Who Will Lose Out To Sonny Bill Williams?

[ranger]

I seem to recall him making a mess of some pretty famous Australasian back lines at the start of the millennium which included the likes of Umaga, Carter, Mortlock and Latham. Mmmmm... Crap, wasn't he.

Come off it mate, England beat the Australisian teams in its heyday on the back of a perfectly executed 10 man rugby game. Saying Tindall "made a mess" of Australasian backlines is taking liberties to the point of falsity.
Since the Jonah Lomu game at the 1995 WC, England have beaten NZ twice. In one of those games they failed to score a try, in the other Tindall was matched up against Keith Lowen (who?.. exactly) and he still failed to cross the try line. The All Blacks again scored more tries than England in that game, but Johnny Wilkinsons boot proved the difference.
Did England have better tight forwards? yes, better leadership in Martin Johnson? yes, a better kicker in Johnny Wilkinson? yes, were they more disiplined and clinical? yes. Did England have it over NZ in the backs? no.
Tindall was a great roleplayer in that team and did his job well, but hes not going to "make a mess" of many top quality backlines.

No, I didn't say that. Players develop at different rates. No need to get so offended. That would be like me saying the ITM cup is awful because Jonathan Spatt did well down there but has done buggar all up here. You argued that SBW would start for France, England and Wales which tells me you don't follow Northern Hemisphere rugby in great detail.

Jeez don't bring up Johnathon Spratt, i hate that guy. Talk about a guy being overrated. Who told you he did well in the ITM cup? because he was actually very average.
When that knob Kennedy got the Taranaki job, he instantly went around trying to recruit players in europe before even taking a cursory look at the existing squad and player base. He guaranteed all this gametime to Spratt even though Taranaki already had a very sharp player in that position in Hurricanes squad member Nathan Hohaia. Im not saying Spratt was at all a bad player, his 2nd 5, Jayden Hayward of the Highlanders, would create holes for him and to his credit Spratt ran onto the ball hard and with good lines. But Hohaia always offered a little bit more when he got his 20 or so minutes off the bench.
The media loved the fact that Spratt was an overseas player and would often go on about how well the Welshman had played, even in cases where he hadn't actually done much or even when he had man shocking decisions all game long. It was so frustrating seeing him in the 13 jersey over Hohaia the whole season and Kennedy promptly got the boot for the next season for his poor management and selections.
People kept blindly reading hack sports articles and saying "oh wow, we're probably going to see Spratt coming back and playing for Wales soon!" where as anyone who actually watched him play closely could tell that he needed a lot of work and that as soon as he got back to a team with an actual coach who hadn't promised him a cast iron starting birth he would falter back to mediocrity.

 

[squirrel]

hell nz dont need him, let him play for samoa instead at the world cup

 

[TRF_Olyy]

SBW must've been close to getting France residency, would've been interesting to see him playing for them

 

[squirrel]

bugger off you ignorant fool that engalnd team that won the world cup played 15 man rugby, the team that beat an weakend abs team in 02 also played positive rugby

 

[Amobokoboko]

Yeah would be cool to see him represent Samoa

 

[Sam Owen]

So he's been successful at Boxing (if you can call it that) and otherwise achieved the exact same amount as Luke Rooney.

**** the bed...

LOL...just stating the facts, it is what it is. Besides not many people play pro League, Boxing and Union. Im not sure but I think he makes more than Rooney.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Come off it mate, England beat the Australisian teams in its heyday on the back of a perfectly executed 10 man rugby game. Saying Tindall "made a mess" of Australasian backlines is taking liberties to the point of falsity.
Since the Jonah Lomu game at the 1995 WC, England have beaten NZ twice. In one of those games they failed to score a try, in the other Tindall was matched up against Keith Lowen (who?.. exactly) and he still failed to cross the try line. The All Blacks again scored more tries than England in that game, but Johnny Wilkinsons boot proved the difference.
Did England have better tight forwards? yes, better leadership in Martin Johnson? yes, a better kicker in Johnny Wilkinson? yes, were they more disiplined and clinical? yes. Did England have it over NZ in the backs? no.
Tindall was a great roleplayer in that team and did his job well, but hes not going to "make a mess" of many top quality backlines.



Jeez don't bring up Johnathon Spratt, i hate that guy. Talk about a guy being overrated. Who told you he did well in the ITM cup? because he was actually very average.
When that knob Kennedy got the Taranaki job, he instantly went around trying to recruit players in europe before even taking a cursory look at the existing squad and player base. He guaranteed all this gametime to Spratt even though Taranaki already had a very sharp player in that position in Hurricanes squad member Nathan Hohaia. Im not saying Spratt was at all a bad player, his 2nd 5, Jayden Hayward of the Highlanders, would create holes for him and to his credit Spratt ran onto the ball hard and with good lines. But Hohaia always offered a little bit more when he got his 20 or so minutes off the bench.
The media loved the fact that Spratt was an overseas player and would often go on about how well the Welshman had played, even in cases where he hadn't actually done much or even when he had man shocking decisions all game long. It was so frustrating seeing him in the 13 jersey over Hohaia the whole season and Kennedy promptly got the boot for the next season for his poor management and selections.
People kept blindly reading hack sports articles and saying "oh wow, we're probably going to see Spratt coming back and playing for Wales soon!" where as anyone who actually watched him play closely could tell that he needed a lot of work and that as soon as he got back to a team with an actual coach who hadn't promised him a cast iron starting birth he would falter back to mediocrity.

Come off it ... you poo poo most things people say.

 

[ranger]

Come off it ... you poo poo most things people say.

Are you saying that the during Englands golden years they won due to their creative midfield? Or that Johnathon Spratt did well in the ANZC?

Edit, just saw my rep slide down a wee bit for "Being a very ignorant poster". Ouch. Whats your problem mate?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

To say that Englands backs weren't good is absurd.
Jason Robinson, Josh Lewsey, Will Greenwood, Matt Dawson were all excellent players, and are considered amongst the best of all in time in their respective positions.

 

[Sam Owen]

To say that Englands backs weren't good is absurd.
Jason Robinson, Josh Lewsey, Will Greenwood, Matt Dawson were all excellent players, and are considered amongst the best of all in time in their respective positions.

They were fantastic players especially Robinson but to me I dont think they were the best of all time. World champions that played test match Rugby very well and played together as a team. However their attack was just enough not the best Ive seen because it was mainly Wilko. Oh yeah you forgot the point scoring Wilkinson, how could you...

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Are you saying that the during Englands golden years they won due to their creative midfield? Or that Johnathon Spratt did well in the ANZC?

Edit, just saw my rep slide down a wee bit for "Being a very ignorant poster". Ouch. Whats your problem mate?

Just returning the one you sent me a while back ... or have one forgotten?

Spratt went to NZ and comeback ... the next big thing for Wales ... since a string of injuries has hampered his progress even further. Most people who saw him play said he looked good, so I'll take their word for it.

 

[Sam Owen]

hell nz dont need him, let him play for samoa instead at the world cup

Yeah would be cool to see him represent Samoa

We'd love to have him...'butter, we carn affod' lol.

 

[squirrel]

how the hell do you view these rep points

 

[ranger]

Just returning the one you sent me a while back ... or have one forgotten?

Spratt went to NZ and comeback ... the next big thing for Wales ... since a string of injuries has hampered his progress even further. Most people who saw him play said he looked good, so I'll take their word for it.

1) Are you serious? Grow up.

2) I followed all his games closely, the ITM is my favorite competition and Taranaki is my hometown. The guy on the bench was better than he was and the coach got the boot in part for not recognizing that. But sure if you really have your heart set on holding grudges about things i can't even remember, trust the word of "people"

 

[TRF_Olyy]

They were fantastic players especially Robinson but to me I dont think they were the best of all time. World champions that played test match Rugby very well and played together as a team. However their attack was just enough not the best Ive seen because it was mainly Wilko. Oh yeah you forgot the point scoring Wilkinson, how could you...

Really?
Dawson is one of the best SHs of the Pro era, him and Gregan i'd say
Greenwood was quality, especially considering he had to direct wilko around as well,
I'll accept Lewsey, as him and Robinson generally played the same positions, and Robbo was better

 

[Sam Owen]

Really?
Dawson is one of the best SHs of the Pro era, him and Gregan i'd say
Greenwood was quality, especially considering he had to direct wilko around as well,
I'll accept Lewsey, as him and Robinson generally played the same positions, and Robbo was better

They're great players they're world champs Gregan included. For me Wilkinson, Robinson, Dawson would come through in a lot of Rugby fans best 15. I dont know I myself dont really have a G/B.O.A.T team just too many good players from all over the world to name. I didnt really get to see much of Greenwood and Lewsey but what I saw from them in the world cup was champion stuff and thats why I cant say too much about them. Never really saw what they could really do, you know all the good stuff in club Rugby and some other internationals.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I get what you mean, maybe saying they're the best was bit of an exaggeration, but i couldn't work out what to say, saying they were "good players" seems an understatement
Making a "greatest XV" would be nigh on impossible, there have been far too many great players

 

[Darwin]

Just returning the one you sent me a while back ... or have one forgotten?

Spratt went to NZ and comeback ... the next big thing for Wales ... since a string of injuries has hampered his progress even further. Most people who saw him play said he looked good, so I'll take their word for it.

As much as I hate to do it, I have to agree with Ranger again - Spratt did not impress me either when he was in New Zealand. He didn't look out of place in the NPC, but didn't really excel - he certainly wouldn't have got a Super 14 contract if he was a New Zealand player. He did look like he had the potential to develop into a good quality player however, given he was only 21 or 22 at the time.

 

[nickdnz]

Really?
Dawson is one of the best SHs of the Pro era, him and Gregan i'd say
Greenwood was quality, especially considering he had to direct wilko around as well,
I'll accept Lewsey, as him and Robinson generally played the same positions, and Robbo was better

Justin Marshall I'd rate as another great scrum half of the pro era (RWC winner or not).

I think in fairness, it has to be said that England's rugby of 2002 & 2003 is so highly rated because their execution, work rate, kicking and game plan, was done to almost perfection. But I have to agree with Ranger, the rugby wasn't usually that pretty, with Cohen and Lewsey always doing well to finish off the tries, but there was never an element of "England can strike from anywhere". Jason Robinson was to an extent the exception.

 

[Teh Mite]

Justin Marshall I'd rate as another great scrum half of the pro era (RWC winner or not).

I think in fairness, it has to be said that England's rugby of 2002 & 2003 is so highly rated because their execution, work rate, kicking and game plan, was done to almost perfection. But I have to agree with Ranger, the rugby wasn't usually that pretty, with Cohen and Lewsey always doing well to finish off the tries, but there was never an element of "England can strike from anywhere". Jason Robinson was to an extent the exception.

You explain that to the Irish. Or the South Africans.

Actually, **** it, all the Tri-Nations. Just because they weren't as flamboyant as Carlos Spencers' All Blacks doesn't mean there wasn't some brilliant running rugby form that team, regardless of what the NZ press like to tell you.
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