Who is your all-time All Black 15?

[Randwick Kingfisher]

Your about to be in awe..heres mine

15. Christian Cullen
14. John Kirwan
13. Frank Bunce
12. John Schuster
11. Jonah Lomu
10. Daniel Carter
9. Syd Going
8. Zinzan Brooke
7. Micheal Jones
6. Colin Meads
5. Ian Jones
4. Chris Jack
3. Olo Brown
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
1. Carl Heyman

Reserves:-John Gallagher, Joe Stanley, Andrew Mehrtens, Wayne Shelford, Ali Williams, Craig Dowd, Kevin Mealamu.

 

[Ngapuhi]

That's better than most All time AB XV's i've seen. But here's mine.

15. C Cullen
14. J Wilson
13. F Bunce
12. B Cooke
11. J Lomu
10. G Fox
9. D Kirk
8. W Shelford c
7. R McCaw
6. M Jones
5. C Meads
4. A Haden
3. C Hayman
2. S Fitzpatrick
1. W Whinneray

Reserves:

T Umaga
S Pokere
D Carter
Z Brooke
A Williams
K Skinner
M Hammett

Coach:

F Allen

Selectors:

B Lochore, A Wylie

 

[Nickdnz]

Well, in fairness I havn't been alive to make a comparison between many players pre-professionalism but here is mine.

15. Christian Cullen
14. Joe Rokocoko (Just over Wilson)
13. Frank Bunce
12. Tana Umaga
11. Jonah Lomu
10. Andrew Mehrtens
9. Justin Marshall
8. Zinzan Brooke
7. Richie McCaw
6. Jerry Collins
5. Chris Jack
4. Ian Jones
3. Carl Hayman
2. Sean Fitzpatrik
1. Olo Brown

22. Jeff Wilson
21. Daniel Carter
20. Byron Kelleher
19. Wayne Shelford
18. Ali Williams
17. Tony Woodcock
16. Kevin Mealamu

Some of my reasoning for choosing this squad is because I think this would be the best All Black squad in the mordern game. As great as players like Colin Meads, John Kirwan and Syd Going were, I don't believe they would be as good today as they were in their times. Collin Meands used to actually jump in the line out and was 6'2'', do you honestly believe, he would be as good today as he was in his time? With the new defence structure I can't see Syd Going scoring as many tries as he used to and John Kirwan would get totally smoked on a rugby field today, he was very clever, and yes I've seen his solo tries, but many players today I believe would out run him. I'm not saying the players I have chosen are better players, I'm just saying they would play a better game under modern conditions then some of the legends prior to professionalism would.

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Sep 27 2009, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well, in fairness I havn't been alive to make a comparison between many players pre-professionalism but here is mine.

15. Christian Cullen
14. Joe Rokocoko (Just over Wilson)
13. Frank Bunce
12. Tana Umaga
11. Jonah Lomu
10. Andrew Mehrtens
9. Justin Marshall
8. Zinzan Brooke
7. Richie McCaw
6. Jerry Collins
5. Chris Jack
4. Ian Jones
3. Carl Hayman
2. Sean Fitzpatrik
1. Olo Brown

22. Jeff Wilson
21. Daniel Carter
20. Byron Kelleher
19. Wayne Shelford
18. Ali Williams
17. Tony Woodcock
16. Kevin Mealamu

Some of my reasoning for choosing this squad is because I think this would be the best All Black squad in the mordern game. As great as players like Colin Meads, John Kirwan and Syd Going were, I don't believe they would be as good today as they were in their times. Collin Meands used to actually jump in the line out and was 6'2'', do you honestly believe, he would be as good today as he was in his time? With the new defence structure I can't see Syd Going scoring as many tries as he used to and John Kirwan would get totally smoked on a rugby field today, he was very clever, and yes I've seen his solo tries, but many players today I believe would out run him. I'm not saying the players I have chosen are better players, I'm just saying they would play a better game under modern conditions then some of the legends prior to professionalism would.[/b]

Apart from your choice of Rokocoko over Wilson, thats the 15 I'd have chosen. I was torn between Mehrtens and Carter but went for Andrew over Dan, that said in 5 years time when this topic returns I'd fully expect Carter to be first name down.

 

[Nickdnz]

Yeah, I was stuck between Carter and Mehrtens, however my reasoning for both the Rokocoko and Mehrtens decision was this - Mehrtens can really only play 1st 5, where as Carter can cover 2nd 5 as well. Also Jeff Wilson can cover full back as well as wing, so Wilson would be more effective on the bench than Rokocoko.

 

[jawmalawm24]

Hard to pick really

15. George Nepia
14. Christian Cullen
13. Frank Bunce
12. Tana Umaga
11. Jonah Lomu
10. Daniel Carter
9. Sid Going
8. Buck Shelford c
7. Richie McCaw
6. Michael Jones
5. Colin Meads
4. Ian Jones
3. Carl Hayman
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
1. Olo Brown

 

[danger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Sep 27 2009, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well, in fairness I havn't been alive to make a comparison between many players pre-professionalism but here is mine.

15. Christian Cullen
14. Joe Rokocoko (Just over Wilson)
13. Frank Bunce
12. Tana Umaga
11. Jonah Lomu
10. Andrew Mehrtens
9. Justin Marshall
8. Zinzan Brooke
7. Richie McCaw
6. Jerry Collins
5. Chris Jack
4. Ian Jones
3. Carl Hayman
2. Sean Fitzpatrik
1. Olo Brown

22. Jeff Wilson
21. Daniel Carter
20. Byron Kelleher
19. Wayne Shelford
18. Ali Williams
17. Tony Woodcock
16. Kevin Mealamu

Some of my reasoning for choosing this squad is because I think this would be the best All Black squad in the mordern game. As great as players like Colin Meads, John Kirwan and Syd Going were, I don't believe they would be as good today as they were in their times. Collin Meands used to actually jump in the line out and was 6'2'', do you honestly believe, he would be as good today as he was in his time? With the new defence structure I can't see Syd Going scoring as many tries as he used to and John Kirwan would get totally smoked on a rugby field today, he was very clever, and yes I've seen his solo tries, but many players today I believe would out run him. I'm not saying the players I have chosen are better players, I'm just saying they would play a better game under modern conditions then some of the legends prior to professionalism would.[/b]

Dont agree with that one little bit. If these players were playing today, they would have grown up in the same systems of today, meaning they would have had access to the latest nutrution, weight training and speed training facilities.

The Human being hasnt evolved thaaat much since the 1980s mate, a superior athlete is a superior athlete. No matter when they are playing.

 

[Nickdnz]

Ok, that is rubbish. You can't just "assume" because they were good for the time, they will be good now. Yes they were good in their time, but you know what, they were farmers ect, they had other jobs, in a country that had a smaller population. I'm not saying they couldn't be good, but it is foolish to assume they will be as good now as they were then. My reasoning behind that was sound. Colins Meads is 6'2'', he would be the smallest lock in internationl rugby. People such as Syd Going and John Kirwan may be able to contend internationally, however I don't think they would have done as well in the professional error as they did in their time. You also made the statment that these players would be brought into todays training systems from a young age...that wasn't the argument, you have to take a player in the form he was in at the time, not just assume that he would be a great player now. Also as I stated, they played a different game back then, with rucking and line outs, and loosley regulated rules etc, so it is very hard to compair.

 

[jawmalawm24]

You can never compare old and new players of course the new players are gonna be better if they weren't than the game obviously hasn't evolved. Like danger says thou if they were around in this era they could have been really good players because of all the new things available to them.

We never had lifting a few years back, no 4 stage scrums and it was overarm throw ins so you just can't compare them. Players get paid they never use to 15 years ago. There are too many things to take into account and it's of no use comparing.

 

[Nickdnz]

Thank you Jawa, and that means if you have to choose a squad for modern day, you can only use players of the modern game (last 20 years absolute max).

 

[William18]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danger @ Sep 28 2009, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Sep 27 2009, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, in fairness I havn't been alive to make a comparison between many players pre-professionalism but here is mine.

15. Christian Cullen
14. Joe Rokocoko (Just over Wilson)
13. Frank Bunce
12. Tana Umaga
11. Jonah Lomu
10. Andrew Mehrtens
9. Justin Marshall
8. Zinzan Brooke
7. Richie McCaw
6. Jerry Collins
5. Chris Jack
4. Ian Jones
3. Carl Hayman
2. Sean Fitzpatrik
1. Olo Brown

22. Jeff Wilson
21. Daniel Carter
20. Byron Kelleher
19. Wayne Shelford
18. Ali Williams
17. Tony Woodcock
16. Kevin Mealamu

Some of my reasoning for choosing this squad is because I think this would be the best All Black squad in the mordern game. As great as players like Colin Meads, John Kirwan and Syd Going were, I don't believe they would be as good today as they were in their times. Collin Meands used to actually jump in the line out and was 6'2'', do you honestly believe, he would be as good today as he was in his time? With the new defence structure I can't see Syd Going scoring as many tries as he used to and John Kirwan would get totally smoked on a rugby field today, he was very clever, and yes I've seen his solo tries, but many players today I believe would out run him. I'm not saying the players I have chosen are better players, I'm just saying they would play a better game under modern conditions then some of the legends prior to professionalism would.[/b]

Dont agree with that one little bit. If these players were playing today, they would have grown up in the same systems of today, meaning they would have had access to the latest nutrution, weight training and speed training facilities.

The Human being hasnt evolved thaaat much since the 1980s mate, a superior athlete is a superior athlete. No matter when they are playing.
[/b][/quote]
I agree with you.

You can't compare how players from the past would do in today's environment. There are attributes which past eras had which make them better. I believe playing as amateurs made them more humble as people and played for the jersey more. Growing up on the farm was very good preparation and you don't see people as tough as Wayne Shelford nowadays. They were also probably smarter, past All blacks would have secured us a few more world cups. Really it is useless trying to think what players from different generations would be like today. it is much easier to judge them on the influence they had on their own era.

 

[Randwick Kingfisher]

All the All Black 15's Ive seen on this post so far are good teams, no doubt.

As for this debate about 'would he have been good in the modern game?', well thats another post/thread isnt it.

No right or wrong 15's but I based mine on my knowledge on people who had great success in their respective positions. i.e Kirwan= tries scored, legacy, feats. Hence the heading 'Who is your all-time AB 15?

I would have picked Lomu and Wilson as wingers as well but Kirwan was great, Kirwan was a world champ Lomu and Wilson cant say that (sad FACT).

Good 15's none the less.

 

[danger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Sep 28 2009, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Ok, that is rubbish. You can't just "assume" because they were good for the time, they will be good now. Yes they were good in their time, but you know what, they were farmers ect, they had other jobs, in a country that had a smaller population. I'm not saying they couldn't be good, but it is foolish to assume they will be as good now as they were then. My reasoning behind that was sound. Colins Meads is 6'2'', he would be the smallest lock in internationl rugby. People such as Syd Going and John Kirwan may be able to contend internationally, however I don't think they would have done as well in the professional error as they did in their time. You also made the statment that these players would be brought into todays training systems from a young age...that wasn't the argument, you have to take a player in the form he was in at the time, not just assume that he would be a great player now. Also as I stated, they played a different game back then, with rucking and line outs, and loosley regulated rules etc, so it is very hard to compair.[/b]

Madness.

I can "assume" that they would be good actually, because i am rating these players based on their natural ability. Do you really think in the 20 something years since JK was undoubtedly the best winger in the world, the human being has evolved so much that he would go from being the worlds best to getting smoked.

Its also ridiculous to just lift him from 1987 and pluck him down in 2009 and expect him to be good. That is by no means a test of his natural ability as a rugby player. The players that "smoke" him would only be better due to external factors, not how good they are. You say that he had a job, how does that make him less of a great rugby player Why take players from then and play them today anyway? the guys that adjusted to the game of 1987 vs the guys that adjusted to the game of 2009, P.S its played in 2009. how fair is that?

A fair test would be to compare natural born talent. JK was mighty quick, smart, agile 6'3 and 97 kilo. Thats in the days before weight training and nutrition. Hes an amazing athlete, and if he had a son grow up today with the same rugby brain, the same frame and genetics, receive the same training that all the proffessionals today recieve, he would kill.

As for Colin Meads, obviously if he were playing today he wouldnt play lock, lock then and now are to completely different positions anyway. He would probably be hooker in todays game.

I just hope that when youre old and there have been even more advancements to rugby and professional sports in general, you hear some kid talking about how Christian Cullen and Jonah Lomu would get smoked by anyone now days, then realise where im coming from.

 

[Nickdnz]

So in other words you have found some amazing way of predicting a players national talent, and not only that, a way of predicting how a player would perform playing in a position never played before, well done.

I was in no way claiming they wern't great players danger, in fact had you read my comments properly you would have realised I said that there was no way of compairing how they would perform today under todays conditions. My comment about them having other professions was stating that prior to Rugby becoming professional. If you were to compair players from then to now, you would also have to take into mind the oppersition of the players and their improvments. By my understanding of compairing a All Blacks 15, I am presuming you talk about players of how they were as athletes from then. Other wise it is like me saying what would win in a race, a dragster now or a dragster 45 years ago, and anwsering well is the dragster 45 years ago were invented today...You can't messure someones natural abuility, and even if they could have been great players today, how would you possibly know? If a kid said in 40 years, that a winger that can run 100m in 8 seconds would have smoked Christian Cullen and Jonah Lomu, other then my own affection for those players, how could I disprove that?

Yes I am making the assumption it is playing the modern game. If I made a list of who would be better playing the game under the conditions pre professionalism then I would choose JK ect. I don't think Richie McCaw would last at the bottom of a ruck with people like "Cowboy" Mark Shaw rucking him to pieces, however McCaw does very well in todays game.

I get where you are all coming from in term of how much players impacted the sport, however the argument is the best XV not the most influential. I still maintain the opinion that there is no way of presuming how good a player could have been in todays game, as apposed to how good a player is in todays game. That being said this is supposed to be a fun list, and we have strayed off topic somewhat.

 

[danger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Sep 28 2009, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

So in other words you have found some amazing way of predicting a players national talent, and not only that, a way of predicting how a player would perform playing in a position never played before, well done.

I was in no way claiming they wern't great players danger, in fact had you read my comments properly you would have realised I said that there was no way of compairing how they would perform today under todays conditions. My comment about them having other professions was stating that prior to Rugby becoming professional. If you were to compair players from then to now, you would also have to take into mind the oppersition of the players and their improvments. By my understanding of compairing a All Blacks 15, I am presuming you talk about players of how they were as athletes from then. Other wise it is like me saying what would win in a race, a dragster now or a dragster 45 years ago, and anwsering well is the dragster 45 years ago were invented today...You can't messure someones natural abuility, and even if they could have been great players today, how would you possibly know? If a kid said in 40 years, that a winger that can run 100m in 8 seconds would have smoked Christian Cullen and Jonah Lomu, other then my own affection for those players, how could I disprove that?

Yes I am making the assumption it is playing the modern game. If I made a list of who would be better playing the game under the conditions pre professionalism then I would choose JK ect. I don't think Richie McCaw would last at the bottom of a ruck with people like "Cowboy" Mark Shaw rucking him to pieces, however McCaw does very well in todays game.

I get where you are all coming from in term of how much players impacted the sport, however the argument is the best XV not the most influential. I still maintain the opinion that there is no way of presuming how good a player could have been in todays game, as apposed to how good a player is in todays game. That being said this is supposed to be a fun list, and we have strayed off topic somewhat.[/b]

I just think its Mighty unfair that players be excluded from a "Best of All Time Team" because they didnt have the same technological advancements. It may aswell be a "Best of the last 10 or so years team"

 

[Nickdnz]

Well I didn't look at the list as "the best of all time" team, I looked at it as "What team in AB's history would perform best in the modern game". There really was no right or wrong anwser though, I mean I chose my list under the the idea that it would be presuming they were players as they were from their time, if you percieve the question differently then by all means choose a different XV :itsok:

 

[Ngapuhi]

Firstly, what is the modern game? OK here's my "modern team" from 1987 onwards, with modern coaches as i'm a little bored lol

15. C Cullen
14. J Wilson
13. F Bunce
12. D Carter
11. J Lomu
10. G Fox
9. D Kirk
8. W Shelford ©
7. R McCaw
6. M Jones
5. A Williams
4. R Brooke
3. Hayman
2. Fitzpatrick
1. Loe

Reserves: T Umaga, J Preston, Z Brooke, I Jones, C Dowd, M Hammett

Coach: B Lochore Selectors: L Mains, A Wylie

 

[Ngapuhi]

I doubt you'd find a better loose forward combination than that. Mike Brewer was a good flanker i liked as well. I think it has excellent balance in there if I say so myself.

 

[Nickdnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ngapuhi @ Oct 2 2009, 01:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I doubt you'd find a better loose forward combination than that. Mike Brewer was a good flanker i liked as well. I think it has excellent balance in there if I say so myself.[/b]

It just so happens I think I have >.> Robin Brooke, really? I mean he was a solid lock, but people such as Ian Jones, Chris Jack and I'd go as far to say Brad Thorne were better...I'd rate Andrew Mehrtens well above Grant Fox, and I'd rate both Marsall and Kelleher above Kirk (despite the fact Kirk didn't play in the professional erra). Richard Loe over Olo Brown and Tony Woodcock? Interesting call as Richard Loe was a tough guy, but I think the other two were a little bit better. Michael Jones over Jerry Collins...it can be argued sure. Not really my first choice Ngapuhi. The modern game refers to the Professional erra which was realistically from about 1994 onwards...

 

[Randwick Kingfisher]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Oct 2 2009, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ngapuhi @ Oct 2 2009, 01:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt you'd find a better loose forward combination than that. Mike Brewer was a good flanker i liked as well. I think it has excellent balance in there if I say so myself.[/b]

It just so happens I think I have >.> Robin Brooke, really? I mean he was a solid lock, but people such as Ian Jones, Chris Jack and I'd go as far to say Brad Thorne were better...I'd rate Andrew Mehrtens well above Grant Fox, and I'd rate both Marsall and Kelleher above Kirk (despite the fact Kirk didn't play in the professional erra). Richard Loe over Olo Brown and Tony Woodcock? Interesting call as Richard Loe was a tough guy, but I think the other two were a little bit better. Michael Jones over Jerry Collins...it can be argued sure. Not really my first choice Ngapuhi. The modern game refers to the Professional erra which was realistically from about 1994 onwards...
[/b][/quote]



Oh cmon Nickdnz leave these guys alone thats their team and they're probably right. These are all good players that danger and Ngapuhi have put together. And they do have some valid points just like you Nick.

I understand where your comming from with the modern player scenario and Im sure thats already crossed danger, Ngapuhi's minds before they put in their awesome team.