Wales Tour 2013: Japan

[Draggs]

12 Henson
13 Roberts (2009 edition)

The thing of dreams/nightmares.

I don't care what anybody says, Henson-Shanklin was the best centre partnership Wales have ever had. Impenetrable defence and stunning attack.
Henson's timing is something that cannot be taught. He might be a fool off-field, but he has one of the best rugby brains of this generation (alongside Larkham, Carter, Williams).

 

[psychic duck]

12 Henson
13 Roberts (2009 edition)

The thing of dreams/nightmares.

I don't care what anybody says, Henson-Shanklin was the best centre partnership Wales have ever had. Impenetrable defence and stunning attack.
Henson's timing is something that cannot be taught. He might be a fool off-field, but he has one of the best rugby brains of this generation (alongside Larkham, Carter, Williams).

I agree. It's a big shame we never saw Henson-Shanklin combination more. But when we did it's no coincidence that we won as many Grand Slams as Ireland won in their entire rugby history.

In a Wales XV of the professional era. I would have Henson/Shanklin as my centres, even though I'm a big Scott Gibbs fan and can't stand the talent Henson has wasted being a wannabe z-list celebrity (plus a bit of bad luck with ridiculous lengthy bans, and injuries). He should have 80 odd caps for us now, yet only has 32. I wonder what a Henson/BOD combination would have been like had Woodward not ignored form and insisted of having Wilkinson in the team and BOD getting injured in 2 minutes.

Anyway Draggs. Considering that he seems to be finding some good form incredibly quickly at London Welsh, would you Wales' best passer (see below one of the best passes I've ever seen) for the tour of Japan as a 10 or 12?

 

[Draggs]

Inside centre. I'd consider Patchell or maybe Owen Williams at standoff (good performance v Munster, did he realise he was a turk 10 and playing well??).
Granted, Hook-Henson-Beck would be something. Jonathan Evans at scrumhalf, Walker and Robinson on the wings, fullback up for grabs (maybe Fussell).
I'd consider Cory Allen as well. Solid in defence and decent pace. Henson could put Allen into some good space.

 

[psychic duck]

Inside centre. I'd consider Patchell or maybe Owen Williams at standoff (good performance v Munster, did he realise he was a turk 10 and playing well??).
Granted, Hook-Henson-Beck would be something. Jonathan Evans at scrumhalf, Walker and Robinson on the wings, fullback up for grabs (maybe Fussell).
I'd consider Cory Allen as well. Solid in defence and decent pace. Henson could put Allen into some good space.

Cory Allen needs to get some game time for the Blues before being considered here. I first heard about him at least two years ago, yet I've hardly seen him play ahead of Hewitt and Gavin Evans. Even Richard Smith was preferred at 13 lately.

Having said that though. Centre options are a bit thin. I like the 10/12/13 axis you suggested, the only problem is that the Welsh coaches love Scott Williams and will almost certainly start him. They consider him above Beck as the third choice Welsh centre behind Davies and Roberts.

Any alternatives to Robinson on the wing? Aled Brew is only 26 by the way ...

 

[dullonien]

I don't care what anybody says, Henson-Shanklin was the best centre partnership Wales have ever had. Impenetrable defence and stunning attack.

I'd argue that the Gibbs-Bateman partership was also up there in the professional era. Bateman is imo one of Wales' most unsung heroes, absolute class...

Henson-Shanklin was also a top combo.

I hope Henson can get a run of injury free games and be involved with Wales in Japan. Whatever has happened in the past, he seems to have genuinely turned a corner. Unfortunately it may be a little late, but as one reporter suggested, due to the time out of the game, he may be able to continue a little longer than most players, especially as he doesn't rely on pace, so could easily be still playing at 35-36. H's worth trying out if we could have 4-5 years from him.

 

[Draggs]

All I have heard about Brew is that he hasn't been great for Biarritz, I never really pushed for Brew for the Welsh team. Never looked like a player who would kick on past Pro12.
Robinson, Walker, Fussell, would all go ahead of him. If Prydie can take the loss on the chin and turn it around, I'd back him for a return. We could do with a kicker in the back three.
Robinson might not be the most popular, and his inclusion has been discussed at length here, but I was very impressed with his performance v Munster. He bottled Howlett excellently.

Agree about Allen and the Blues, but we all know that club time is not a necessity for Wales.

Bateman-Gibbs was a bit before I started watching rugby, but he was indeed a very good player, Allan.

 

[psychic duck]

Aled Brew has scored more tries than any other active Welsh player in domestic rugby. Fact.

His track record at club level is far better than some other options. Such as Harry Robinson. He helped Biarritz to a win over Toulouse earlier this season (http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/blogs/a-successful-life-in-biarritz-for-aled-brew/).

Also people say that he was awful at international level. But that isn't true. He was ineffective and didn't really do much and the ball didn't come his way but wasn't awful and cost us points. Tom James for example bombed 7 points (and then made himself look a twat by trying to claim he didn't knock on) against England in his chance. Brew never coughed up try scoring chances or made howlers in defence, and also showed much better attitude.


I would happily take Brew back for Wales. Only 26 btw, younger than Fenby or Czekaj.

 

[Draggs]

I know his stats, I watched him play for the Dragons every week. I don't use James as a benchmark either. Brew wasn't awful either, did well enough v Barbarians.

I just don't see much that Brew can offer other than fast and straight. His handling is poor and doesn't have much of a kicking game. I know someone is going to say Cuthbert, but don't compare the two.
My preference for wings is very much in the Aus/NZ style, where they have almost the same skillsets as a fullback (Mitchell, Turner, O'Connor, Jane, Smith/Dagg).

 

[psychic duck]

I know his stats, I watched him play for the Dragons every week. I don't use James as a benchmark either. Brew wasn't awful either, did well enough v Barbarians.

I just don't see much that Brew can offer other than fast and straight. His handling is poor and doesn't have much of a kicking game. I know someone is going to say Cuthbert, but don't compare the two.
My preference for wings is very much in the Aus/NZ style, where they have almost the same skillsets as a fullback (Mitchell, Turner, O'Connor, Jane, Smith/Dagg).

Apart from Halfpenny. None of the Welsh wingers (North, Cuthbert, Walker) in the squad offer this. I reckon Eli Walker could perhaps if he worked on some areas of his game, but I'd rather he worked at his game as a winger first. But the other two would never make full backs.

If you want a winger who is can interchange at full back (eventually after some patient persistence) and offers more than just running straight ...

 

[Draggs]

Cuthbert was at fullback for his Cardiff RFC debut...
Henson has worked well as a fullback/playmaker joining the line. Roberts had/has a decent boot, I wish we kept him in the back three.

 

[Draggs]

Not sure about Harry Robinson touring.
He looks out of place in a poor Blues side, very iffy in defence.
Henson at fullback and entering as second receiver if needed?

 

[dullonien]

So now that the 6 nations are over, what are people's thoughts about this tour. There will be a large amount of Welsh players on the lions tour, I'm not sure exactly who, so for the sake of simplicity I'm going to rule out the entire starting 15 from yesterday, even if that is slightly unrealistic. I am also going to rule Ryan Jones out of the reckoning, a broken shoulder will need a while out, and even if he is technically fit in time, the time off to for pre-season training will do him good.

I'd be looking for Wales to play something like:

Front row: Ryan Bevington, Ken Owens, Scott Andrews.

We won't learn anything about Paul James against Japan, but giving Bevington more game time will be a good thing. Scott Andrews might genuinely have turned a corner with his scrummaging. Not only was he good in the AI's, but he also stood up well against Vunipola yesterday when he came on.

Second row: Luke Charteris, James King.

I'm expecting Charteris to be fit, although I've got no real idea if he will be. Bradley Davies will probably be fit, but this is a chance to get James King into the team. King's best position may be at 6, but with our strength in that area, it might be better to develop him at lock?

Back row: Dan Lydiate, Josh Navidi, Kieran Murphy/Andries Pretorius/Morgan Allen.

I don't think Lydiate has the time to prove himself in time for the Lions, although he's likely to be on stand-by. I think it would be a good way to ease him back into international rugby. I think Warbs and Tips will be with the lions, so this will give another form openside in Navidi a chance. 8 is a problem area. The options aren't great, not sure who to pick here. If Bearman wasn't already 34 I'd have him, but there's little point capping someone at his age.

Halfbacks: Lloyd Williams, James Hook.

Dan Biggar going on the Lions may be a long shot, but he may go, so I'll plan on the assumption he will. James Hook should be given the reigns in that case.

Centres: Gavin Henson/Ashley Beck, Cory Allen.

I desperately want to see both Henson and Beck play in red again, but they could never play together, so it's one or the other at 12. I suppose Henson could play 10, but I maintain 12 is his best position. We lack genuine 13's, but I think Allen has all the attributes to step-up to international rugby. I still can't believe that the Blues have overlooked him this season! Scott Williams is the likely starter, but he flatters to deceive.

Alternatively we could play 10 Henson, 12 Beck, 13 Hook, but that might end in a never ending loop of passing to each other without actually getting anywhere .

Back three: Eli Walker, Lee Byrne, Hanno Dirksen/Liam Williams.

Is Dirksen likely to be fit? Walker will start, and Byrne offers some solidity and experience to an inexperienced back three.

Bench: Scott Baldwin, Paul James, Samson Lee, Lloyd Peers/Bradley Davies, Aaron Shingler, Rhodri Williams/Tavis Knoyle, Ashley Beck/Gavin Henson, Liam Williams/Richard Fussell.

I'd like to see Baldwin involved, but Matthew Rees is the likely bench option. This will be a good opportunity to cap Lee, who imo is developing very nicely indeed. I'd also like to see Peers, but Bradley is probably too good a quality player to leave out. Aaron Shingler would be unlucky only to make the bench, but if Lydiate is there, that's the way it should be, unless Shingler starts over King in the second row. I'd like to see Rhodri Williams tour, but unless he starts more games for the Scarlets that won't happen either, with Knoyle the likelier. Patchell is maybe unlucky not to make the bench, but Henson offers 10 cover, whilst Beck is too good to miss out. Fussell would my preference as back three cover, but it'll undoubtedly be Liam Williams.

 

[psychic duck]

Not sure about Harry Robinson touring.
He looks out of place in a poor Blues side, very iffy in defence.
Henson at fullback and entering as second receiver if needed?

Agree about Harry Robinson. Although he does look better at U20 level than regional level to be fair.

No to Henson at full back though. I don't think he would be a bad full back, but he is Wales' most skilled ball player, I would want him getting more ball at either 10 or 12.

Front row: Ryan Bevington, Ken Owens, Scott Andrews.

We won't learn anything about Paul James against Japan, but giving Bevington more game time will be a good thing. Scott Andrews might genuinely have turned a corner with his scrummaging. Not only was he good in the AI's, but he also stood up well against Vunipola yesterday when he came on.

I wouldn't get too carried away about Andrews. I was amazed that he did well in his cameo against England, and England's props should be embarrassed that he managed to push them back. However, week in week out at regional level, although improved a bit from last season, he is still a long long way off the level required for international and the Blues scrum often struggles.

Craig Mitchell should be back hopefully for this tour. I also disagree about not selecting Paul James. We need to win the matches, and Japan have a weak scrum (Romania with 3rd choice props absolutely obliterated them in this part of the field last November), and James would be the ideal player to make use of that advantage, especially if you are planning on playing a tighthead who has been destroyed a fair few times over his career.

Also you say "you won't learn anything" by playing an experienced player, but then why have you included Charteris, Lee Byrne and James Hook later in your team? Paul James is a starter for me, and to be honest, I think the Lions could do worse than him as one of their three looseheads, and I also think he was hard done by not to start ahead of Gethin for this entire tournament.

Second row: Luke Charteris, James King.

I'm expecting Charteris to be fit, although I've got no real idea if he will be. Bradley Davies will probably be fit, but this is a chance to get James King into the team. King's best position may be at 6, but with our strength in that area, it might be better to develop him at lock?

King is very lightweight for a lock which is the downside of him there. So I would like Charteris' size next to him, but not sure if he is fit. And I wouldn't suggest two 6's in Coombs and King play at lock together. So Bradley Davies should start as one lock, and probably Coombs the other.

I'm not totally sure whether both AWJ an Ian Evans (although I think they should) will go on the Lions tour either, so they could be one of the locks anyway.

Back row: Dan Lydiate, Josh Navidi, Kieran Murphy/Andries Pretorius/Morgan Allen.

I don't think Lydiate has the time to prove himself in time for the Lions, although he's likely to be on stand-by. I think it would be a good way to ease him back into international rugby. I think Warbs and Tips will be with the lions, so this will give another form openside in Navidi a chance. 8 is a problem area. The options aren't great, not sure who to pick here. If Bearman wasn't already 34 I'd have him, but there's little point capping someone at his age.

Our number 8 options behind Toby are poor. None of those 8's particularly excite me. However there aren't any I could suggest ahead of them either, apart from Ieuan Jones who to be honest has impressed me despite the playing behind an god awful front five at the Dragons, so I would back him as a number 8 ahead of those three even though he is very green.

I hope there is no McCusker or Turnbull here though, neither are good enough.

Halfbacks: Lloyd Williams, James Hook.

Dan Biggar going on the Lions may be a long shot, but he may go, so I'll plan on the assumption he will. James Hook should be given the reigns in that case.

Not sure Biggar will go to Oz. But if he doesn't he would start of course. As for scrum half, I like Aled Davies at the Scarlets. Not a flash scrum half trying making breaks all the time, but simply one who can give good quick service for the backs which it sometimes gets forgotten that is the scrum halves main job. Rhodri Williams also looks decent, but is yet another sniping scrum half which there are loads of in Wales already. Davies others a different type of scrum half to all the others.

Centres: Gavin Henson/Ashley Beck, Cory Allen.

I desperately want to see both Henson and Beck play in red again, but they could never play together, so it's one or the other at 12. I suppose Henson could play 10, but I maintain 12 is his best position. We lack genuine 13's, but I think Allen has all the attributes to step-up to international rugby. I still can't believe that the Blues have overlooked him this season! Scott Williams is the likely starter, but he flatters to deceive.

Alternatively we could play 10 Henson, 12 Beck, 13 Hook, but that might end in a never ending loop of passing to each other without actually getting anywhere .

Why couldn't Henson and Beck play together? I like your alternative midfield most actually. Beck is very capable of acting the crash ball role, but also offers good offloading skills much better than Roberts or Davies as well.

Back three: Eli Walker, Lee Byrne, Hanno Dirksen/Liam Williams.

Is Dirksen likely to be fit? Walker will start, and Byrne offers some solidity and experience to an inexperienced back three.

Dirksen doesn't qualify until 2014. So Eli Walker, Aled Brew and Richard Fussell would be my preferred back three. Realistically though, there is no way that the Welsh coaches won't select the "next JPR" Liam Williams.

 

[dullonien]

I wouldn't get too carried away about Andrews. I was amazed that he did well in his cameo against England, and England's props should be embarrassed that he managed to push them back. However, week in week out at regional level, although improved a bit from last season, he is still a long long way off the level required for international and the Blues scrum often struggles.

Yeah, I'm hesitant to declare Andrews' scrummaging problems over, but maybe we should be looking at the players he has around him at the Blues? Gethin struggled at the scrum during his last season at the Blues, and we all know that with quality players around him he has no issues there with Wales. I'm not convinced about the scrummaging abilities of the Blues hookers, so maybe Rees will help in that department, and other than Bradley Davies, the scrummaging abilities of the Blues second rows might need to be questioned (including ***o when he was playing in Gethin's last season).

Craig Mitchell should be back hopefully for this tour. I also disagree about not selecting Paul James. We need to win the matches, and Japan have a weak scrum (Romania with 3rd choice props absolutely obliterated them in this part of the field last November), and James would be the ideal player to make use of that advantage, especially if you are planning on playing a tighthead who has been destroyed a fair few times over his career.

Also you say "you won't learn anything" by playing an experienced player, but then why have you included Charteris, Lee Byrne and James Hook later in your team? Paul James is a starter for me, and to be honest, I think the Lions could do worse than him as one of their three looseheads, and I also think he was hard done by not to start ahead of Gethin for this entire tournament.

I have no idea how Mitchell slipped my mind. Certainly start him ahead of Andrews.

The reason I said that we won't learn anything is to do with what you've already pointed out, Japan's scrum is very weak. Bevington will dominate the scrum as well, so why pick James? Bevington needs to be developed, and this is an opportunity to do that. I've picked Charteris because he needs re-integrating into the squad if he is back from injury in time, Byrne because I wanted some experience in the back three, and Hook because he deserves another chance at 10, and is too good a player just to forget about.

King is very lightweight for a lock which is the downside of him there. So I would like Charteris' size next to him, but not sure if he is fit. And I wouldn't suggest two 6's in Coombs and King play at lock together. So Bradley Davies should start as one lock, and probably Coombs the other.

I'm not totally sure whether both AWJ an Ian Evans (although I think they should) will go on the Lions tour either, so they could be one of the locks anyway.

We've got a lot of possible options in the second row, even if both AWJ and Evans go on the Lions. When fit, Charteris is a huge asset with his bulk, height and work-rate. Coombs will of course be involved in the squad, and I've probably been hugely unfair to pass him by to start. However King is a massive, massive talent, and I want to see him tested for Wales. Peers is another big talent that I would like to see given a chance, but there are others ahead of him atm probably. Bradley needs to step-up, because he's at risk of being overtaken. His carrying game needs to return to what it was when he burst onto the scene, but he's regressed into a bit of a ponderous oaf, with his discipline a problem as well.

Our number 8 options behind Toby are poor. None of those 8's particularly excite me. However there aren't any I could suggest ahead of them either, apart from Ieuan Jones who to be honest has impressed me despite the playing behind an god awful front five at the Dragons, so I would back him as a number 8 ahead of those three even though he is very green.

I hope there is no McCusker or Turnbull here though, neither are good enough.

I've been impressed with Ieuan Jones as well, but I feel like it's too early for him quite yet. But I really have no idea about 8, there isn't a stand-out option other than Bearman who's too old. Pretorius is likely to get the nod though after being involved in the 6 nations squad. Not sure how serious his injury is though.

Not sure Biggar will go to Oz. But if he doesn't he would start of course. As for scrum half, I like Aled Davies at the Scarlets. Not a flash scrum half trying making breaks all the time, but simply one who can give good quick service for the backs which it sometimes gets forgotten that is the scrum halves main job. Rhodri Williams also looks decent, but is yet another sniping scrum half which there are loads of in Wales already. Davies others a different type of scrum half to all the others.

If Biggar doesn't go, he starts for sure. He's growing nicely into the role.

As for scrum half, it's up to the Scarlets really in regards to Aled Davies, Rhodri Williams, Tavis Knoyle and Gareth Davies. They need to decide who their best options are and give them extended runs of games. It makes it difficult for Wales to pick, when they are all rotated on a consistent basis. I have been impressed with Rhodri Williams for the U20's though, and he started the season well for the Scarlets, before they dropped him for little reason. He's very young though, so might be best to leave him develop for another year or two and see where he is then. Aled Davies is good too, impressed with him. Prefer those two to Knoyle and Gareth Davies, but I'm certain Knoyle will be first in line for Wales due to his previous experience with the Welsh squad.

Why couldn't Henson and Beck play together? I like your alternative midfield most actually. Beck is very capable of acting the crash ball role, but also offers good offloading skills much better than Roberts or Davies as well.

I don't think there's enough pace with Henson and Beck. To get the best out of them, we'd need a quick, powerful outside centre, and that's where Cory Allen fit's in. Hook or Biggar aren't quick either at 10. If Davies doesn't go on the Lions tour, then leave him at 13, and put Henson/Beck inside him at 12.

Dirksen doesn't qualify until 2014. So Eli Walker, Aled Brew and Richard Fussell would be my preferred back three. Realistically though, there is no way that the Welsh coaches won't select the "next JPR" Liam Williams.

Forgot that Dirksen still had to wait another year. Ah well, he's been out injured for a while now, so he'll probably need next season to re-capture his form. I still see a lot of potential in Liam Williams, so I'm not fussed if he plays.

 

[Draggs]

I'd like Beck/Allen in midfield.
Owen Williams has looked pretty decent on the wing for the Blues as well. With Walker being injured at the moment, we could look at him then.

This could be an interesting team:

01 Bevington
02 Owens
03 Mitchell
04 Charteris
05 Kohn/Evans
06 King
07 Navidi/Tipuric
08 Jones

09 WilliamsLD
10 Henson
11 WilliamsLB
12 Beck
13 Allen
14 WilliamsO
15 Fussell

16 Baldwin
17 JonesR
18 Andrews
19 Coombs
20 Paterson
21 Evans
22 Patchell
23 WilliamsMS

Not saying I'd pick it, but it could be decent.

 

[psychic duck]

How come Corey Allen is starring heavily for Wales on the Sevens circuit possibly as their best player, yet can't get a look in at the Blues despite the fact the centres ahead aren't all that great?

I don't think he can be put forward for the actual XV side, until he shows some form at regional level.

 

[Draggs]

How come Corey Allen is starring heavily for Wales on the Sevens circuit possibly as their best player, yet can't get a look in at the Blues despite the fact the centres ahead aren't all that great?

I don't think he can be put forward for the actual XV side, until he shows some form at regional level.

I think Phil and Gareth are holding him back for this season. With Roberts going I hope he gets time. Hewitt and Evans all week every week

 

[dullonien]

How come Corey Allen is starring heavily for Wales on the Sevens circuit possibly as their best player, yet can't get a look in at the Blues despite the fact the centres ahead aren't all that great?

I don't think he can be put forward for the actual XV side, until he shows some form at regional level.

Because the Blues coaches are idiots. Allen has got an all round game that Hewitt and Evans can't touch, and yet he barely get's a look in. Owen Williams did more during his two or so games at centre than Gavin Evans has done in his entire time at the Blues, and more than Hewitt has done in a good while, and yet he's shifted back to the wing to make room for the 'dream pairing', or so it seems in Davies and Baber's eyes.

Cory Allen should have been first choice since the start of the season, with Owen Williams alongside him when Roberts wasn't available. If they won't pick him, I still think Wales should. It'd be a bit of a gamble maybe, but he's been a class act for the U20's and 7's.

 

[psychic duck]

I'd like Beck/Allen in midfield.
Owen Williams has looked pretty decent on the wing for the Blues as well. With Walker being injured at the moment, we could look at him then.

This could be an interesting team:

01 Bevington
02 Owens
03 Mitchell
04 Charteris
05 Kohn/Evans
06 King
07 Navidi/Tipuric
08 Jones

09 WilliamsLD
10 Henson
11 WilliamsLB
12 Beck
13 Allen
14 WilliamsO
15 Fussell

16 Baldwin
17 JonesR
18 Andrews
19 Coombs
20 Paterson
21 Evans
22 Patchell
23 WilliamsMS

Remember a factor is that we will be playing in the Japanese summer, so that means about 25 degree heat. last time we toured the match the match finished 53-30, and there was notably a lost tour match 45-41 to Suntory Sungoliath.

I reckon that whilst it may not be quite that high scoring as then with defences having tightened since 2001, it will be warm and tiring as Japan like to play an open expansive game with lots of quick ball and phases.

Dilemma whether to exploit their weak scrum with Paul James. Or whether to play into their tactics in a way, by selecting a quicker, lighter prop who could offer more to counter their expansive game in the summer heat.

Will be interesting to see whether Wales maintain Gatland style tactics and try and exploit Japanese frailties at scrum and some suspect tackling with big strong runners like they would in Wales, but who could get run around in hotter conditions. Or adapt to the conditions and try and play wider. Which could perhaps suit the Japanese as it is playing to their strength and negating the big advantage Wales have.

What I would change from your team. Would be I would add Paul James (I would actually take him on Lions tour), Lydiate or Ryan Jones as captain, Aled Davies, Eli Walker, Aled Brew into that team. Not sure about #13. I like Allen at Sevens, but not sure whether to select given he can't keep Evans/Hewitt out of the Blues side, but then there is lack of options really.

 

[Ospreylian]

1. Bevington
2. Owens
3. Mitchell
4. Coombs
5. King
6. Lydiate (C)
7. Navidi
8. Morgan Allen/ Kieran Murphy

9. L Williams/ T Knoyle
10. Morgan/Patchell
11. L Williams
12. Beck
13. Scott Williams
14. Walker
15. Fussell