Weakest position in the All Blacks squad

[ABs2011]

Why do people rate Luke Whitelock? He underwhelms me everytime I see him play. I've watched a lot of ITM cup and he definitely doesn't stand out above the rest of the number 8's going round.

To be fair I haven't seen much of him at all this year so maybe (if what you say is true) he isn't coming on as many had hoped. However, in saying that, he is young, had a lot of success at Junior level, has leadership qualities, comes from a pretty good pedigree, has the necessary skill set and physique for an 8, and is well respected within the Crusaders and AB camp. That's how I see him anyway.

I would like to see more of him, but tough to keep up with all the rugby these days.

 

[Jaguares]

In terms of injuries there is an obvious difference if you are keeping up to date with the respective players status:
Jane is back training (and reportedly not far a away from a Lions return).
Todd is out and almost certain to be fit for the tour.

Just so you understand, the point that people were having you up on in the Piutau at 12 debate was when you implied that Piutau would cover at 12 should both Nonu and Cruden go off because he was one of only 3 back reserves. You seemed to think that because Hansen had his bench made up in such a way, Hansen also agreed with you that Piutau was the logical 12 cover.

At least two of us tried to explain to you that the most likely scenario should Nonu and Cruden go off was that the more senior player, the more versatile player, and the player with more experience in the centers (Ben Smith) would be the one to shift positions to cover the gap left by Nonu...

As it happened that is EXACTLY what transpired. You did note that Smith moved to 12 and Piutau slotted in at his usual full back role right?

Anyway, you seem to largely ignore those that are trying to explain the game to you a bit more, so I feel like I'm flogging a dead horse! Hopefully you've taken something on board?

I know the injury status of players, Matt Todd is recently injured and Cory Jane was injured a long time ago so him should return to the field soon. I thought that their roster was long-term, perhaps for the next RWC or something, so I asked that included Matt Todd.

About the player number 12, also think that Ben Smith can play in that position. I think Hansen respected the antiquity of Ben Smith over Charles in ABs, any two can play at those positions, they are very complete players, but I think Steve must seize the moment of Ben, he's a rocket right now.

Cheers

Todd will be out until next year, he might not be back in time for the start of the season. I haven't heard a lot about Jane lately, but I believe he was hoping to be back in time for the final rounds of the ITM Cup. Conrad Smith is taking a sabbatical.

Edit: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/sport/lions/9223735/Janes-return-hinges-on-chat-with-Boyd

Jane will play this Saturday.

I know, is that I thought your list was long-term, for the next years.

Cheers

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Why do people rate Luke Whitelock? He underwhelms me everytime I see him play. I've watched a lot of ITM cup and he definitely doesn't stand out above the rest of the number 8's going round.

I don't rate him at all...

 

[ABs2011]

About the player number 12, also think that Ben Smith can play in that position. I think Hansen respected the antiquity of Ben Smith over Charles in ABs, any two can play at those positions, they are very complete players, but I think Steve must seize the moment of Ben, he's a rocket right now.

Cheers

Wow, you really don't like to admit it when you are wrong do you!

 

[Larksea]

Why do people rate Luke Whitelock? He underwhelms me everytime I see him play. I've watched a lot of ITM cup and he definitely doesn't stand out above the rest of the number 8's going round.

I really rate him long term.

IN NZ we have three 22 year old top level prospects for 6/8

Shields
Luatua
Luke Whitelock

they are all quite even IMO, luatua has the edge now simply because he has got the gametime under his belt after Kaino moved overseas and left a spot open at the blues. Shields and Whitelock have had to share gametime with much more experienced players. I think we are starting to see Shields edge Vito and Luke edge his older brother.

Luke is smaller than Luatua but I think hes more physical, he definately hits harder on defense and does not go down as easy as Luatua does carrying the ball. Luatua is obviously taller and has a click more speed.

Luke has a nice accurate offload and support game on attack.

I still think shields has and edge over the other two long term though, he is one to watch. He has that x-factor because he has a genuine natural power running game that you cant teach. Sure he needs to work on his accuracy but his ability to run the ball and blow over the advantage line will be a huge asset, an ace in his hand he has proven he can turn a game with.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I really rate him long term.

IN NZ we have three 22 year old top level prospects for 6/8

Shields
Luatua
Luke Whitelock

they are all quite even IMO, luatua has the edge now simply because he has got the gametime under his belt after Kaino moved overseas and left a spot open at the blues. Shields and Whitelock have had to share gametime with much more experienced players. I think we are starting to see Shields edge Vito and Luke edge his older brother.

Luke is smaller than Luatua but I think hes more physical, he definately hits harder on defense and does not go down as easy as Luatua does carrying the ball. Luatua is obviously taller and has a click more speed.

Luke has a nice accurate offload and support game on attack.

I still think shields has and edge over the other two long term though, he is one to watch. He has that x-factor because he has a genuine natural power running game that you cant teach. Sure he needs to work on his accuracy but his ability to run the ball and blow over the advantage line will be a huge asset, an ace in his hand he has proven he can turn a game with.

Are you being serious? More physical than Luatua? I haven't seen him impose himself on anyone in the way Shields does at ITM level, or Luatua does at Super/test level. Luatua is a fantastic ball carrier, he gets the advantage line almost every time, that's at Super and test level. Whitelock doesn't even do that at ITM cup.

I was going to suggest ball carrying as a weakness of Whitelock's game. Maybe he is just like his brother, under the radar, hits a heap of rucks and makes a lot of tackles, without really standing out in a game. I haven't seen anything from him to suggest he should be anywhere near the AB's.. most justification people give is that he was great at the under 20's.

 

[Larksea]

Luatua is big and fast but seems to go down relatively easy when tacklers get hold of him. His strength is his speed and work rate. On defense he is about Volume rather than stopping power and on attack hes more likely to hit a gap than bust through another player.

more like an Adam Thomson than a Kaino/Messam

I think you under rate Luke, ive seen him do good things with ball in hand and make big tackles genuinely stopping guys in their tracks. The advantage Luatua has is that we have seen a heck of a lot more of him than he have of Luke or Shields.

Going to be an interesting battle between them over the next 6-8 years. Could see Luke or Shields move to 8, we seem to develop a heck of a lot more talented #6s than we do #8s

 

[ABs2011]

Luatua is big and fast but seems to go down relatively easy when tacklers get hold of him. His strength is his speed and work rate. On defense he is about Volume rather than stopping power and on attack hes more likely to hit a gap than bust through another player.

more like an Adam Thomson than a Kaino/Messam

I think you under rate Luke, ive seen him do good things with ball in hand and make big tackles genuinely stopping guys in their tracks. The advantage Luatua has is that we have seen a heck of a lot more of him than he have of Luke or Shields.

Going to be an interesting battle between them over the next 6-8 years. Could see Luke or Shields move to 8, we seem to develop a heck of a lot more talented #6s than we do #8s

Hi Larksea - I respect your opinions on Whitelock and Shields but the problem I have with your comparison of the three guys is that in the same breath you say donmcdazzle under rates Whitelock yet for all intents and purposes you have never given Luatua the credit he deserves.

You have constantly tried to differentiate the three by saying Luatua just had more game time. I can't help but feel you are biased to the other two and can't see the woods through thee trees. Sure Luatua has benefitted from Kaino leaving, but it is what has transpired next that should be the focus. He dominated for the Blues (in a pretty average team - even two seasons ago when he first got a start) - Neither Whitelock nor Shields have managed that. THEN he gets his chance for the ABs (which is by no means just a product of Kaino leaving, this is simply down to impressing the most important people in NZ rugby) and puts in three dominant performances in a row against the worlds best.

Credit where credit is due is all I am asking and Luatau has earned that now at the highest level of Rugby. I'm not sure what more the guy can do to differentiate himself from the likes of Shields and Whitelock in your mind?

 

[Darwin]

Luke Whitelock is about as physical as a wet banana. I struggle to think of 6/8 in the country that is less effective with ball in hand. I have no idea what the AB's selectors (and Larksea) see in him. He has a good (but not outstanding) work-rate, generally makes his tackles, has a good passing game and can do a good offload now and then, and (apparently) has good leadership qualities. It wasn't as though he was even that good at Under 20 level - he was completely outshone by Rory Grice in 2010 and Brad Shields in 2011 (and I'm just considering at players who played 6/8 for New Zealand in those tournaments). It is not as though he have even been effective at ITM Cup level - Nasi Manu and Jordan Taufua have standout far more than him for Canterbury this season.

Luatua is far more physical. He may not be Jerome Kaino (yet), but he is far from Adam Thomson. I'm not sure whether you have been watching him this year Larksea, but a trademark of Luatua's game this season has been the metres he makes in close contact (in much the same way Kaino used to do). Luatua certainly needs to improve his physicality in defense, but he would still be a far more physical defender than Luke Whitelock.

Just a few stats from the 2013 Super Rugby season (courtesy of Foxsports.com.au):

L Whitelock: 717 mins played, 82 runs, 7 tackle busts, 4 offloads, 2 linebreaks, 0 linebraks created.
S Luatua: 1055 mins played, 115 runs, 19 tackle busts, 15 offloads, 5 linebreaks, 5 linebreaks created.

I think that emphasizes pretty well how effective (or otherwise....) Luke Whitelock is with ball in hand compared to Luatua....

 

[ABs2011]

Luke Whitelock is about as physical as a wet banana. I struggle to think of 6/8 in the country that is less effective with ball in hand. I have no idea what the AB's selectors (and Larksea) see in him. He has a good (but not outstanding) work-rate, generally makes his tackles, has a good passing game and can do a good offload now and then, and (apparently) has good leadership qualities. It wasn't as though he was even that good at Under 20 level - he was completely outshone by Rory Grice in 2010 and Brad Shields in 2011 (and I'm just considering at players who played 6/8 for New Zealand in those tournaments). It is not as though he have even been effective at ITM Cup level - Nasi Manu and Jordan Taufua have standout far more than him for Canterbury this season.

Luatua is far more physical. He may not be Jerome Kaino (yet), but he is far from Adam Thomson. I'm not sure whether you have been watching him this year Larksea, but a trademark of Luatua's game this season has been the metres he makes in close contact (in much the same way Kaino used to do). Luatua certainly needs to improve his physicality in defense, but he would still be a far more physical defender than Luke Whitelock.

Just a few stats from the 2013 Super Rugby season (courtesy of Foxsports.com.au):

L Whitelock: 717 mins played, 82 runs, 7 tackle busts, 4 offloads, 2 linebreaks, 0 linebraks created.
S Luatua: 1055 mins played, 115 runs, 19 tackle busts, 15 offloads, 5 linebreaks, 5 linebreaks created.

I think that emphasizes pretty well how effective (or otherwise....) Luke Whitelock is with ball in hand compared to Luatua....

We must remember Luatua is only 22 - Kaino didn't really come into his own until he was about 26 or so (arguably even later), and Messam has only really shone from about 27 onwards. Just another aspect of Luatua's rise that is exceptional IMHO!

Nice stats by the way!

 

[nickdnz]

Luke Whitelock is about as physical as a wet banana. I struggle to think of 6/8 in the country that is less effective with ball in hand. I have no idea what the AB's selectors (and Larksea) see in him. He has a good (but not outstanding) work-rate, generally makes his tackles, has a good passing game and can do a good offload now and then, and (apparently) has good leadership qualities. It wasn't as though he was even that good at Under 20 level - he was completely outshone by Rory Grice in 2010 and Brad Shields in 2011 (and I'm just considering at players who played 6/8 for New Zealand in those tournaments). It is not as though he have even been effective at ITM Cup level - Nasi Manu and Jordan Taufua have standout far more than him for Canterbury this season.

Luatua is far more physical. He may not be Jerome Kaino (yet), but he is far from Adam Thomson. I'm not sure whether you have been watching him this year Larksea, but a trademark of Luatua's game this season has been the metres he makes in close contact (in much the same way Kaino used to do). Luatua certainly needs to improve his physicality in defense, but he would still be a far more physical defender than Luke Whitelock.

Just a few stats from the 2013 Super Rugby season (courtesy of Foxsports.com.au):

L Whitelock: 717 mins played, 82 runs, 7 tackle busts, 4 offloads, 2 linebreaks, 0 linebraks created.
S Luatua: 1055 mins played, 115 runs, 19 tackle busts, 15 offloads, 5 linebreaks, 5 linebreaks created.

I think that emphasizes pretty well how effective (or otherwise....) Luke Whitelock is with ball in hand compared to Luatua....

My god I've missed Darwin.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I think Whitelock has looked decent for Canterbury this year, but has hardly shone out. That being said, he's more deserving of an All Blacks slot now than he was a year ago...

 

[Larksea]

they are all only 22, they all have different strengths and weaknesses.

Luatua clearly has the running in the current pecking order and has done well with the chances hes been given.

Long term they will probably all get chances.

Of them Shields definitely has a dash of x-factor about him with his straight running game that could give him an edge in the future while he rounds out the rest of his game.

I dont think anyone can deny those observations.

For mine, Luke is obviously not that far down the pecking order, personally I can see why hes clearly in the fringe All Black category right now - making training camps and extended squads.

They are the next generation, much like Messam, Kaino, Vito and Thomson have battled for game time since Collins.

one thing is for sure, we shouldn't be talking about blindside flanker in a thread about weak positions for the All Blacks, or anything to do with loose forwards. Talk about spoilt for tallent!

 

[ABs2011]

. I haven't heard a lot about Jane lately, but I believe he was hoping to be back in time for the final rounds of the ITM Cup.

I think it's a bit early for Savea, especially given he hasn't been included in any of the training squads this year. Realistically, Cane and McCaw will be the 7's at the next World Cup, with a few other players able to back up (most probably Todd and Latimer), I can't really see there being any space for Savea.

Just a quick update on Jane (in case people missed the Wellington game). He cam on and played well for 20min or so against Auckalnd and looked as sharp as ever. He will be on the end of year tour.

This post is about Ardie Savea. Watched him absolutely dominate for Wellington v Auckland on Saturday! Very impressive (as was Brad Shields too)!

Listening to the radio today where both Peter Thorburn and Grant Nisbett both making strong cases for Savea to go on the EoY tour! The way he is playing (in combo with Todds injury) I think they should definitely be taking him!!

 

[Big Ewis]

oh hey...isn't this thread a total fkn waste of time at this point ??

I dunno, at least rename the thread "Least perfect position for the AB" or something, please, this is getting indecent...

P.S.: haven't followed the whole convo here...what is it basically, hooker I'm guessing ?

 

[Larksea]

so who drops out for Jane to go on tour?

Piutau? would be a shame for him to not go...

AB selection just seems to get harder and harder... I think Jane is going to find it hard to get back in, Ben Smith is white hot, Piutau has done everything asked of him and is a huge future prospect.

Conrad Smith is going to free up a spot, will that go to Jane or Crotty? some other midfielder?

 

[Larksea]

oh hey...isn't this thread a total fkn waste of time at this point ??

I dunno, at least rename the thread "Least perfect position for the AB" or something, please, this is getting indecent...

P.S.: haven't followed the whole convo here...what is it basically, hooker I'm guessing ?

yeah

hooker because Hore and Mealamu are old
Center because Conrad Smith is taking a break from rugby.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

so who drops out for Jane to go on tour?

Piutau? would be a shame for him to not go...

AB selection just seems to get harder and harder... I think Jane is going to find it hard to get back in, Ben Smith is white hot, Piutau has done everything asked of him and is a huge future prospect.

Conrad Smith is going to free up a spot, will that go to Jane or Crotty? some other midfielder?

36 squad members, so none of them...

 

[ABs2011]

so who drops out for Jane to go on tour?

Piutau? would be a shame for him to not go...

AB selection just seems to get harder and harder... I think Jane is going to find it hard to get back in, Ben Smith is white hot, Piutau has done everything asked of him and is a huge future prospect.

Conrad Smith is going to free up a spot, will that go to Jane or Crotty? some other midfielder?

No they will have a bigger squad for the EoY tour so will be able to include at least one more outside back (without having to drop anyone). I'd say they will take Savea, Dagg, Smith, Jane, Piutau, and Halai (where Smith may well play as much time in the centres as he does in the outside backs).

Yup Conrad will free up a spot. I personally would like to see them take Saili, Nonu, Crotty, and maybe even Emery (you would also have Tom Taylor and Ben Smith as centre cover).

 

[Larksea]

yeah, Aki & Ngatai would be worth considering as well.