Weakest position in the All Blacks squad

[dasNdanger]

So should we be talking about the benefits of developing more utility players? I know NZ has a good base to draw from, but as was pointed out a while back in another thread, that base is still limited compared to other countries based on the overall population of the country. Who are the best utility players in NZ, specifically on the ABs, but also amongst those who have yet to be capped.


das

 

[Kapa O Pango]

So should we be talking about the benefits of developing more utility players? I know NZ has a good base to draw from, but as was pointed out a while back in another thread, that base is still limited compared to other countries based on the overall population of the country. Who are the best utility players in NZ, specifically on the ABs, but also amongst those who have yet to be capped.


das

Mr. Versatile - Isaia Toeava.

Look at him now.

 

[dasNdanger]

Mr. Versatile - Isaia Toeava.

Look at him now.

That can happen to anyone, but it seems to especially happen to the young guys who burst out of the gate as the 'new big thing', regardless of their versatility. I think the only connection between versatility and early burnout is that ego and expectations get in the way.


das

 

[nickdnz]

Well, you first said:"Piatau never could play at centre". Now, you say: "Piatau can replace Conrad Smith".

And even you go further and say that when Benji Marshall plays in the Blues, many supporters suggest that Benji could play at fullback and Piatau could play at 13. Gradually we understand each.

20 minutes more of talk and you say that Piatau can play at 12






You say that players can't play in other positions and now Steve Hansen placed Messam at number 8 to lack of players, then Messam can play number 8, although he's a flanker.

Cheers

When did I say he never could play at centre...? I don't think he's adequate to play at centre for the All Blacks right now, not that I've ever said that before - but I certainly don't think he's a 12. For a start, he doesn't pass.

I didn't say a player couldn't play other positions either. Jerry Collins was an 8 who became my favourite blindside of all time. Cory Jane was a fullback who moved to wing etc etc, hundreds of examples of players moving to other positions and doing well, when they have the skillset to play there.

Luatua does not have the skillset of an openside and it would be pretty ridiculous to play him there, or Piatau at 12 unless absolutely necessary.

 

[Gena_ZA]

The weakest spot is the average age, too many old timers, gona be hauled in soon by other sides like the Boks

 

[Peat]

That can happen to anyone, but it seems to especially happen to the young guys who burst out of the gate as the 'new big thing', regardless of their versatility. I think the only connection between versatility and early burnout is that ego and expectations get in the way.


das

There are plenty of examples from around the globe of versatility being as much a hindrance as a blessing in rugby - probably more.

The issue with being a utility player is that it rarely gives players the best platform on which to show their talent. For a rugby player to really shine, they must be consistent. Everyone has moments where they look a class above, it is about doing those things consistently, and doing the simple things consistently, and avoiding mistakes consistently. To no small extent, consistency comes from doing the same things over and over. If a player is changing positions frequently, they are no longer able to do that. Their ability to hit peak performance is compromised.

This can often effect confidence as well, particularly if they're not getting selected. Players can get frustrated. Players will eagerly embrace being a utility player if that gives them an in to the team that a specialist can't get, but most players want to then proceed to settle in one position. It means there are less things they have to do to get their peak performance. Rugby is getting increasingly more specialist, which means that every position comes with more base requirements you're not really getting in other positions. That is truer for some positions than others but I feel even the easiest positional change on the pitch - lock to blindside - has a few issues.

Obviously, some players adapt better, and utility players continue to be a really valuable commodity, but it ain't particularly good being one.

 

[shaun12]

The weakest spot is the average age, too many old timers, gona be hauled in soon by other sides like the Boks

All Blacks vs South Africa, Saturday 14th September 2013 (http://www.irb.com/mm/document/newsmedia/mediazone/02/06/87/85/20131209nzvsa.pdf)

Average age of All Blacks (including reserves): 25.8
Average age of South Africa (including reserves): 27.0

If Carter and McCaw had not been injured it would have brought the average age of the AB's up to 27.0 - exactly the same as South Africa! I think it the aging nature of the AB's was an issue after the 2011 World Cup, but Hansen has introduced a raft of young players over the last two seasons (Retallick, Cane, Kerr-Barlow, Barrett, Saili, Piutau to name but a few). There are still a couple of older players around who are approaching there used by date. Hore & Mealamu are the obvious two - although Woodcock, McCaw, Carter, Nonu and Smith are now all in there early 30's they should still have a couple of good years of rugby left in them.

To answer the initial question: hooker, lock, and 12/13 are the obvious areas where the AB's lack depth. For me the midfield is the major concern. There is no obvious replacement for Nonu unless SBW returns (though Saili could develop into a test quality midfielder, but still needs to do a lot of work on his defense / decision making). Likewise at centre there is no obvious replacement for Conrad Smith. Ben Smith could potentially be a top class test centre but would need a lot more experience in the 13 jersey (Tamati Ellison would have been a good option had he not signed to play in Japan).

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Well, let's have a look at the state of NZ rugby, position by position... Gives us a bit more to discuss!

Hookers
Current All Blacks - Andrew Hore, Keven Mealamu, Dane Coles
Up and Comers - Liam Coltman, Rhys Marshall, Nathan Harris, Ben Funnell

The major situation at hooker is not that we don't have to good players waiting in the wings, but that these players aren't getting much game time at Super Rugby level. Coltman has been stuck behind Hore, but with Hore's presumed retirement come the end of the season it looks like Coltman will be starting week after week next year. Almost certainly he will be on the All Black's end of year tour. Marshall is stuck behind Mo Schwalger and Elliot at the Chiefs, but given Schwalger's ongoing injuries he may get more game time next year. Harris was brought into the All Blacks training squad recently, somewhat surprisingly. It appears he is ahead of Canterbury's duo of Funnell and Codie Taylor, as well as James Parsons and Quentin MacDonald of the Blues. Hika Elliot and Corey Flynn have also fallen behind, though are able back ups should injury strike suddenly. Harris doesn't have a team for next year's Super Rugby, and could find a home at the Highlanders (the only NZ squad so far lacking three hookers). I don't personally see Coles as a long term option, but he could well prove me wrong.

Props
Current All Blacks - Tony Woodcock, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Owen Franks, Charlie Faumuina
Up and Comers - Joe Moody, Ben Afeaki, Ben Tameifuna, Jeffrey Toomaga-Allen

Prop is not an area of concern, by a long stretch. Woodcock only has a few years left in him, but Crockett has been good value this year, as has Ben Franks. Moody has been called into the squad recently, and is seen as the next best loosehead behind the others already mentioned. At tight head it's unlikely anyone else will get a shot, given how highly viewed Owen Franks and Faumuina are. Afeaki is a similar player to Faumuina and Toomaga-Allen was industrious in this year's Super Rugby. Tameifuna probably has the most raw talent of all the props in NZ and has many deft skills, if only he had as many brain cells as he has excess KG's he would be an international super star.

Locks
Current All Blacks - Brodie Retalick, Luke Romano, Sam Whitelock, Jeremy Thrush
Up and Comers - Dominic Bird, Matt Symons, Patrick Tuipulotu

Whilst we're a bit short of depth at lock, Retalick and Whitelock are world class, whilst Romano would make most international starting line ups. I think most people would agree Thrush is in the squad due to that lack of depth (and an injury to Bird), and Luatua is favoured ahead of him as a lock replacement anyway. Bird is very promising, and is taller than our current locks. Symons is a bit shorter, but seems to be a good tactician, calling the lineouts for Canterbury this season and captaining the second XV of the Crusaders this year. He has the added benefit of having signed for the Chiefs for 2014, who in the past few years have churned out a number of All Blacks and don't have as much depth at lock as the Crusaders, so Symons will get a few starts, at least. That being said, he won't be eligible for the All Blacks for at least another couple of years. Meanwhile the Blues have locked in U20 lock Tuipolotu who will likely get plenty of game time next season.

Loose Forwards
Current All Blacks - Liam Messam, Steven Luatua, Richie McCaw, Sam Cane, Kieran Read
Up and Comers - Brad Shields, Matt Todd, Luke Whitelock, Ardie Savea, Luke Braid

Our loose forwards are well stocked. Luatua has shown he can play international rugby this year, and behind him are a host of likely All Blacks. Todd likely won't get any more caps any time soon, with McCaw and Cane ahead of him (indeed Cane will do well to get more than one or two more starts this year), but Whitelock and possibly Shields are likely to be taken on the end of year tour. Whitelock can cover flanker and number eight, whilst Shields is a number six who can cover lock well enough. Victor Vito and Tanerau Latimer are great, more experienced emergency call ups. As always, loose forwards are a strength for the All Blacks, and we don't have an obvious weakness at openside flanker any more.

Halfbacks
Current All Blacks - Aaron Smith, Tawera Kerr-Barlow
Up and Comers - TJ Perenara, Augustine Pulu

We have a great triumvirate of halfbacks at the moment, with Smith, Kerr-Barlow and Perenara all highly promising. TKB and Perenara are yet to start a match, and will fight it out for that bench spot on the end of year tour. The selectors have indicated that Pulu is the next in line, with Weepu and Ellis experienced back ups.

First Five
Current All Blacks - Daniel Carter, Aaron Cruden, Beauden Barrett
Up and Comers - Tom Taylor, Colin Slade

First five is even more stocked than halfback, with the only concern being Carter's frailty and a lack of continuous game time at the top level for his reserves. Cruden and Barrett have shown themselves to be strong performers, however. Taylor was great in his cap earlier this year (to be honest he probably had the best debut for an NZ first five in a long time) and Slade has been in the squad before whilst still being young. Guys like Anscombe are not far behind in the pecking order either.

Midfield
Current All Blacks - Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith
Up and Comers - Francis Saili, Jason Emery

Midfield does not have a huge amount of depth, and stocks would be vastly improved if a few overseas players were to return prior to the World Cup (namely Sonny Bill Williams and Richard Kahui). Francis Saili will be a long term All Black, and will get more game time on the end of year tour, whilst Emery stood out in a bad year for the Highlanders. Nonu will likely miss some tests early next year, whilst Smith will take a sabbatical after the Rugby Championship concludes. This will give good game time to Saili and Ben Smith, which will be invaluable. Midfield is not concerning right now, but it will be if Saili and Smith don't perform later this year. Crotty earned his first cap earlier this year, but like Thrush is probably not viewed as a long term fixture in the squad.

Outside backs
Current All Blacks - Julian Savea, Ben Smith, Israel Dagg, Charles Piutau
Up and Comers - Frank Halai, Tim Nanai-Williams, Johnny McNicholl

The All Blacks always have a number of great players waiting in the wings to earn a place as one of the outside backs in the squad. With Jane returning from injury soon, and the fantastic performances of the starters this season, I think we're in as good a position as we've even been.

Taking all this into consideration, a likely 36 man squad would consist of:
Hooker (3) - Mealamu, Coles, Coltman
Prop (5) - Woodcock, Crockett, Franks, Franks, Faumuina
Lock (5) - Romano, Retalick, Whitelock, Thrush, Bird
Loose Forward (6) - Messam, Luatua, Shields, McCaw, Cane, Read, Whitelock
Halfback (3) - A Smith, Kerr-Barlow, Perenara
First Five (4) - Carter, Cruden, Barrett, Taylor
Midfield (3) - Saili, Nonu, B Smith
Outside Back (6) - Savea, Dagg, Jane, Piutau, McNicholl, Halai

With other possibilities being either Marshall or Harris instead of Thrush or Shields, or another prop in place of one of the same two players.

 

[ABs2011]

What would happen if in the next game, Cruden and Nonu are injured after 10 minutes of play and both leave the field?

Look at the bench:

16.Dane Coles 17.Wyatt Crockett, 18.Ben Franks, 19.Jeremy Thrush, 20.Steven Luatua, 21.Tawera Kerr-Barlow, 22.Beauden Barrett, 23.Charles Piutau.

Who would take the place of Cruden? and who would take the place of Nonu? You only have 3 backs on the bench.

I think Steve Hansen thinks like me. Piutau could play at 12.


Cheers

Where's Conrad Smith gone? Conspicuously absent after the Piutau at 12 debate was resolved over the weekend

Can we put the matter to rest for now mate?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Where's Conrad Smith gone? Conspicuously absent after the Piutau at 12 debate was resolved over the weekend

Can we put the matter to rest for now mate?

Well he did​ come on as a sub for Nonu

 

[james5000]

Well, let's have a look at the state of NZ rugby, position by position... Gives us a bit more to discuss!

Hookers
Current All Blacks - Andrew Hore, Keven Mealamu, Dane Coles
Up and Comers - Liam Coltman, Rhys Marshall, Nathan Harris, Ben Funnell

The major situation at hooker is not that we don't have to good players waiting in the wings, but that these players aren't getting much game time at Super Rugby level. Coltman has been stuck behind Hore, but with Hore's presumed retirement come the end of the season it looks like Coltman will be starting week after week next year. Almost certainly he will be on the All Black's end of year tour. Marshall is stuck behind Mo Schwalger and Elliot at the Chiefs, but given Schwalger's ongoing injuries he may get more game time next year. Harris was brought into the All Blacks training squad recently, somewhat surprisingly. It appears he is ahead of Canterbury's duo of Funnell and Codie Taylor, as well as James Parsons and Quentin MacDonald of the Blues. Hika Elliot and Corey Flynn have also fallen behind, though are able back ups should injury strike suddenly. Harris doesn't have a team for next year's Super Rugby, and could find a home at the Highlanders (the only NZ squad so far lacking three hookers). I don't personally see Coles as a long term option, but he could well prove me wrong.

Props
Current All Blacks - Tony Woodcock, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Owen Franks, Charlie Faumuina
Up and Comers - Joe Moody, Ben Afeaki, Ben Tameifuna, Jeffrey Toomaga-Allen

Prop is not an area of concern, by a long stretch. Woodcock only has a few years left in him, but Crockett has been good value this year, as has Ben Franks. Moody has been called into the squad recently, and is seen as the next best loosehead behind the others already mentioned. At tight head it's unlikely anyone else will get a shot, given how highly viewed Owen Franks and Faumuina are. Afeaki is a similar player to Faumuina and Toomaga-Allen was industrious in this year's Super Rugby. Tameifuna probably has the most raw talent of all the props in NZ and has many deft skills, if only he had as many brain cells as he has excess KG's he would be an international super star.

Locks
Current All Blacks - Brodie Retalick, Luke Romano, Sam Whitelock, Jeremy Thrush
Up and Comers - Dominic Bird, Matt Symons

Whilst we're a bit short of depth at lock, Retalick and Whitelock are world class, whilst Romano would make most international starting line ups. I think most people would agree Thrush is in the squad due to that lack of depth (and an injury to Bird), and Luatua is favoured ahead of him as a lock replacement anyway. Bird is very promising, and is taller than our current locks. Symons is a bit shorter, but seems to be a good tactician, calling the lineouts for Canterbury this season and captaining the second XV of the Crusaders this year. He has the added benefit of having signed for the Chiefs for 2014, who in the past few years have churned out a number of All Blacks and don't have as much depth at lock as the Crusaders, so Symons will get a few starts, at least.

Loose Forwards
Current All Blacks - Liam Messam, Steven Luatua, Richie McCaw, Sam Cane, Kieran Read
Up and Comers - Brad Shields, Matt Todd, Luke Whitelock

Our loose forwards are well stocked. Luatua has shown he can play international rugby this year, and behind him are a host of likely All Blacks. Todd likely won't get any more caps any time soon, with McCaw and Cane ahead of him (indeed Cane will do well to get more than one or two more starts this year), but Whitelock and possibly Shields are likely to be taken on the end of year tour. Whitelock can cover flanker and number eight, whilst Shields is a number six who can cover lock well enough. Victor Vito and Tanerau Latimer are great, more experienced emergency call ups. As always, loose forwards are a strength for the All Blacks, and we don't have an obvious weakness at openside flanker any more.

Halfbacks
Current All Blacks - Aaron Smith, Tawera Kerr-Barlow
Up and Comers - TJ Perenara, Augustine Pulu

We have a great triumvirate of halfbacks at the moment, with Smith, Kerr-Barlow and Perenara all highly promising. TKB and Perenara are yet to start a match, and will fight it out for that bench spot on the end of year tour. The selectors have indicated that Pulu is the next in line, with Weepu and Ellis experienced back ups.

First Five
Current All Blacks - Daniel Carter, Aaron Cruden, Beauden Barrett
Up and Comers - Tom Taylor, Colin Slade

First five is even more stocked than halfback, with the only concern being Carter's frailty and a lack of continuous game time at the top level for his reserves. Cruden and Barrett have shown themselves to be strong performers, however. Taylor was great in his cap earlier this year (to be honest he probably had the best debut for an NZ first five in a long time) and Slade has been in the squad before whilst still being young. Guys like Anscombe are not far behind in the pecking order either.

Midfield
Current All Blacks - Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith
Up and Comers - Francis Saili, Jason Emery

Midfield does not have a huge amount of depth, and stocks would be vastly improved if a few overseas players were to return prior to the World Cup (namely Sonny Bill Williams and Richard Kahui). Francis Saili will be a long term All Black, and will get more game time on the end of year tour, whilst Emery stood out in a bad year for the Highlanders. Nonu will likely miss some tests early next year, whilst Smith will take a sabbatical after the Rugby Championship concludes. This will give good game time to Saili and Ben Smith, which will be invaluable. Midfield is not concerning right now, but it will be if Saili and Smith don't perform later this year. Crotty earned his first cap earlier this year, but like Thrush is probably not viewed as a long term fixture in the squad.

Outside backs
Current All Blacks - Julian Savea, Ben Smith, Israel Dagg, Charles Piutau
Up and Comers - Frank Halai, Tim Nanai-Williams, Johnny McNicholl

The All Blacks always have a number of great players waiting in the wings to earn a place as one of the outside backs in the squad. With Jane returning from injury soon, and the fantastic performances of the starters this season, I think we're in as good a position as we've even been.

Taking all this into consideration, a likely 36 man squad would consist of:
Hooker (3) - Mealamu, Coles, Coltman
Prop (5) - Woodcock, Crockett, Franks, Franks, Faumuina
Lock (5) - Romano, Retalick, Whitelock, Thrush, Bird
Loose Forward (6) - Messam, Luatua, Shields, McCaw, Cane, Read, Whitelock
Halfback (3) - A Smith, Kerr-Barlow, Perenara
First Five (4) - Carter, Cruden, Barrett, Taylor
Midfield (3) - Saili, Nonu, B Smith
Outside Back (6) - Savea, Dagg, Jane, Piutau, McNicholl, Halai

With other possibilities being either Marshall or Harris instead of Thrush or Shields, or another prop in place of one of the same two players.

That was a really good review mate, still confuses me why a kiwi would use the handle invictus haha?

With the form he's in at Counties I really hope Stowers gets atleast a look in before McNicholl.

 

[ABs2011]

That was a really good review mate, still confuses me why a kiwi would use the handle invictus haha?

With the form he's in at Counties I really hope Stowers gets atleast a look in before McNicholl.

Yup really good write up.

I agree with much of what you say. I feel like I haven't watched enough of the ITM cup to be able to add much but I'm just gonna throw a few more names out there:

Wouldn't be surprised if they look at Ardie Savea if Todd is out for as long as they say he will be (which is going into the EOY tour). From what I have seen of Ardie he has stepped up another level this season and is clearly a future option at 7. Might be good to see him on the tour. On the other hand it may be too soon, however if he is a legitimate option for 2015 then may as well get him in early.

I think Crotty will be a shoe in for the tour. He has been playing 12 and 13 for Canterbury so given the way you have things laid out, with only 2 specialist centres (although you do have Taylor their as cover), I'd say he will certainly get the nod. I'd leave out McNicholl to make room for him. Jason Emery could be another good young option to take away as well, or even Charlie Ngatai.

At hooker I wonder if Elliot has done enough to get a look in? I'm not sure how deep his attitude problems run, but IMO his form makes him one of the top couple options outside of the guys they already have in the squad.

Oh and the only other thing is Matt Symons (lock) is English isn't he? Not sure he is eligible for the ABs (but I could be wrong).

 

[Jaguares]

Hooker (3) - Mealamu, Coles, Coltman
Prop (5) - Woodcock, Crockett, Franks, Franks, Faumuina
Lock (5) - Romano, Retalick, Whitelock, Thrush, Bird
Loose Forward (6) - Messam, Luatua, Shields, McCaw, Cane, Read, Whitelock
Halfback (3) - A Smith, Kerr-Barlow, Perenara
First Five (4) - Carter, Cruden, Barrett, Taylor
Midfield (3) - Saili, Nonu, B Smith
Outside Back (6) - Savea, Dagg, Jane, Piutau, McNicholl, Halai

You forgot Conrad Smith and Matt Todd.

Cheers

 

[ABs2011]

You forgot Conrad Smith and Matt Todd.

Cheers

Don't think you read his post very carefully. Conrad Smith will take a sabbatical after the RC and Invictus says that he doesn't believe Todd will go on the EOY tour. Todd is also injured and it is thought he wont be ready anyway.

Piutau at 12 then Conrad?

 

[Jaguares]

Don't think you read his post very carefully. Conrad Smith will take a sabbatical after the RC and Invictus says that he doesn't believe Todd will go on the EOY tour. Todd is also injured and it is thought he wont be ready anyway.

Piutau at 12 then Conrad?

Todd is injured but Cory Jane too, and he's on his list. I still think that way, Piutau could play at 12 or 13 if necessary.

Cheers

 

[ABs2011]

Todd is injured but Cory Jane too, and he's on his list. I still think that way, Piutau could play at 12 or 13 if necessary.

Cheers

In terms of injuries there is an obvious difference if you are keeping up to date with the respective players status:
Jane is back training (and reportedly not far a away from a Lions return).
Todd is out and almost certain to be fit for the tour.

Just so you understand, the point that people were having you up on in the Piutau at 12 debate was when you implied that Piutau would cover at 12 should both Nonu and Cruden go off because he was one of only 3 back reserves. You seemed to think that because Hansen had his bench made up in such a way, Hansen also agreed with you that Piutau was the logical 12 cover.

At least two of us tried to explain to you that the most likely scenario should Nonu and Cruden go off was that the more senior player, the more versatile player, and the player with more experience in the centers (Ben Smith) would be the one to shift positions to cover the gap left by Nonu...

As it happened that is EXACTLY what transpired. You did note that Smith moved to 12 and Piutau slotted in at his usual full back role right?

Anyway, you seem to largely ignore those that are trying to explain the game to you a bit more, so I feel like I'm flogging a dead horse! Hopefully you've taken something on board?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Todd is injured but Cory Jane too, and he's on his list. I still think that way, Piutau could play at 12 or 13 if necessary.

Cheers

Todd will be out until next year, he might not be back in time for the start of the season. I haven't heard a lot about Jane lately, but I believe he was hoping to be back in time for the final rounds of the ITM Cup. Conrad Smith is taking a sabbatical.

Edit: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/sport/lions/9223735/Janes-return-hinges-on-chat-with-Boyd

Jane will play this Saturday.

Yup really good write up.

I agree with much of what you say. I feel like I haven't watched enough of the ITM cup to be able to add much but I'm just gonna throw a few more names out there:

Wouldn't be surprised if they look at Ardie Savea if Todd is out for as long as they say he will be (which is going into the EOY tour). From what I have seen of Ardie he has stepped up another level this season and is clearly a future option at 7. Might be good to see him on the tour. On the other hand it may be too soon, however if he is a legitimate option for 2015 then may as well get him in early.

I think Crotty will be a shoe in for the tour. He has been playing 12 and 13 for Canterbury so given the way you have things laid out, with only 2 specialist centres (although you do have Taylor their as cover), I'd say he will certainly get the nod. I'd leave out McNicholl to make room for him. Jason Emery could be another good young option to take away as well, or even Charlie Ngatai.

At hooker I wonder if Elliot has done enough to get a look in? I'm not sure how deep his attitude problems run, but IMO his form makes him one of the top couple options outside of the guys they already have in the squad.

Oh and the only other thing is Matt Symons (lock) is English isn't he? Not sure he is eligible for the ABs (but I could be wrong).

I think it's a bit early for Savea, especially given he hasn't been included in any of the training squads this year. Realistically, Cane and McCaw will be the 7's at the next World Cup, with a few other players able to back up (most probably Todd and Latimer), I can't really see there being any space for Savea.

I've included Taylor as a 10 but realistically I think we'll see him at 12 if he gets any game on the tour. Saili has been playing a bit at 13, which is good for his development (as his defensive lines have very much suffered when switched out a position in the past). Emery is in a similar position to Savea, I think. Give him a full season at Super Rugby and see how he goes. Admittedly I haven't been that picky with McNicholl, but I think it's a bit different for outside backs. Crotty may very well tour, but I wouldn't have him going along, personally. He isn't a long term option, and between Nonu, Saili and Smith I think we'll have the positions covered well enough.

Elliot has done his dash, in my opinion. The fact that his own province didn't want him is saying something. His lineout throwing has been awful during the ITM Cup and I don't think the rest of his play makes up for it (and his attitude issues certainly won't help).

Yeah, Symons isn't qualified yet, I thought he had been in NZ a bit longer than he had and would only have another year to go or so. Wonder if he has any Kiwi grandparents... It doesn't often turn out that way though, always in reverse Damn colony...

I think a possibly 23 for the match against Japan could be:
1 Crockett
2 Coltman
3 Faumuina
4 Romano
5 Thrush
6 Luatua
7 Cane
8 Whitelock
9 Kerr-Barlow
10 Cruden (c)
11 Savea
12 Taylor
13 Saili
14 Jane
15 Piutau

16 Coles
17 Franks
18 Franks
19 Bird
20 Messam
21 Perenara
22 Smith
23 McNicholl

It will actually be very interesting to see who captains the team against Japan. It's likely Mealamu, McCaw and Read won't be in the squad, along with other experienced guys like Woodcock. The only real possible candidates would be Messam and Cruden...

 

[Larksea]

been a lot of jibes at the AB team being "Old" but the reality is if you have another look its actually quite a young side now. A number of players have been introduced and have racked up a lot of tests and are still young. Lots of new blood has been introduced slowly over the last 2 years. I mean look at halfback. 2011 the top three halfbacks were Piri, Cowan and Elis - now its smith, TKB and TJP

Look at Sam Whitelock, Israel Dagg and Owen Franks for example. All young and have gone about their business and racked up 30-40 odd tests caps, Retalick, Aaron Smith and Savea are well on the way and unlike back in 2007-2011 the AB's dont lose much when Dan and Richie are missing.

the only position of Genuine concern is Hooker, as it has been for a long time.

In a pinch carter can play 12 Saili looks a genuine long term prospect, nonu or Ben Smith can cover 13 and Crotty is a safe option if needed. Also the impending return of SBW.

Then Loosehead Prop, Crockett is looking ok, Ben Franks can do the job if needed. so its kinda covered if woody goes down.

All Blacks old boys club is:
Woody
McCaw
Conrad
Nonu
Hore/Mealamu

not much really, could almost say the squad is very,,,, actually extremely well balanced.

 

[ABs2011]

I think it's a bit early for Savea, especially given he hasn't been included in any of the training squads this year. Realistically, Cane and McCaw will be the 7's at the next World Cup, with a few other players able to back up (most probably Todd and Latimer), I can't really see there being any space for Savea.

I've included Taylor as a 10 but realistically I think we'll see him at 12 if he gets any game on the tour. Saili has been playing a bit at 13, which is good for his development (as his defensive lines have very much suffered when switched out a position in the past). Emery is in a similar position to Savea, I think. Give him a full season at Super Rugby and see how he goes. Admittedly I haven't been that picky with McNicholl, but I think it's a bit different for outside backs. Crotty may very well tour, but I wouldn't have him going along, personally. He isn't a long term option, and between Nonu, Saili and Smith I think we'll have the positions covered well enough.

Elliot has done his dash, in my opinion. The fact that his own province didn't want him is saying something. His lineout throwing has been awful during the ITM Cup and I don't think the rest of his play makes up for it (and his attitude issues certainly won't help).

Yeah, Symons isn't qualified yet, I thought he had been in NZ a bit longer than he had and would only have another year to go or so. Wonder if he has any Kiwi grandparents... It doesn't often turn out that way though, always in reverse Damn colony...

I think a possibly 23 for the match against Japan could be:
1 Crockett
2 Coltman
3 Faumuina
4 Romano
5 Thrush
6 Luatua
7 Cane
8 Whitelock
9 Kerr-Barlow
10 Cruden (c)
11 Savea
12 Taylor
13 Saili
14 Jane
15 Piutau

16 Coles
17 Franks
18 Franks
19 Bird
20 Messam
21 Perenara
22 Smith
23 McNicholl

It will actually be very interesting to see who captains the team against Japan. It's likely Mealamu, McCaw and Read won't be in the squad, along with other experienced guys like Woodcock. The only real possible candidates would be Messam and Cruden...

Will have to agree to disagree on Crotty. He is only 25 and I think he is improving. Add to that Centres tend to bloom late, then I think Crotty is a seriously good option for the ABs moving forward.

You are probably right re Hika Elliot I havent followed him carefuly enough. The reason I bring him up is I have tried to check out Coltman, Harris, Marshall etc and none of them jump out at me. I'm at the same time wondering whether Mealamu is actually a serious contender for RWC 2015? If not then we could do with a bit more experience. If Hika's attitude is still an issue though then forget him.

Again, re Ardie Savea, you are likely right as well (too young), ALTHOUGH, we are a little thin at 7 and I feel he is the next best thing going round. IF the AB selectors are at all interested in him for 2015 then I'd like to see him go on tour. BIG if though!

Re the Japan match, I would go with:
1 Crockett
2 Coltman
3 Faumuina
4 Romano
5 Thrush
6 Luatua
7 Ardie Savea
8 L Whitelock
9 Kerr-Barlow
10 Barrett
11 Jane
12 Saili
13 Crotty
14 Halai
15 Piutau

16 Coles
17 Afeaki
18 Franks
19 Bird
20 Messam
21 Perenara
22 Taylor
23 B Smith

 

[donmcdazzle]

Why do people rate Luke Whitelock? He underwhelms me everytime I see him play. I've watched a lot of ITM cup and he definitely doesn't stand out above the rest of the number 8's going round.