Wasps player exodus to France?

[Stillknox]

Benjamin Keyser is back to Paris too. How was he at Leicester ? I always tough he was better (or at least more consistant) than Szarzewski.

Paris also wants Julien Dupuy (you know, the guy who's playing instead the England N°9 at Leicester ^_^ ) but I don't think he will be out of contract in june.

 

[Cymro]

Man this is a well and truly a good exodus of players ...

Ill get the popcorn!

 

[toxicfiend]

So players can leave in the middle of the season and just leave there contracts? At least it shows where their loyalties lie

 

[dullonien]

I'm sure they won't be goin anywhere before the end of the season, when their contracts expire!

 

[Flyin Ryan]

With all due respect to any Englishmen that are offended, this statement:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

"In financial terms we are no longer on a level playing field," said Wasps executive chairman Mark Rigby.

"It does raise great concern that French clubs can now blow the English clubs away when it comes to salaries.

"There is a wider concern that the development of English rugby players will only be hampered as they move away from the Premiership, which stands as the best domestic league in the northern hemisphere, and regular head-to-head competition."[/b]

is complete and utter bullcrap. England - in all three of its major team sports: football, rugby, and cricket - has bought the best players off of other countries and brought them in for a long time, using the fact that they had more money than everyone else as the justification. Now in cricket England is secondary to India, most likely permanently, and in rugby the falling pound has made England secondary to France, most likely temporarily, and all of a sudden these team executives start thinking this system that they have been profiting from for years and years is unfair the second they realized they were no longer top dog? Bullcrap.

 

[Steve-o]

Good post Flyin Ryan!

BTW how is it that the French can spend like this especially in the current economic climate? Were they not it so hard by the recession or what?

 

[SaintsFan_Schweinsteiger_Webby]

I don't think it's the fact that players are moving to France that executives are complaining about (although they obviously aren't thrilled), it's that the Premiership's salary cap limits the extent to which they can compete with those clubs across the channel who don't have the same restrictions.

 

[Stillknox]

Hard to explain that. In soccer, all the international french players are leaving for England, Spain or Italy. We're not able to recruit stars too, because the salaries are two low and the fiscal policy unattractive. Why this is the opposite in Rugby ? I have a few clues but I prefer to let the true specialist talk.

 

[Flyin Ryan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SaintsFan_Schweinsteiger_Webby @ Feb 17 2009, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I don't think it's the fact that players are moving to France that executives are complaining about (although they obviously aren't thrilled), it's that the Premiership's salary cap limits the extent to which they can compete with those clubs across the channel who don't have the same restrictions.[/b]

First off, it looks stupid in light of what they said two months ago, which gives the impression that some clubs can't tell their head from their ass. Either compete with the French and risk some bankruptcies or accept the French will pay more money and you'll lose your top players. You can't do both.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/16122008/4/p...-reduction.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Premier Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty confirmed a reduction in the salary cap will be discussed in January in a bid to combat the financial crisis which threatens to engulf Bristol and Newcastle.Bristol, currently bottom of the Guinness Premiership, are already operating at a £1million annual loss and last month issued an urgent appeal for new investment to simply "remain competitive".

The club's chief executive Steve Gorvett predicted Premiership clubs will lose a total of between £12million and £20million this season as a result of the economic downturn.

Bristol's playing budget is £1million under the current salary cap, which was increased at the start of this season despite their opposition.

The proposal to reduce the ceiling for the 2009-10 season from £4million to £3.5million would require a 75% majority vote from the clubs.

McCafferty admitted the move may not help English clubs compete with the big-spending French on the European stage - but he insisted the priority must be to keep their own house in order.

The challenge, he explained, is to ensure English club rugby remains afloat until the new £54million television deal kicks in ahead of the 2010-11 season.

"Twelve months ago it looked a good decision but now the world has changed and we are reviewing the level of the salary cap for 2009-10," said McCafferty.[/b]

Did Wasps vote in favor of the solution earlier this year to freeze the cap?

And per this article anyway: http://uk.reuters.com/article/rugbyNews/idUKLF29085220090115 , Wasps didn't even make money last year. So really the salary cap for their current business model is too high. Teams are losing money and they're complaining they can't retain players and need to pay them more so they could lose more money? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[QLD]

Why the **** is everyone leaving Wasps?

 

[Fa'atau82]

I think they are just following the money. Just like Carter, Collins and the rest. French clubs are spending a vast amount of money to sign the leading players in World Rugby. It is irresponsible in this current financial climate to just wave cash at players. Look at Toulon. They have internationals all over the place, yet they play like the local 3rd XV.

Stade Francais don't even need Haskell, and Palmer won't really make much of a dent there either. CA Brive is turning into Old Premiershiponians XV. The only club who don't really spend out is Toulouse, and perhaps Clermont. They produce there own players generally and sign young french players.

Yeah sure, go abroad but i think we will see an even worse England team if this happens. I mean Flutey, who has got his residency should be here. This is where he settled.

I'm not sure how Flutey is affected by his limited leave to remain/UK citizenship. You have to stay here and not leave for long periods, or you may be asked to revoke your citizenship. Not sure how it affects sports people.

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (getofmeland @ Feb 17 2009, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Just be confirmed that Haskell, Palmer and Fluety are all off to France

Haskell and Palmer to Stade Francais And Fluety to Brive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_unio...sps/7893734.stm

What does this mean to English Rugby? Is the credit crunch hitting the clubs that bad?[/b]

more likely the salary cap.

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Feb 18 2009, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think they are just following the money. Just like Carter, Collins and the rest. French clubs are spending a vast amount of money to sign the leading players in World Rugby. It is irresponsible in this current financial climate to just wave cash at players. Look at Toulon. They have internationals all over the place, yet they play like the local 3rd XV.

Stade Francais don't even need Haskell, and Palmer won't really make much of a dent there either. CA Brive is turning into Old Premiershiponians XV. The only club who don't really spend out is Toulouse, and perhaps Clermont. They produce there own players generally and sign young french players.

Yeah sure, go abroad but i think we will see an even worse England team if this happens. I mean Flutey, who has got his residency should be here. This is where he settled.

I'm not sure how Flutey is affected by his limited leave to remain/UK citizenship. You have to stay here and not leave for long periods, or you may be asked to revoke your citizenship. Not sure how it affects sports people.[/b]

I would assume once anyone gets citizenship they're entitled to the full rights therein not some watered down version, why would you even go for it in the first place if that was the case? Being a sportsman shouldn't even be an issue in this.

 

[Flyin Ryan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Feb 18 2009, 05:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (getofmeland @ Feb 17 2009, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just be confirmed that Haskell, Palmer and Fluety are all off to France

Haskell and Palmer to Stade Francais And Fluety to Brive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_unio...sps/7893734.stm

What does this mean to English Rugby? Is the credit crunch hitting the clubs that bad?[/b]

more likely the salary cap.
[/b][/quote]

So remove the salary cap, what clubs would go bankrupt?

Or put another way, who are the haves and who are the clubs that the haves you know will beat by 40 points every time as those clubs are constrained by the necessity to keep a positive cash flow otherwise they disappear due to a dumb business model?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Wasps didn't even make money last year. So really the salary cap for their current business model is too high. Teams are losing money and they're complaining they can't retain players and need to pay them more so they could lose more money? That doesn't make a lot of sense.[/b]

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dale @ Feb 18 2009, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Why the **** is everyone leaving Wasps?[/b]

Well, put yourself in James Haskell's shoes:

You're 23 years old, and still learning your craft.

You've played a big part in a side that has won the Heineken Cup and the Guinness Premiership.

You're starting to make your name as an England player (and he's been our best player in the 6 Nations so far).

You've spent 5 years earning money in/ around the greatest city in the world.

Now, you've got an offer from a club which:

Plays in a highly competitive and exciting league overseas, with the chance to add new aspects to your game, learn about mass brawls and gouging and whatever else the French do...

Still competes in the Heineken Cup and should be a contender for a Top 14 ***le = chance of silverware.

Is situated in another of the world's greatest cities, with a chance for a new lifestyle, language etc. for a few years.

Is willing to pay you a lot of money.

If I was Haskell I'd spend 2 seasons at Stade, then I'd go play in the SA/ NZ for a year, and then come back to England; he'd be 26/7 and in his prime, he would have learnt different views of rugby and would be a thouroughly rounded player for it. Didn't do Martin Johnson any harm playing in NZ as a youth.

Palmer is in the same position; he can come back wealthier, both in terms of experience and cash...

Flutey is the dodgy one. Because he's already made a major career move - going to England. Now he's English and all of a sudden he's f***ed off to France - not only that, but to a distinctly average French team and to play outside Andy Goode, which is not my idea of fun. And he's gone to a minor little town in the South of France which is probably stuffed full of 2nd home Brits anyway. At least go to Biarritz or Montpellier so you can get some beach time!

 

[dundeesmiffy]

I agree with ginge.

However, if this affects either player's international prospects I will kill Martin Johnstone.
Flutey should be taken from the elite player squad at least however, mainly because he qualified for England through residency, that should be a condition of that in my opinion.

I don't agree that every player should be able to play for a country if he lives there for long enough, the way I see it, he played for the NZ Maori, a professional that represents a people of his home country team, I think having had played representative rugby...he should be available for NZ and only NZ, regardless of where he lives.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

So who will Wasps bring in to replace the departing/departed players?

Ibanez will be a loss but Rob Webber and Joe Ward can cover his loss satisfactorily. Replacing Palmer won't be a problem with Shaw, Skivington and Birkett a strong unit. Haskell will be missed but in Dan Leo, Tom Rees, Serge Betsen, Joe Worsley and Hugo Ellis they have talented players in the backrow. I could see them making a run for a backup number 8 to boost their numbers. Flutey will be a big loss because the Wasps midfield cupboard is so bare. What other centres do they have besides Dominic Waldouck? Josh Lewsey maybe but he's a far better back 3 player in my opinion. I know that they were linked with Waylon Murray a couple of months ago - given the lack of centre options at Adams Park next year, he'd be a very useful addition.

 

[Vambo]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snoopy snoopy dog dog @ Feb 18 2009, 07:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

So who will Wasps bring in to replace the departing/departed players?

Ibanez will be a loss but Rob Webber and Joe Ward can cover his loss satisfactorily. Replacing Palmer won't be a problem with Shaw, Skivington and Birkett a strong unit. Haskell will be missed but in Dan Leo, Tom Rees, Serge Betsen, Joe Worsley and Hugo Ellis they have talented players in the backrow. I could see them making a run for a backup number 8 to boost their numbers. Flutey will be a big loss because the Wasps midfield cupboard is so bare. What other centres do they have besides Dominic Waldouck? Josh Lewsey maybe but he's a far better back 3 player in my opinion. I know that they were linked with Waylon Murray a couple of months ago - given the lack of centre options at Adams Park next year, he'd be a very useful addition.[/b]

They've also got John Hart to cover at 8.
Defintely need to replace Flutey though.

 

[iWin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flyin Ryan @ Feb 17 2009, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Flutey is the dodgy one. Because he's already made a major career move - going to England. Now he's English and all of a sudden he's f***ed off to France - not only that, but to a distinctly average French team and to play outside Andy Goode, which is not my idea of fun. And he's gone to a minor little town in the South of France which is probably stuffed full of 2nd home Brits anyway. At least go to Biarritz or Montpellier so you can get some beach time![/b]

My guess would be that Flutey's move is largely for financial reasons. I mean, they've offered him just under a million Euros for 3 years work. That's triple what he gets now, and I think anyone would be tempted by that. Also, the appearance of Goode in the 6 nations shows that his international career is not over just because he moves to a different country, and after 3 years, he will be 32, which still definitely gives a chance at international rugby again.

 

[gingergenius]

Wasps are going down the pan.

With immense success over the last few years, they've managed to mask the fact that they have no fans and not much cash.

Now, the success is drying up. No HC this year, probs not next year either and flopping in the GP. Shaun Edwards is being distracted by Wales. Lots of players are leaving; most importantly DALLAGLIO.

Also, there's 2 clubs very closely linked to Wasps: My club, Richmond, groundshare with London Scottish and we play in National 3 South. Now, for one, Dominic Waldouck, Joe Simpson and Hugo Ellis were all part of a pretty legendary agegroup at Richmond. They went into Wasps Academy. My agegroup, 2 years below, was also highly successful, and Wasps Academy now includes Arthur Ellis and my centre partner, Will East. But more importantly, is London Scottish... their first team currently boasts ex Wasps men Paul Volley and Simon Amor. They've had a big cash injection lately and are paying players lots of money for such a small league. And I think Ian McGeechan will seriously consider going off to do something with Scottish (who will get promoted this year) after he's done with the Lions.

So that's the bulk of their coaching staff with fingers in other pies; large numbers of players retiring or going elsewhere (and don't forget that Betsen, Vickery, Shaw Worsley, Lewsey etc. are no spring chickens).

In fact, Wasps' future lies in the likes of Payne, Rees, Ellis, Simpson, Waldouck, Sackey, Cipriani and Voyce. They'll need to recruit heavily over the summer, especially in the backs, and make sure they hold onto Cips.

Don't expect Wasps to be anything special in coming years. Harlequins will be the big features in London rugby for the forseeable future.