Wales v Ireland, 02/02/13

[psychic duck]

Saw there head to head RTE also had one and made a very good point about the carrying for Wales Faletau often carries out wide receiving a pass off outside backs. Whereas Heaslip is often a one out carrier or a simply doing a pick and go. When Haslip gets it out wide he often works as a playmaker. At the start of his career Heaslip was like Faletau I do agree Faletau is a better carrier but Heaslip IMO has him in most other stuff.

Heaslip and Faletau are quite similar number 8's in style I think. The difference is though, that Heaslip is a few years ahead of him in terms of development and experience. Faletau is probably better lineout option, but Heaslip better at the breakdown. Both are very good defenders. I would back Heaslip though be the Lions 8 currently, he's been the most consistent 8 over the past 4 years, all the others have dipped in and out of form, Heaslip is consistent.

By the way. How come Ireland are the only ones who perform the "choke tackle"? No other side uses that like Ireland or Leinster do.

 

[big ginger 8]

Dull the Jones decision was not correct it's not a simple case of who falls to the ground first. Trust me it's not as black and white as you seemingly think.

Again you failed to acknowledge what Jenkins did just glossed over. He was fit as his work rate was getting back to where it should be.

Coombs was dire at times today, made some basic errors, he may have tried but he wasnt that great. Davies, Biggar and Cuthbert were deffo the worse. Despite Toby's great tackling and seemingly carrying ability, his failure to pass on two occasions on overlaps might have cost points. At one stage had he ran inside and drew the man a simple pass back to North would have resulted in North having a run for the line. Simple things like this cost Wales.

Oh and by drivel. Matter of opinion but lot of stuff I've had to read in this thread and other Welsh thread has made me cringe. Some of the criticism is correct but other is not and gives a tainted view of the game.. It's a constant issue at times. Wales weren't great first half but second half they showed what they are capable of.

As I said I'm not carrying on because of the fear of admonishing people.

Jones was binding on Healy's arm it was a penalty.

Was thinking about Fitz at 12 only concern would be he hasn't played there for what 5 years? He has the skills and ability just not the game time there, however I'd have him there over Earls every time.

Played there for Leinster during the WC.

 

[irelandfan123]

Coombs was dire at times today, made some basic errors, he may have tried but he wasnt that great.

think thats a bit unfair 17 carries and joint most line outs won for his debut was great... Can't think of anybody in the press that has slated him yet

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Jones was binding on Healy's arm it was a penalty.

Mike Ross doing the same no?

think thats a bit unfair 17 carries and joint most line outs won for his debut was great... Can't think of anybody in the press that has slated him yet

Only because Wales threw to him more than any other option in the lineout, hence the stat. Carries, well done to him. How about his costly decision not to become a pillar at the ruck on the Welsh line that allowed BOD to sneak through and score? Or about the stupid penalty when he came in from the side? Or when he lost the ball forward when Wales were gaining momentum? I was amazed that it's been glossed over.

 

[dullonien]

Saw there head to head RTE also had one and made a very good point about the carrying for Wales Faletau often carries out wide receiving a pass off outside backs. Whereas Heaslip is often a one out carrier or a simply doing a pick and go. When Haslip gets it out wide he often works as a playmaker. At the start of his career Heaslip was like Faletau I do agree Faletau is a better carrier but Heaslip IMO has him in most other stuff.

Yeah, that's a fair assessment really. I'm a big fan of Heaslip, and he's front-runner for the Lions atm. Faletau isn't far behind mind, although I do agree with Cymro that his lack of passing on occasion can let him down. The incidents Cymro mentioned earlier weren't apparent to me on initial viewing (and my attempt to re-watch it last night resulted in my switching it off after 10min), but when I do re-watch the game in full I'll look out for them.

Morgan looked strong for England up until he went off, and Beattie was also good for Scotland. Plenty of choices at 8.

Only because Wales threw to him more than any other option in the lineout, hence the stat. Carries, well done to him. How about his costly decision not to become a pillar at the ruck on the Welsh line that allowed BOD to sneak through and score? Or about the stupid penalty when he came in from the side? Or when he lost the ball forward when Wales were gaining momentum? I was amazed that it's been glossed over.

Yeah, he made a few errors. In hindsight it was a silly decision from him to try to counter ruck when Ireland were on the Welsh line, but I'm not going to pin that solely on him. Where the hell was the other Welsh defenders. There was literately no-one else there, other than those already on the floor, there was no-one even close. There's a collective blame there, but you'd hope that Coombs with a few more caps under his belt would identify that situation a little better and make a different decision.

The penalty was annoying, but something that many other experienced internationals do on a regular basis. The knock on similarly. I probably marked him a little high, but I'm prepared to overlook a couple of small mistakes (even if a couple of them were costly) for someone making his debut in such a high profile, and high intensity game. He deserves praise imo for his general contribution (that other more experienced members of the Welsh team didn't match yesterday), not picking out his mistakes, of which there were 3 in total.

 

[big ginger 8]

Mike Ross doing the same no?



Only because Wales threw to him more than any other option in the lineout, hence the stat. Carries, well done to him. How about his costly decision not to become a pillar at the ruck on the Welsh line that allowed BOD to sneak through and score? Or about the stupid penalty when he came in from the side? Or when he lost the ball forward when Wales were gaining momentum? I was amazed that it's been glossed over.

Ref was on Jonses' side not Ross' if he had been I'm sure it would have been a penalty. Jones is experienced enough to know when to keep it legal.

 

[Draggs]

Coombs was a solid player. Mucked up a bit but pulled it together. Certainly not our biggest problem at all.
Considering he isn't even a starting second row for his club, I'd say he stepped up well beyond his level. He only conceded two penalties (the most, but really now...). Good carrier alongside Evans, who performed admirably considering his layoff. I'd like to solidify the pack for this weekend, James for Jenkins, Hibbard for Rees, Kohn for Coombs (bench; only moved for a stronger scrum), Jones for Shingler, and Tipuric for Warburton. If Ian Evans isn't up to par fitness-wise, Ryan Jones to second row and Warburton joins Tipuric and Faletau. Bench: Rees, Jenkins, Mitchell, Coombs, Warburton/Shingler.

I'd like another 'playmaker' (not that we use them) in the backs, in the form of Hook. Allow a relief for Biggar if the French wing forwards get excited. Then again, this would require an entirely different type of play, one that our players would be incapable of executing. I hope Beck returns soon.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Yeah, that's a fair assessment really. I'm a big fan of Heaslip, and he's front-runner for the Lions atm. Faletau isn't far behind mind, although I do agree with Cymro that his lack of passing on occasion can let him down. The incidents Cymro mentioned earlier weren't apparent to me on initial viewing (and my attempt to re-watch it last night resulted in my switching it off after 10min), but when I do re-watch the game in full I'll look out for them.

Morgan looked strong for England up until he went off, and Beattie was also good for Scotland. Plenty of choices at 8.



Yeah, he made a few errors. In hindsight it was a silly decision from him to try to counter ruck when Ireland were on the Welsh line, but I'm not going to pin that solely on him. Where the hell was the other Welsh defenders. There was literately no-one else there, other than those already on the floor, there was no-one even close. There's a collective blame there, but you'd hope that Coombs with a few more caps under his belt would identify that situation a little better and make a different decision.

The penalty was annoying, but something that many other experienced internationals do on a regular basis. The knock on similarly. I probably marked him a little high, but I'm prepared to overlook a couple of small mistakes (even if a couple of them were costly) for someone making his debut in such a high profile, and high intensity game. He deserves praise imo for his general contribution (that other more experienced members of the Welsh team didn't match yesterday), not picking out his mistakes, of which there were 3 in total.

Costly mistakes Dull, and Coombs should have known that his priority to pillar first. Then to look to counter. He is experienced enough to know this, it's not international caps he needs. This is something that is told to players and they are coached. I have been coached / told to do this. Pillar up then counter ruck if need be.

By the way, the quick defending of Coombs and the quickness to forgive his mistakes is something I cannot understand. Would the same be given to that ... oh say ... Gethin? Or would it be because he is experienced enough to know or do better? I was lucky where I was sitting yesterday at the stadium I could see the entire pitch and from my seat I have the great advantage of seeing things develop and being able to see what players do. I will make the point that Gethin's workrate yesterday was brilliant. Infact I discussed this afterwards with a couple of rugby journalists (whom I am obliged not to name) who agreed with me Gethin looked far better yesterday than what he did in the AI. They also agreed that a lot of players put a good shift in. Coombs they agreed had carried well and was a lineout presence but also made errors. I looked at some of the papers this morning and some of their ratings for players was bizarre, and I question if some actually do watch the game.

Maybe I have been critical of Coombs but no so more than some about certain Wales players.

Ref was on Jonses' side not Ross' if he had been I'm sure it would have been a penalty. Jones is experienced enough to know when to keep it legal.

Hahaha and Healy isn't. You know as well as I do, Healy was looking to go to ground to win the penalty, regardless of Jones arm. It was obvious from most scrums yesterday.

 

[dullonien]

For some reason you seem to think that I'm completely slamming Gethin Jenkins, saying he was the worst Welsh player and doesn't deserve to be in the squad. Far from what I said, and far from what I believe. It's great that his workrate was high, hopefully that means he's getting back to match fitness. But if you're going to sit there and tell me that that was anywhere close to the level we have been used to seeing from Jenkins in the past, then you're clutching at straws. There are plenty of props out there who put in a good shift, what set Gethin apart for so long was that he was much, much more than that. I suppose he was picked ahead of the in-form Paul James because it was hoped he'd produce a performance of old, which I'm sorry he didn't. James would have hit rucks etc. as well. I really, really hope that Jenkins returns to the Blues, get's gametime and is back to being Welsh no.1 asap, but at the moment he's no our no.1.

This is not a direct attack on Jenkins, because as I said earlier I find it a little unfair that he's starting for Wales when he's barely playing for Toulon.

Ok, I agree re Coombs and the pillar thing. But yes you have gotta give someone a little slack for their 1st cap. There was 99 international games of experience between Coombs and Jenkins (as well as a healthy gap in class), that means something.

Edit. I consider the shift Jenkins put in as similar to that of Warburton. Both worked tirelessly, but well below their best. Warburton wasn't up to scratch at the ruck, an area he's usually great at, Jenkins didn't carry like usual, and his defensive presence wasn't there.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

For some reason you seem to think that I'm completely slamming Gethin Jenkins, saying he was the worst Welsh player and doesn't deserve to be in the squad. Far from what I said, and far from what I believe. It's great that his workrate was high, hopefully that means he's getting back to match fitness. But if you're going to sit there and tell me that that was anywhere close to the level we have been used to seeing from Jenkins in the past, then you're clutching at straws. There are plenty of props out there who put in a good shift, what set Gethin apart for so long was that he was much, much more than that. I suppose he was picked ahead of the in-form Paul James because it was hoped he'd produce a performance of old, which I'm sorry he didn't. James would have hit rucks etc. as well. I really, really hope that Jenkins returns to the Blues, get's gametime and is back to being Welsh no.1 asap, but at the moment he's no our no.1.

This is not a direct attack on Jenkins, because as I said earlier I find it a little unfair that he's starting for Wales when he's barely playing for Toulon.

Ok, I agree re Coombs and the pillar thing. But yes you have gotta give someone a little slack for their 1st cap. There was 99 international games of experience between Coombs and Jenkins (as well as a healthy gap in class), that means something.

Dull the caps thing is irrelevant for the pillar. It is something that he should know as a rugby player. It's almost basic rugby.

Dull the way you and others make it out Gethin is terrible, whether you and others mean to make it out to be, the way it is presented that is what conclusions are drawn from. It's also the failure to actually acknowledge his work, just the glossing over it. Yesterday showed that he is finding some form, not at his usual standards but getting there, I am confident he will come good.

RE ... others would do so, I'm not so sure. I am not so sure Paul James would be leading the line in the kick chase with the backs for an example but that's my opinion. I said before James deserved the start. But Gethin was not bad or terrible and was actually good for his contribution.

 

[Draggs]

One issue regarding Gethin is that while he hasn't been awful, he looks a massively different player than he did two years ago.
He has barely played for Toulon so match fitness/sharpness comes into play. Everybody has incredibly high standards for him. I just don't think he is fully suited to a starting position yet. Paul James has started 12 matches for Bath; Gethin 4 for Toulon. You can't come off the bench every week and then be expected to be 100% for an international. it just isn't fair on the player. Gethin is moving back for next season, so he isn't done yet.

 

[dullonien]

Dull the caps thing is irrelevant for the pillar. It is something that he should know as a rugby player. It's almost basic rugby.

Dull the way you and others make it out Gethin is terrible, whether you and others mean to make it out to be, the way it is presented that is what conclusions are drawn from. It's also the failure to actually acknowledge his work, just the glossing over it. Yesterday showed that he is finding some form, not at his usual standards but getting there, I am confident he will come good.

RE ... others would do so, I'm not so sure. I am not so sure Paul James would be leading the line in the kick chase with the backs for an example but that's my opinion. I said before James deserved the start. But Gethin was not bad or terrible and was actually good for his contribution.

I'm sure everyone is taught that, but it doesn't change the fact that on the big stage, where you've gotta make the split second decision, inexperience can sometimes lead players to make the wrong ones. If that were't the case then experience would mean little, but we all know that's not the case. I'm sure Dan knows that kicking right footed with Best coming in for a charge down from his right isn't the correct way to do things, but in the moment he maybe panicked a little and made a mistake. Both will learn and hopefully neither will repeat their mistakes.

I'm sorry if that's how my assessment of Gethin Jenkins came across. I know my marks given were probably a little harsh (as they were for Rees, Adam, Shingler, Warbs and Roberts), but I'm just disappointed that he's not the player he was not so long ago. I'm frankly angry with Toulon for wasting a year of his playing career, and feel for Gethin that his 'big move' didn't work out. I'm sure he'll be back on top as well, but maybe not before he's back at the Blues and playing week-in week-out in the Pro 12/Heineken. I know I glossed over his contributions, but I did so with all my ratings, after all they were quick one-liners. Not gonna fit in everythign without writing a paragraph on each.

Maybe Paul James wouldn't be leading the kick-chase, but he'd be putting in his fair share of work elsewhere which can be just as valuable.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

One issue regarding Gethin is that while he hasn't been awful, he looks a massively different player than he did two years ago.
He has barely played for Toulon so match fitness/sharpness comes into play. Everybody has incredibly high standards for him. I just don't think he is fully suited to a starting position yet. Paul James has started 12 matches for Bath; Gethin 4 for Toulon. You can't come off the bench every week and then be expected to be 100% for an international. it just isn't fair on the player. Gethin is moving back for next season, so he isn't done yet.

100% I agree. Before the game I was keen for James to start because Gethin is simply not playing. As for next week I am in two minds, James would be good against Mas but Jenkins showed he is coming back to some sort of shape but whether that is enough to let him keep the shirt really depends on training this week. My head says James my heart Jenkins.

 

[Draggs]

The thing is that international rugby isn't where a player should get back to form. The whole Toulon debacle has really messed Geth up. I'd gladly welcome him to the Dragons. Hell, he'd be first choice at any club in Wales.

Maybe it was the the perspective, but Geth does look a little 'slimmer' than November. Hopefully they've given him a good runaround in training. I desperately want the Geth that played fullback against Namibia to return.

 

[dullonien]

On a different note, coming back to the coaching. I think it's been painfully obvious during all of Gatland's tenure (this includes Howley, Edwards and McBryde) that they are too slow to react to the ever changing game at international level. A good example of this is in defence. In 2008 our defence was magnificent, and was the basis for our success at the time, and again during the WC and last years 6 nations our defence once again was strong with the spot blitz working wonderfully, but do we keep the same systems for too long, allowing other teams to figure us out and form a plan to combat this?

I remember a Cardiff v Wasps game from around '05 or '06 when Gatland and Edwards were in charge of the then European champions (or not long after), and their blitz defence was causing all teams problems. I just remember Nicky Robinson time and again unlocking this apparently un-penetrable defence with long missed passes. This brings me to the current Welsh tactic of spot blitzing in the centres and how ineffective it has been recently. The Scarlets have adopted the same tactic and are equally struggling with teams like Leinster easily getting on the outside into the mass of space left by this tactic. Why hasn't there been a change, we don't we evolve our game all the time like NZ do?

After the '08 GS, during '09 to the beginning of 2011, Welsh fans and public were getting frustrated with our once dimensional game-plan. It all came together during the WC and 6 nations with the introduction of some truly on-form players and often the superior size in the backs and superior fitness. But this wouldn't last forever, other teams catch-up, or they figure out ways to counter this. And this is where we have come unstuck once more imo. Howley, like Gatland is determined to stick with the same tactics that brought us success last year, but in rugby if you stand still for a moment, you are overtaken. NZ are continually evolving how they play, why can't we?

 

[lucky number 7]

I see several people on here who are essentially condoning the stamping or raking with the cleats in a ruck. Being a new player, I never played in the old times when it was apparently allowed, but what I watched yesterday was brutal and unnecessary. The Wales number 3, with the long brown hair, Adam Jones I believe, was immediately stomping in every ruck, regardless of if an Irish player was "in the way" or not. It was honestly disgusting to watch, and if I noticed someone doing that in a game, I would put a target on their back for some sort of retaliation. I don't care if you think someone isn't rolling away fast enough, taking your cleat and jamming it into someone as hard as you can is bullshit, let alone aiming it for their face.

As a flanker on the receiving end of hundreds of good rakings since I began playing I can say with absolute certainty if you don't roll away or try to kill the ball you should expect and embrace a solid shoe ****ing.

The only time one should feel aggrieved at a stamping for not rolling is if its to the face or groin , otherwise you've most likely deserved it.

I've plenty of scars from it that ill carry with me through life , each and every one of them deserved. Raking is a part of the game and of there is a god of rugby please god let it continue. This is not football.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

As a flanker on the receiving end of hundreds of good rakings since I began playing I can say with absolute certainty if you don't roll away or try to kill the ball you should expect and embrace a solid shoe ****ing.

The only time one should feel aggrieved at a stamping for not rolling is if its to the face or groin , otherwise you've most likely deserved it.

I've plenty of scars from it that ill carry with me through life , each and every one of them deserved. Raking is a part of the game and of there is a god of rugby please god let it continue. This is not football.

Add to that if the player is no where near the ball I don't like seeing the boots go in. But agreed with LN7.

 

[psychic duck]

One issue regarding Gethin is that while he hasn't been awful, he looks a massively different player than he did two years ago.
He has barely played for Toulon so match fitness/sharpness comes into play. Everybody has incredibly high standards for him. I just don't think he is fully suited to a starting position yet. Paul James has started 12 matches for Bath; Gethin 4 for Toulon. You can't come off the bench every week and then be expected to be 100% for an international. it just isn't fair on the player. Gethin is moving back for next season, so he isn't done yet.

Gethin has just played one match for Toulon all year as well. He was injured for a month between mid December and only returned on 25 January. And the reason he hasn't been playing for Toulon is because his form has been terrible. His form wasn't even that good on that tour to Australia in June before he joined Toulon either. Enough of the excuses for Gethin, he simply hasn't been playing well these past 6-8 months. His lack of game time is because he hasn't been playing well. He was absolutely destroyed by Cencus Johnston in his first start for Toulon this season, and that was with a pretty good prop in Carl Hayman alongside.

Meanwhile Paul James was on the form of his life in the Ospreys Pro12 ***le run last season, and has been a regular starter for Bath. So in my opinion, starting James is an obvious selection, especially as when he came on against Ireland in his first scrum he destroyed them.

RE ... others would do so, I'm not so sure. I am not so sure Paul James would be leading the line in the kick chase with the backs for an example but that's my opinion. I said before James deserved the start. But Gethin was not bad or terrible and was actually good for his contribution.

I am also not so sure that Gethin would be pushing the Irish scrum backwards and winning penalties. Paul James did immediately after coming on.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I am also not so sure that Gethin would be pushing the Irish scrum backwards and winning penalties. Paul James did immediately after coming on.

Different circumstance, considering James faced a much tired Ireland pack, there should have been no reason for him not to make an immediate impact. Similar to when Sean Holley last night on Scrum V showed a stat with Tipuric and Warburton for meters made. Holley was banging the drum about the yards, and the level headed Martyn Williams said, that what Holley said was slightly misleading because the game had opened up suiting Tipuric's style, hence why he was allowed to make meters.

I am not doubting James and I called for him to start, but Gethin really didn't let us down Saturday. Neither would James if he would have had he started.

 

[wlshby09]

Nobody in the Welsh setup seems capable of making bold decisions. If somebody is not playing well, they have to go. I'm tired of waiting to see if certain players start performing like their past selves. Picking players purely on merit is the reason we are on this losing run, and I have to mention something that Will Carling tweeted after the game, saying how England relied on picking their world cup winners for far too long after the 03 world cup. It is exactly what we are doing, picking the same old team again and again, hoping they will play like they did in the last world cup. Can anyone remember the last really good game that Phillips had? Or Roberts? So why haven't they been dropped? It would probably do them a bit of good, knowing they have to fight for their place back rather than knowing they will be in regardless of how crap they play.
Watching scrum V last night, I was really hoping someone on there would be saying that this is not good enough, players have to go, big changes have to be made, but no, all they could focus on is the better second half and lets just gloss over the first half because Ireland were good.
England had a big shake up when Lancaster came in, and although it pains me to say it, they are miles and miles ahead of Wales right now.