Who is England 12?

[91jmay]

After Burgess' performance as a 6 on Friday against the Falcons, I can't see him moving back to centre (meaning that I think it's clear he makes much more of an impact as a 6 than he ever did as a 12.) So now he's off the table as a 12. So in my mind the best options are Eastmond, Barritt and Tuilagi. Eastmond offers a lot in attack, and as you said is fully capable in defence aswell. Barritt is a rock in defence, the best defensive centre in England... by quite a long way too. The problem is though, that although he is far from bad as an attacker, he offers far less than Eastmond or Tuilagi. Which brings me onto Tuilagi. In my opinion he's our best bet in 12. Although he usually plays as a 13 he can easily make the transition to 12 and has done previously for the Lions. A combination of him and Joseph could be one of the best in World Rugby, with Tuilagi punching holes in the defence and Joseph running through them.

Agree with all this, although twelvetrees would have to show awful form to miss out of SL plans I think. Eastmond won't go to WC.

 

[yaboyjj]

After Burgess' performance as a 6 on Friday against the Falcons, I can't see him moving back to centre (meaning that I think it's clear he makes much more of an impact as a 6 than he ever did as a 12.) So now he's off the table as a 12. So in my mind the best options are Eastmond, Barritt and Tuilagi. Eastmond offers a lot in attack, and as you said is fully capable in defence aswell. Barritt is a rock in defence, the best defensive centre in England... by quite a long way too. The problem is though, that although he is far from bad as an attacker, he offers far less than Eastmond or Tuilagi. Which brings me onto Tuilagi. In my opinion he's our best bet in 12. Although he usually plays as a 13 he can easily make the transition to 12 and has done previously for the Lions. A combination of him and Joseph could be one of the best in World Rugby, with Tuilagi punching holes in the defence and Joseph running through them.

I expect Tuilagi-Joseph will be tried at some stage, but right now he is injured, and Lanky should not gamble on that coming together for the world cup. I'm not sure Eastmond is anywhere near the frame right now as his form has nosedived somewhat and will probably have a job taking the Bath shirt back at this rate. Barritt certainly has his virtues, and defence wins tournaments, but kinda runs tangent to what England are creating with Ford/Joseph. Personally I think England should 'gamble' on the form IC in the prem, which is Hill- more likely though (albeit still unlikely) is Slade, although I have a preference to Hill for his physicality- which is required imo.
Farrell will come back into the frame imo, and I would put money on either him or Barritt playing come September at IC.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Eastmond won't be our 12 and nothing he does on pitch will change that. Lancaster has decided Eastmond is too small and so he won't ever hold that position. 12 trees is our ideal 12 if only he could get some damn consistancy. Burrell is pants and Barritt is a defencive rock. Tuilagi is our future IF (that's a big if) the ball doesn't die with him in every contact. We have an incredibly skilled 13 in JJ outside him and if Manu butchers chances by smashing into contact and ignoring JJ at 13, he doesn't deserve the 12 position. England can't afford selfish glory hunters at this stage. A large part of the reason why the wings never saw the ball with Tuilagi at 13 is he would never bloody pass, he would ALWAYS take the contact. If his game style is still to be a thick headed wrecking ball then he has no place in the England squad unfortunately. If he realises passing might yield better results then he could be exactly what we need.

Future prospects of Slade and Devoto for post world cup are more exciting. Manu has power but I'm not convinced he has the brains for a world class centre.

 

[91jmay]

I don't see how 12 trees is the ideal, his distribution is sorely lacking for me and loads of errors in his game.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't see how 12 trees is the ideal, his distribution is sorely lacking for me and loads of errors in his game.

Did you stop reading halfway through a sentence? :huh:

He said 36 would be ideal....if he could be consistent.
He's shown he's got all the skills we want, it's just he only shows them a handful of times a year.

 

[Peat]

Balls to all that, gamble on Tuilagi.

We have precisely 2 international centres that scare people. Tuilagi is one of them. You can count the number of centres who could possibly offer more go forwards than him on the fingers of a blind butcher. Keep making him watch the Lions - Western Force highlights so he can remind himself how he's meant to do it. If he doesn't, well, that's what miss passes and broken play's for. Not fool proof, but it has more potential than the alternatives and is probably just as likely to work.

And post-WC Slade needs to play 10 exclusively for his club. So there.

 

[91jmay]

Did you stop reading halfway through a sentence? :huh:

He said 36 would be ideal....if he could be consistent.
He's shown he's got all the skills we want, it's just he only shows them a handful of times a year.

Did you just not read mine at all? I don't think he has the skills. I think he is big, and can kick and does little else of note.
Manu has shown far more distribution skill than him in a Lions jersey than 12 trees has done at any time I've seen him..

 

[goodNumber10]

Did you just not read mine at all? I don't think he has the skills. I think he is big, and can kick and does little else of note.
Manu has shown far more distribution skill than him in a Lions jersey than 12 trees has done at any time I've seen him..

They've both got (about) 1 game in a lions jersey, so not sure it's a relevant comparison.

12trees was/is a converted fly half, it's a bit much to claim Tuilagi has better distribution skills when all the evidence points to the contrary.

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Eastmond won't be our 12 and nothing he does on pitch will change that. Lancaster has decided Eastmond is too small and so he won't ever hold that position. 12 trees is our ideal 12 if only he could get some damn consistancy. Burrell is pants and Barritt is a defencive rock. Tuilagi is our future IF (that's a big if) the ball doesn't die with him in every contact. We have an incredibly skilled 13 in JJ outside him and if Manu butchers chances by smashing into contact and ignoring JJ at 13, he doesn't deserve the 12 position. England can't afford selfish glory hunters at this stage. A large part of the reason why the wings never saw the ball with Tuilagi at 13 is he would never bloody pass, he would ALWAYS take the contact. If his game style is still to be a thick headed wrecking ball then he has no place in the England squad unfortunately. If he realises passing might yield better results then he could be exactly what we need.

Future prospects of Slade and Devoto for post world cup are more exciting. Manu has power but I'm not convinced he has the brains for a world class centre.

out of curisoity how many tries were scored by our wingers on receiving a pass from JJ? in fact how many times did JJ pass to a winger in the 6nations?

(i dont' know the answer, i'm genuinely curious)

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

out of curisoity how many tries were scored by our wingers on receiving a pass from JJ? in fact how many times did JJ pass to a winger in the 6nations?

(i dont' know the answer, i'm genuinely curious)

Not sure but I have seen JJ do some nice passes out to the wing a few times. The most recent club game had a try scored by a JJ pass to the wing. I can't remember Tuialgi doing that. On top of that JJ at least presents the option of passing, Tuilagi often has the ball tucked under one arm not looking anywhere except at the player in front. He telegraphs the fact he has no intention of passing at all.

 

[Peat]

They've both got (about) 1 game in a lions jersey, so not sure it's a relevant comparison.

12trees was/is a converted fly half, it's a bit much to claim Tuilagi has better distribution skills when all the evidence points to the contrary.

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out of curisoity how many tries were scored by our wingers on receiving a pass from JJ? in fact how many times did JJ pass to a winger in the 6nations?

(i dont' know the answer, i'm genuinely curious)

Joseph is listed as creating no assists on ESPN. His P/R is as follows:

Ita - 2/6
Ire - 3/7
Sco - 6/6
Wal - 2/5
Fra - 9/8

Tuilagi's 6 6N games (no assists either)

Wal 13 - 3/7
Ita 13 - 1/9
Fra 13 - 2/7
Ire 12 - 1/4
Fra 12 - 2/6
Wal 12 - 5/9

Not wholly dissimilar. Obviously that's really, really blunt use of stats there, so maybe a pinch of salt needed... but I remember the 2011 13 stats looking a fair bit like that. I might dig out Burrell's for giggles - the evidence so far suggests England's 13s just don't pass much and that JJ isn't completely free of that.

edit: I'm lazy - Burrell's are very close to Joseph, but with one less low passing match and one more nigh-equal passing match, plus an assist.

edit edit: In Tuilagi's three matches at 12 I could be bothered to look at, he passed and ran more or less equally in two, and ran everything in one. Ironically Burrell is more selfish at 12 than at 13 (although clearly tactics plays a part)

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It doesn't talk about the quality of passes though, popping up a hospital pass and making a good one that puts someone into space are very different. Still my gut feeling is that Joseph not only passes better but presents a passing threat that Tuilagi doesn't. Tuilagi could not have done that pass that put Rokoduguni in last game and I've definitely seen him fire long passes to wingers before putting them into space.

 

[Peat]

Well Joseph probably is a better playmaker, yeah. Not really arguing that.

Everything you said about Tuilagi not passing the ball though? Yup.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think the main problem with tuilagi is that he's injured and won't have a chance to play much at all before the World Cup.

In that time we are expecting him to not get injured again, move to 12 for just the international games, preform better than these 12s

Barritt
Burrell
12trees
Hill
Slade
Devoto

I know it works in theory but I just can't see it happening. Anyone remember his terrible performances at 12 in South Africa?

 

[Peat]

He's back for the warm up games, right? That'll do me, not certain it will work but gods knows all of those options there are gambles as well.

And I thought he was decent enough, all things considered, in his stint at 12 in SA.

 

[MrTea_32]

After Burgess' performance as a 6 on Friday against the Falcons, I can't see him moving back to centre (meaning that I think it's clear he makes much more of an impact as a 6 than he ever did as a 12.) So now he's off the table as a 12. So in my mind the best options are Eastmond, Barritt and Tuilagi. Eastmond offers a lot in attack, and as you said is fully capable in defence aswell. Barritt is a rock in defence, the best defensive centre in England... by quite a long way too. The problem is though, that although he is far from bad as an attacker, he offers far less than Eastmond or Tuilagi. Which brings me onto Tuilagi. In my opinion he's our best bet in 12. Although he usually plays as a 13 he can easily make the transition to 12 and has done previously for the Lions. A combination of him and Joseph could be one of the best in World Rugby, with Tuilagi punching holes in the defence and Joseph running through them.

My first thread I had eastmond down as the number 1 choice but I think if fully fit I think you have to go with manu - jj.
There's not much time til the rwc but this is a partnership that if it works could be one of the best centre partnerships in the world so it has to be tried.
With kyle Eastmond I see him as more.of an impact player. He's someone who can make things happen out of nothing, if we need tries bring him around 60 mins when the opposition are getting tired and let him make the breaks he does.
Bringing on twelvetrees doesn't really do.anything, he's no Brad barritt in defence and he's nothing special in attack.
Most positions now in the backline can be covered by someone else already on the pitch so I think have two different style players on the bench like farrell/eastmond or barritt/cipriani.
You've then got someone who can shore up the defence if needed and you've got your game changer if you need something to happen.
Saying all this it's something Lancaster wouldn't do, he'll stick with twelvetrees bringing him on to not do to much.
Benches are meant to make an impact like our forwards are capable of but for some reason he doesn't always pick backs that do and if he does he doesn't use them, cipriani should been brought on alot earlier in the Ireland game.

Sam Burgess has found his position now he's used so much better in the forwards I hope we don't see him in the centres again.
Does anyone know if he's done any training with the England team on the flank or has it just been in the centres?
I'm not saying he should be in the squad as a 6 I was just wondering.

 

[Tony Manx]

Cannot see how Tuilagi can possibly be picked to play in the RWC solely on the back of a few warm up matches after such a long injury and proven injury proclivity!

These demands for his return are similar to those for one for Corbs who has done really very little in the games (certainly the ones I have seen) since his return to demonstrate he is the player he was before injury or, indeed, worthy of any automatic selection.

I do hope Lancaster does not select his squad on reputation rather than proven form!

....There's not much time til the rwc but this is a partnership that if it works could be one of the best centre partnerships in the world so it has to be tried...

This is the RWC and the time for trying new combinations is long past!!

 

[Peat]

Managers chuck players straight from injuries into internationals all the time. Not sure what the issue is there. Lancaster's done it twice with Tuilagi already iirc.

And I hope Lancaster picks his squad on individual ability and ability to play within the team. Which means Manu.

 

[yaboyjj]

Cannot see how Tuilagi can possibly be picked to play in the RWC solely on the back of a few warm up matches after such a long injury and proven injury proclivity!

These demands for his return are similar to those for one for Corbs who has done really very little in the games (certainly the ones I have seen) since his return to demonstrate he is the player he was before injury or, indeed, worthy of any automatic selection.

I do hope Lancaster does not select his squad on reputation rather than proven form!



This is the RWC and the time for trying new combinations is long past!!

soo what are you trying to say- stick with Burrell?
Joseph is nailed on imo, but neither Barritt nor Twelvetrees (iirc) have had any time playing with him, so it's basically either Burrel or Easmond

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think it's just been in the centres so far with England. For the RWC a 45 man squad is being selected so I have no doubt that Lancaster will fit Burgess into that somewhere, whether it's 100% earned or not.

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Anyone thought about Elliot Daly at all? I can't see him getting into the starting XV but with him being able to play centre, wing or fullback with the form he's in I can't think of a better man to fill the 23 shirt.

 

[goodNumber10]

He's back for the warm up games, right? That'll do me, not certain it will work but gods knows all of those options there are gambles as well.

And I thought he was decent enough, all things considered, in his stint at 12 in SA.

if there is one thing we learnt the last "AI's to 6nations" it's that if we don't get over the gain line/set targets we don't have the creativity to open defences, we don't punch enough with our forwards so it has to come from somewhere.

There is no other back in world rugby who can carry like Tuilagi does at the moment, battering ram or not he has to be in the team as he just sucks defenders in - the question purely comes down to 12 or 13, and that comes down to whether or not we can play a ball handler at 12.

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I think it's just been in the centres so far with England. For the RWC a 45 man squad is being selected so I have no doubt that Lancaster will fit Burgess into that somewhere, whether it's 100% earned or not.

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Anyone thought about Elliot Daly at all? I can't see him getting into the starting XV but with him being able to play centre, wing or fullback with the form he's in I can't think of a better man to fill the 23 shirt.

I think every person on this forum has at some point talked about Daley being brought in, but he just wont' force his way into the squad before the world cup... i don't think he'll ever break through in the current set up.

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soo what are you trying to say- stick with Burrell?
Joseph is nailed on imo, but neither Barritt nor Twelvetrees (iirc) have had any time playing with him, so it's basically either Burrel or Easmond

Eastmond is done, Unless there is a run of injuries he won't feature again this side of next years summer Tour (is there one?)