniel Carter..." . If Daniel Carter came out and told me how he felt I couldnt say "NO that is not how you feel, I KNOW how you feel", lol you know what I mean?.

He does use the word dream a lot but I too have a lot of dreams, a lot of people do, a lot of people dont get to carry it out and those who get to good on them. I have no jealousy or any negativity towards that or anyone with more dreams than one, its all good wheres the bad in that? Whats really so bad about it? Most things start with a dream anyway.

I do however feel for those hardworking Rugby players and its not certain that he would take somones place in the ABs (as you've made 'oppertunity' in bold) but if he does than good on him. Im sure Sonny trains hard as well he's come of a boxing fight and let me tell you boxing trainning's hard, very hard. To me nick I think you just dont like the guy maybe because he's a League player going into the All Blacks but I dont know for sure I can only speculate like you do with how Sonny feels.

You got to give everyone a chance nick, like they say where Im from 'its not always good to tell someone you cant, you wont' especially before they step up on the stage.

 

[cyRil]

I'm with you Sam. Down with the critics and cynics!! Shame on them!

 

[Shaggy]

Okay, how about this?

Sonny Bill Williams is currently the most overrated player in world rugby. He has done buggar all in rugby union and yet the NZRU have shelled out a fortune by their standards to bring him back and get him to play for the All Blacks for the world cup, despite have at least four better centres available to them.

It's pretty obvious why he wants to go back: he wants to play in the world cup. It has nothing to do with passion for the jersey. If he were so passionate about playing for the All Blacks he wouldn't have headed up north when he crossed over.

What's going to happen now is the All Black management is going to feel oblidged to play him in the EOYT at the very least and probably in the next tri nations. When it turns out he isn't up to it they'll be a bit stuck having shelled out all of this cahs for him. They'll probably bring him to the world cup, sacrificing someone like Rene Ranger or another promising player and play him in a few group games but that'll be all.


At leastthat is what I see happening. He has done nothing so far to prove me wrong so far anyway.

All good points except for the fact that SBW is also eligible to play for Manu Samoa (and Australia for that matter), and if playing in the World Cup was all that mattered, he would have had a better chance of being selected for Samoa, and could have still picked up his large pay check in France, as there's no requirement to play in Samoa for national selection.

I haven't seen enough of SBW to rate him, but I do respect Tana Umaga, who definitely rates him.

Are there other players in the players that are currently better than SBW? ... of course ... they're interested in him as a POTENTIAL player in the WC All Black squad, and he'll have to make the most of his chances/prove himself, like everyone else.

If I was going to try to tap that potential, I would have him playing for the crusaders as well, so he can learn from Carter (much like Carter learnt from Merhtens and Mauger in his early years)

Will SBW bail out/go overseas in 2012? ... well he won't be the only one, the first, or the last, if he does

 

[Sam Owen]

I'm with you Sam. Down with the critics and cynics!! Shame on them!

Thanks mate apart from us I think not many people in the TRF like SBW lol....oh well.

All good points except for the fact that SBW is also eligible to play for Manu Samoa (and Australia for that matter), and if playing in the World Cup was all that mattered, he would have had a better chance of being selected for Samoa, and could have still picked up his large pay check in France, as there's no requirement to play in Samoa for national selection.

I haven't seen enough of SBW to rate him, but I do respect Tana Umaga, who definitely rates him.

Are there other players in the players that are currently better than SBW? ... of course ... they're interested in him as a POTENTIAL player in the WC All Black squad, and he'll have to make the most of his chances/prove himself, like everyone else.

If I was going to try to tap that potential, I would have him playing for the crusaders as well, so he can learn from Carter (much like Carter learnt from Merhtens and Mauger in his early years)

Will SBW bail out/go overseas in 2012? ... well he won't be the only one, the first, or the last, if he does

Yeah Tana also rated Ma'a Nonu before he became great, most professional rugby players do rate SBW and even top coaches do as well. Most of his critics arent professional rugby players or coaches lol but with all respect they have the right to their opinions. I agree with you Shaggy and you've shared some good sensible perspectives, shed some good light on the matter.

 

[SelimNiai]

I havn't seen Billy Joel or whatever redneck name he has play very often but from what I have read about him and making my own intertreptaions from interviews then I would say he is a bit of a mercenary. As Nick says he has too many dreams to be really taken seriously.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sonny Bill Williams is currently the most overrated player in world rugby. He has done buggar all in rugby union and yet the NZRU have shelled out a fortune by their standards to bring him back and get him to play for the All Blacks for the world cup, despite have at least four better centres available to them.

I <3 Feic

I somehow missed this thread this morning, and missed it when i got back from work, but this is absolutely my opinion as well.
He's more overrated than Beast and Wilkinson put together. He was a cracking league player, and was so so in the T14. God only knows why people think he's the second coming of Ed Fairhurst, McAllister is a much bette choice for NZ.

Having said all that, i won't be surprised if he makes the ABs, purely based on "reputation" (which isn't really a reputation, more speculation, as he's not really done a lot).
I'd love him to go back to the NRL, just because his talent is wasted in Union. He was excellent for the Bulldogs and showed a lot of natural, league, talent, which just hasn't transferred over to union.


Also, whoever said he was a journeyman/mercenary (feic or Iain) is definately on the money. You only have to look at how he treated the Bulldogs (he just packed his bags and went, mid contract, without even telling them, as he had Toul to pay off his bosses when they found out) to see this.

 

[Sam Owen]

As Nick says he has too many dreams to be really taken seriously.

Didnt they say the same thing about Martin Luther King?

 

[Duckdee]

Didnt they say the same thing about Martin Luther King?

...did you just compare a rugby player to a leading figure of civil rights?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Didnt they say the same thing about Martin Luther King?

There are so very many things wrong with post.

 

[SelimNiai]

...did you just compare a rugby player to a leading figure of civil rights?

That sums up (most) Kiwis thoughts about him.