Wales v England

[Peat]

Croft and Lawes are two of the four players I'd want to lose from this England team least. I suspect our loose 5 will be dogshit-esque.

 

[Draggs]

Adam Jones injured-
There goes our best asset.
I think we can still be competent in the scrums, but not dominant. Perhaps Andrews and Bevington will have shot.

Iestyn Thomas isn't that great IMHO; he clearly struggled last weekend when Gardiner came off.

Turnbull, McCusker and Stoddart played their way into the squad this weekend. McCusker is still regaining his form, and Stoddart showed his positive aspects (good attacker, hugely physical). If he could tackle, he would be close to the 22 every match.

Squad will be announced next Monday, if he were to do a ~30 man squad as usual, I'd guess this.

Props
Paul James
Duncan Jones
Scott Andrews
Craig Mitchell
John Yapp (Not the best, but he has actually seemed slightly competent at times)

Hookers
Matthew Rees
Richard Hibbard
T Rhys Thomas (The last two aren't the best, but better than Bennett and Williams)

Second Row
Bradley Davies
Alun Wyn Jones
Luke Charteris/Ian Evans (Evans has struggled with injuries and his form has gone down, but has potential)

Back Row
Dan Lydiate
Sam Warburton
Ryan Jones
Andy Powell
Josh Turnbull
Toby Faletau

Scrum Halves
Mike Phillips
Dwayne Peel
Tavis Knoyle (not the best 9, but better than Roberts and Evans)

Outside Halves
Stephen Jones
Rhys Priestland
<del>Dan Biggar</del> (lol, jk)

Centres
Jamie Roberts
James Hook
Jonathan Davies
Gareth Maule (In good form, might as well give him a shot)

Wing/Fullback
Shane Williams
Leigh Halfpenny (Also cover for 15)
Morgan Stoddart
Lee Byrne
George North (Pending return from injury)

Not considered due to injury: Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Andrew Bishop, Tom Shanklin, Gavin Henson
Not considered for other reasons: Richie Rees (ban), Dan Biggar and Huw Bennett (...)

 

[dullonien]

That looks very good Draggs. Only obvious name missing is Martyn Williams. Although I think Warburton, Turnbull and Tipuric are on better current form than Martyn Williams, I think Williams will make the cut, because he is a proven performer for Wales, especially in the 6 nations where there's no-one of McCaw or Pockok's strength at the breakdown. I think he's still got an important role to play for Wales untill the WC is over, even if that role looks more and more likely to be an impact sub off the bench. It's a little early yet for Tipuric probably.

I hope Dan Biggar is left out, because it will bring him down to earth. His one big strength (goal kicking) has let him down in cruicial Ospreys games, what else does he offer anymore? Where's his game management gone? Where's the pin-point long passing gone that he demonstrated so well at U20 level? He's going backwards at a rate of knots, and we've gotta be asking ourselves exactly what the Ospreys are doing with the backline players they're supposed to be nurturing. Biggar, Hook and Gareth Owen are three that haven't progressed much in the last couple of years, infact all are regressing at a rate of knots. Lyn Jones' departure really starting to have an effect? Wasn't Scott Johnson hailed in 2005 for coaching some of the best individual skills we've recently seen from a Welsh squad, well where the hell is that evidence in the Ospreys. When he was recruited, I honestly thought we'd see the O's play an expansive game, utillising space with a quick and accurate passing game that suited the player base, well how wrong was I. I feel the Ospreys coaches and management is holding them back as a squad, and that innevitably carries on to the national team when so many current internationals are from the region. Lyn, I'm sorry, I'd have you back in a heartbeat if it meant getting rid of Holley, Johnson etc.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Gents I don't think Gatland will move James over to 3, out of his last three performances James played at 3 for Wales he was not that stable, he has shown he is a good loosehead, so I think Gatland will stick with him at 1, the major dilemma will come at 3. Mitchell is still raw, Yapp is frankly a waste of space and Andrews is untested. The frustrating thing about it all is that Gatland had the option to look at Andrews in detail over the AI and failed to do so.

Just remember also all this talk of Tupric being class, he has only had a handful of games, he still needs some more regular game time. He's been good but he still raw. I don't think Gatland will pick both Tupric and Turnbull, it will be one or the other in the squad. He won't have to many uncapped players in the squad.

Still believe Ashley Smith is a better option than Maule, Maule looks small in size for an international centre.

For me the Ospreys are effecting Welsh rugby. Holley is quite right, there is to many international players there. For me they need to rid of some of the players, and this is where I strongly believe the WRU should step in and go right Dragons if you want so and so we will help fund you the move for one or two of these players. If the Ospreys play shite then so do Wales, it looks like this is going to be the case. If Gatland has any sense he will look to change the gameplan. You often feel Wales and Ospreys play similarly and if the Os are not playing well in the system then they are not going to do that well in the Welsh system.

 

[Draggs]

Yes, Nugget, of course! No JT though
Maule is 6'3", Ashley Smith is 6' but I think Smith has more to offer down the line.

Agree about James and the tighthead situation. Bear in mind when James played at 3 he was just getting back into International rugby. Hopefully some young lad will play their heart out for the spot come the day.

O's look like Wales (so do the Wasps...) but I think all regions have their own massive issues. We have the players, but the coaching is poor. I do think Gatland is good, but is surround by incompetence at the International (Shaun and Rob) and Regional (Hore/Holley/Johnson, Davies, Young, Turner) levels. I hope Hook and Byrne leave, some proper coaching could turn them around. (Although I hear Johnson might be off to USAP- poor Hooky)

 

[dullonien]

I'd also say Maule is bigger than Ashley Smith. To be brutally honest, I don't really think either are quite up to international standard. Ashley Smith probably has the greater skill set, but Maul has been in better form. Imo, Beck at the O's has more potential than both, but again rarely get's gametime (though he looked good against Leinster a couple of weeks back). Hang on a minute, didn't I say the same with Gareth Owen? ******* Ospreys!!!

I still think Paul James is our best option on the tight, and I wouldn't be atall surprised if Gatland went that way. Mitchell and Gardiner look like the other two likely bets. Andrews' scrummaging is nowhere neer up to the standard required, although Mitchell and Gardiner aren't massively better. We all know Sheridan isn't quite the scrummager that the English media make out, but if he does get on top, he can dominate a player with his bruit strength. I can't see Paul James allowing that, he has the experience and strength to counter Sheridan imo. Duncan Jones can handle Cole imo, he scrummaged very well against LI when he came on, arguably better than Paul James.

I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two left field selections, Tipuric or Gardiner possibly, though I do agree with Cymro about Tipuric. However look what happened with North, I was worried he needed more regional gametime aswell, but sometimes natural talent prevails.

Draggs, I don't think Nigel Davies, Young and Turner are poor coaches, however they're possibly more suited to a place in the backroom rather than the head coach. I'd include Nigel Davies as Welsh back's coach in an instant, he'd do ten times the job Howley does. He get's the best (attacking wise) from the Scarlets, and did so with Wales when Gareth Jenkins was in charge. Turner was being hailed as a great choach last season, not sure what's up there really, more down to players not really performing in my view. Young's main problem is his poor recruiting, Knight and now Parks have been aweful recruits, that don't fit in with the way the Blues need to play. As an ex Prop, the Blues scrum aint great either!

Edit: Regarding centres, along with Beck being promising, Scott Williams is equally if not more so. I wanna see him get more opportunities at the Scarlets, as I feel he offers close to the complete package physically. He'sboth quick, nimble and strong.

 

[Dougydeluxe]

Shanklin is also injured. Wales is getting thin quick.

 

[dullonien]

Shanklin is also injured. Wales is getting thin quick.

Yeh it was reported earlier in this thread. Not a massive loss imo. He's half the player when he's not alongside Henson. Whilst he can still make breaks, his distribution has always let him down to some extent, and he's struggled recently to take full advantage of those breaks (lack of supporting players also a big issue which is not his fault).

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I'd also say Maule is bigger than Ashley Smith. To be brutally honest, I don't really think either are quite up to international standard. Ashley Smith probably has the greater skill set, but Maul has been in better form. Imo, Beck at the O's has more potential than both, but again rarely get's gametime (though he looked good against Leinster a couple of weeks back). Hang on a minute, didn't I say the same with Gareth Owen? ******* Ospreys!!!

I still think Paul James is our best option on the tight, and I wouldn't be atall surprised if Gatland went that way. Mitchell and Gardiner look like the other two likely bets. Andrews' scrummaging is nowhere neer up to the standard required, although Mitchell and Gardiner aren't massively better. We all know Sheridan isn't quite the scrummager that the English media make out, but if he does get on top, he can dominate a player with his bruit strength. I can't see Paul James allowing that, he has the experience and strength to counter Sheridan imo. Duncan Jones can handle Cole imo, he scrummaged very well against LI when he came on, arguably better than Paul James.

I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two left field selections, Tipuric or Gardiner possibly, though I do agree with Cymro about Tipuric. However look what happened with North, I was worried he needed more regional gametime aswell, but sometimes natural talent prevails.

Draggs, I don't think Nigel Davies, Young and Turner are poor coaches, however they're possibly more suited to a place in the backroom rather than the head coach. I'd include Nigel Davies as Welsh back's coach in an instant, he'd do ten times the job Howley does. He get's the best (attacking wise) from the Scarlets, and did so with Wales when Gareth Jenkins was in charge. Turner was being hailed as a great choach last season, not sure what's up there really, more down to players not really performing in my view. Young's main problem is his poor recruiting, Knight and now Parks have been aweful recruits, that don't fit in with the way the Blues need to play. As an ex Prop, the Blues scrum aint great either!

Edit: Regarding centres, along with Beck being promising, Scott Williams is equally if not more so. I wanna see him get more opportunities at the Scarlets, as I feel he offers close to the complete package physically. He'sboth quick, nimble and strong.

Dull why would you move our best loosehead option to tighthead? When he already twice this season had Cole's number, and not often would you say that. James is average at tighthead, we would be best served at taking a gamble with Andrews / Mitchell / Yapp ... even Ben Broster

When I said Ashley Smith he seems bigger in size as in bulk not size. For me he has been a decent player in a poor Dragons side and has done for years. I don't think Beck is at the standard required, showed much early promise when he was with the U20 but again Ospreys have in the past chosen the likes of Sonny Parker to play infront of the youngsters.

I don't disagree about Tupric being included but you can't just drop Martyn Williams with the experience he has and also his last couple of outings for Wales was not that bad. Once the WC is over then we got to look at giving the Tupric's and Turnbull's the real go.

 

[dullonien]

Cymro, the only reason I'd be willing to shift Paul James, is becaus of Duncan Jones. I know he hasn't been back all that long, but for someone of his experience, for me he's shown enough. I thought the Ospreys scrum was better when he came on for Paul James against LI, and has been generally very good in every game I've seen in him recently. It took a little time for him to get his scrummaging back up to scratch, but he has now. He also offers much more than Paul James in the loose. The only worry I have is about how long Duncan Jones can last, as he's yet to have played a full game for the O's, so he will probably last a half only for Wales.

I see little point in having a strong looshead prop, if the tighthead is going backwards, and that's a possibility with Mitchell, Andrews, Yapp or Gardiner. Mitchell or Gardiner appear the best scrummagers of that lot, but I still think Paul James scrummages better than them all, even on the tight. I haven't seen enough of Broster to make any comments on him, but if he's scrummaging well, with Shaun Edwards there I'm sure he'll be in the recogning.

I still think Maul seems bigger, even bulk wise. Never thought of Ashley Smith as being a bulky centre, although he punches well above his weight in both defense and on the crashball. I'd have Smith ahead of Maul aswell btw. Maul has been doing well, but I just have a feeling about him that he's playing to his full potential now, and that there's little more to come.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Cymro, the only reason I'd be willing to shift Paul James, is becaus of Duncan Jones. I know he hasn't been back all that long, but for someone of his experience, for me he's shown enough. I thought the Ospreys scrum was better when he came on for Paul James against LI, and has been generally very good in every game I've seen in him recently. It took a little time for him to get his scrummaging back up to scratch, but he has now. He also offers much more than Paul James in the loose. The only worry I have is about how long Duncan Jones can last, as he's yet to have played a full game for the O's, so he will probably last a half only for Wales.

I see little point in having a strong looshead prop, if the tighthead is going backwards, and that's a possibility with Mitchell, Andrews, Yapp or Gardiner. Mitchell or Gardiner appear the best scrummagers of that lot, but I still think Paul James scrummages better than them all, even on the tight. I haven't seen enough of Broster to make any comments on him, but if he's scrummaging well, with Shaun Edwards there I'm sure he'll be in the recogning.

Paul James scrummaging at tight head is as good as Mitchell, Andrews etc. If he was good enough he would have stayed there, the fact he has switched and been pretty successful at loosehead then it says it all. Duncan is Duncan, ye he's been good, but when you consider previous Welsh form James is the man you need to at least have a crack and stopping Cole, the previous history is there with James having his number. Yes tighthead is important, but at the moment you can't mess round with a good loosehead going over to become a sub-standard tighthead prop. Might as well through one of the youngsters in and see if he sinks or swims. You only way you are going to find that out if you try them.

 

[dullonien]

Suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes we need to bring through a youngster, and as you said earlier, the AI's was an opportunity to do that with the safetynet of having Adam Jones on the bench. England however is not the team to do that against I feel.

I'd say the reason Paul James switched back to his natural position is because he's obviously better there, but also because the Ospreys had more strength on the tight than the loose. Duncan was injured, whilst at tighthead they had Adam and Mitchell who both had international experience. Bevington hadn't really started playing for them yet. I disagree that James is no better than Mitchell and Andrews, he filled in extremely well when called upon last time, whilst Mitchell and especially Andrews have struggled even at Magners level scrum time.

Paul James is certainly the best player to contain Cole, but imo he's also the best option to contain Sheridan. There's not very often a problem at looshead at the scrum, mainly because the Hooker applies more pressure to that side, as you know. Shure up the tighthead and the rest should take care of itself. I think this is most evident when looking at Gethin Jenkins. With Adam Jones at 3 for Wales he was part of a dominant Welsh scrum, replace Adam with Felise at the Blues and all of a sudden the pressure comes through and his scrummaging weaknesses comes to the surface.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes we need to bring through a youngster, and as you said earlier, the AI's was an opportunity to do that with the safetynet of having Adam Jones on the bench. England however is not the team to do that against I feel.

I'd say the reason Paul James switched back to his natural position is because he's obviously better there, but also because the Ospreys had more strength on the tight than the loose. Duncan was injured, whilst at tighthead they had Adam and Mitchell who both had international experience. Bevington hadn't really started playing for them yet. I disagree that James is no better than Mitchell and Andrews, he filled in extremely well when called upon last time, whilst Mitchell and especially Andrews have struggled even at Magners level scrum time.

Paul James is certainly the best player to contain Cole, but imo he's also the best option to contain Sheridan. There's not very often a problem at looshead at the scrum, mainly because the Hooker applies more pressure to that side, as you know. Shure up the tighthead and the rest should take care of itself. I think this is most evident when looking at Gethin Jenkins. With Adam Jones at 3 for Wales he was part of a dominant Welsh scrum, replace Adam with Felise at the Blues and all of a sudden the pressure comes through and his scrummaging weaknesses comes to the surface.

I think Paul James would disagree with you by saying tighthead is his natural position now, he would be adamant that he was average at best and now feels more at home in the lose. James looks more natural at loosehead, we need to breed a tighthead and not have a stop gap in James there.

Anyway Gatland has made his options quite clear ....

Loosehead:

Paul James
Duncan Jones
Rhys Gill
John Yapp

Tighthead:

Craig Mitchell
Paul James
Ben Broster
Scott Andrews

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/9364845.stm

So there we are. Still got a feeling depending on who does the best this weekend will get the spot at 3 for Wales. I seriously think if Gatland was going to move James to 3 he would have requested the Ospreys play him there with Duncan Jones at loose head.

 

[Sixesandsevens]

I'll be interested to see the make up of the england midfield....I imagine that it will be the same as the Autumn with Flood, Hape and Tindall but I think it is a huge waste not to get Jonny Starting, he has been playing so well for Toulon, even in the loss to Ospreys yesterday it was him going off to be rested that changed the game, he was dominating untill then, with Toulons 2nd string! I would have him and Flood in whichever combination at 10 and 12 playing off eachother, I dont think that combos been given enough of a chance.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think the Youngs/Flood axis outweighs any advantages of having Wilkinson over flood
Also, Wilkos been playing better for Toulon since he first arrived there, but not bringing his form back to England with him. Maybe it'd change now that the England gameplan has, but I'd still start flood over him

10. Wilkinson, 12. Flood could work, but I'd rather him stick at FH and play Flutey at 12 (Fluteys playing very well at Wasps atm) - though I remember Flood going well at 12 against Wales last year (however I think that's the last time he played at 12? So he may be a bit rusty, but I suppose he would've been last year as well, as I can't remember seeing him turn out at 12 for Tigers)

I imagine, throughout the 6N we'll see variations of:

10: Flood/Wilkinson
12. Hape/Flutey
21: Wilkinson/Flood/Flutey/Hodgson

 

[Sixesandsevens]

Yes you are right he hasnt played 12 since. Last season he had played the odd game at 12 with Staunton at 10 when tigers were low on numbers, I was thinking Wilkinson could play 12 ala catt, and flood and he could mix and match at 10 and 12 respectively. I would argue that Wilko was our standout player in the 2009 Autumn series and that he was completely screwed over in the 6nations by Fluteys awful run of form (straight back from injury) and Cares form dip too! But thats just my opinion.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

That just shows that Wilkinson is a great bench option. He could be a great match winner if flood isnt doing too well but otherwise theres no reason to change the midfield too much.

Olyy, to be honest I don't think Flutey has had time to really stake any sort of claim since being back from injury. He played fly-half against Glasgow and I can't honestly say he did much more than hold the fort. However he showed flashes of skill when he came on against the dragons.

I think it all depends on how MJ views the south africa setback. If he just puts that down to being overpowered in the forwards then he will probably go for the don't try and fix what's not broken approach as regards our backline. Besides, I think he's a big fan of the crash ball of hape, especially after we lacked that sort of thing for so long, so he'll be unwilling to let that go I imagine.

It's tricky though, I've always been a fan of flutey cos i've seen him play alot for wasps, but I dont' think he's had the sort of chances that hape has, in that flutey has never played for and england team really at its best with all the right components in place. He's been around for the last few seasons through some very poor england performances. Hape on the other hand has had the best shot possible, in that the team has been playing well around him.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

True that Flutey is only just back, but I'd still have him over Hape,
He's got alot more skill, and Hape, in his own words, is playing like sh** since the AIs (I personally think it's because they switched him to 12 and Barkley to 13 at Bath, I presume because he plays 12 for England, and without Barkley telling him what to do he's got no idea) - Think Flutey would do well in the new England play-style - Much like he did for the B&I Lions

I expect Flutey to be at 21 the most though, and not straight off/much (for Wales I imagine 10. Flood, 12. Hape, 21. Wilkinson)

 

[gingergenius]

flutey would suit the new england style better, but imo he's getting on a bit and is short of fitness.

england's problem areas atm lie in the 2nd row, back row and centres. with lawes and attwood out, they'll have to play an ageing shaw alongside palmer, with someone like deacon on the bench. much as palmer has improved, none of those guys fill me with confidence.

back row wise, we've lost one of our best players in croft, and the captain, moody. For me, Robshaw's got to start at 6 and I'd hope Andy Saull's brought into the EPS to challenge for 7. However, Johnson will probably pick Haskell and Fourie, which, frankly, gets you nowhere. Dowson should be in the mix too.

Centres, there aren't too many options. Hape and Tindall is tried and tested, and is average. Throwing Flutey in at 12 would bring a lot more guile and could be a decent looking midfield, but we don't know what kind of form Flutey's in. I'd say these are the two options Johnson will be thinking about. I wouldn't like to see a 10 playing 12 either, so no Flood/ Geraghty there please.

Given that this is world cup year, I don't think we'll see anyone like Tuilagi coming through. Waldouck would certainly play in my book, but is injured. Allen would be another guy to throw in but Johnson doesn't like him.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, Flutey looks to be carrying a bit of extra timber since he came back from injury
I don't think Fourie is a bad player, certainly no worse than Moody - he gives it his all, and did well in the Autumn (some good hits, and important turnovers) - but he's not the best, and is aging...oh yeah, and a Springbok :blink:
I'd be happy with either of Saull or Armitage being called up, same with Robshaw v Dowson, all of those players deserve to be in the EPS
It's just disheartening to think that none of the callups (with the exception of Borthwick (probably) for Lawes) will get a decent amount of gametime, with Haskell and Fourie being the likely standins (and Worsely also in the mix <_< )