Wales (The Gatland returns thread)

[Welsh Exile]

So, Gatland and Nigel Walker are having a
Press conference this afternoon. Must be confirming that Gatland is staying on for the long term. I must admit, like I was when we first appointed him, I'm underwhelmed. I thought it made total sense in the short term with him moving up to a director or rugby role, but long term head coach? Not for me.

I can't go along with this successful tournament stuff either to be honest. Yeah we were **** 6N but looking at the draw we had and limping out to Argentina in the quarters wasn't anything special. I swear the constant reminding from Gatland about how we'd never get out the group has spun this into what a great tournament we had. I've always backed our players (most of them anyway) and still do, but think we're being left behind with the turgid rugby we're playing, and will continue to play under him. I'm probably being to harsh and I'll always back him and the team even if I'd rather have someone like Jamie Joseph, but the grand slam days are over, but maybe they were over no matter who we appointed.

 

[ncurd]

I can't go along with this successful tournament stuff either to be honest. Yeah we were **** 6N but looking at the draw we had and limping out to Argentina in the quarters wasn't anything special.

Honestly it feel like you guys underperformed, got the rub of the green against Fiji. Beat a severely underperforming Australia side and then lost to Argentina who England beat with 14 men. Okay you gave some other sides a kicking and looked okay but it should of been a semi-final against real opposition and putting a good show in there that Wales had a minimum target (England are the same target as well).

 

[Welsh Exile]

Honestly it feel like you guys underperformed, got the rub of the green against Fiji. Beat a severely underperforming Australia side and then lost to Argentina who England beat with 14 men. Okay you gave some other sides a kicking and looked okay but it should of been a semi-final against real opposition and putting a good show in there that Wales had a minimum target (England are the same target as well).

I think we did what we do well for most of the game against Fiji and all of Australia, though as you rightly point out a severely under performing one, but most definitely underperformed in the quarters, which was when it really mattered.

Really, though, the point is I can grant all you said (and I don't really think anything you say is that off the mark) but, like England, we're never troubling a top 4 side. I don't really care about a semi to be honest, we've done that 2 out of the previous 3 world cups we should be aiming high other wise what's the point.

But yeah, can't disagree with your general point that it feels like we've underperformed.

 

[SG59_]

Like England, I think the issues are above the manager. The WRU and RFU really needs to sort out the game there and just what are they doing at club level.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Confirmed taking us through to 2027. Said we have showed what level we can perform at or something which is worrying. The best level we have shown can beat a England or Argentina or maybe Scotland on any given day but is losing 99 times out of 100 against anything the top 4 are doing.

 

[ncurd]

I think we did what we do well for most of the game against Fiji and all of Australia, though as you rightly point out a severely under performing one, but most definitely underperformed in the quarters, which was when it really mattered.

Really, though, the point is I can grant all you said (and I don't really think anything you say is that off the mark) but, like England, we're never troubling a top 4 side. I don't really care about a semi to be honest, we've done that 2 out of the previous 3 world cups we should be aiming high other wise what's the point.

But yeah, can't disagree with your general point that it feels like we've underperformed.

A semi should be the minimum target for 9 sides (TRC+6 Nations-Italy) but this tournament specifically about getting that far is about going up against top 4 opposition and competing. Thats Wales/England issue they aren't competing at that level, Wales didn't even get to measure against that yardstick. But we're mostly in agreement.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Gatland says we need to develop 10s and 15s which I agree with (which is also why I would've taken Ioan Lloyd and Tom Rogers to this World Cup instead of Halfpenny and Anscombe) but very worrying that he doesn't appear to see any gaping holes at 3 and in the second row.

Now obviously for me, as I've saying for ages, the second row would be less of a problem as I'd be saying to Tshiunza at Wales, for the foreseeable, you're going to be a lock who can play 6 rather than the other way round so then at least we'd have Rowlands, Tshiunza, Jenkins and Rhys Davies coming through with Adam Beard as a back up, that is something we can work with but considering Tshiunza isn't being considered a lock at all we're left with the other 3 with Beard being one of the first names on the team sheet even though apparently his main point of difference is our lineout which is working brilliantly.

But 3 is a massive problem. I would say props or front row in general is where I want to see a half dozen or so kids coming through but I just don't see it. I think Gatland even said 8 as another position we need depth and hasn't even touched on the front row. As an aside, on the 8 front, I tip Morgan Morse to be involved at the next WC and in the Wales set up in the next 2 years (fingers crossed)

I generally don't worry about Wales developing back 3 athletes. We tend to do well on that front. I also don't tend to worry about developing back row players either. I get the worry at 10 but again I'm far less worried about that than I am the other areas I've mentioned. Luckily for Wales I'm just a random nobody who can't tell his arse from his elbow but it seems obvious to me looking in from the outside.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Not that anyone cares but the "squad" which is really a matchday 23 for the Ba Ba's match has been announced.

Forwards

Corey Domachowski, Elliot Dee, Dewi Lake, Nicky Smith, Keiron Assiratti, Leon Brown, Adam Beard, Ben Carter, Teddy Williams, Dan Lydiate, Jac Morgan (Captain), Taine Plumtree, Aaron Wainwright.

Backs
Kieran Hardy, Tomos Williams, Sam Costelow, Cai Evans, Mason Grady, George North, Johnny Williams, Rio Dyer, Leigh Halfpenny, Tom Rogers

 

[Welsh Exile]

So something like:

1. Domachowski
2. Lake
3. Brown
4. Beard
5. Carter
6. Plumtree
7. Morgan
8. Wainwright
9. Williams
10. Costelow
11. Dyer
12. Williams
13. Grady
14. Rogers
15. Halfpenny

16. Dee
17. Smith
18. Assiratti
19. Teddy Williams
20. Lydiate
21. Hardy
22. Evans
23. North

 

[TRF_Olyy]

"We need to look at new fullbacks"
"Hmm, what about that young whippernsapper Halfpenny?"

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I feel like Gatland + Biggar pose a natural ceiling to what this team can do. They've both been top servants to Welsh rugby but time for something new? Olyy mentioned 1/2p but also Dan Lydiate - granted he wasn't a starter in the tournament but that selection has no future.

Like all the other home nations besides Ireland, Wales look well stocked in some areas (notably back-row), but short in others.

 

[General Melchett]

I wonder if the decision to keep Gatland is based on:

1. Finances. Him not failing to get out of the group which meant the clause to get rid of him couldn't be activated. Can the WRU afford to pay him off and hire a new HC?
2. Lack of alternatives. Jamie Joseph was mentioned but I feel his stock has dropped since 2019 given Japan's recent form and failure to get out of the group.

The coach I would want is Joe Schmidt but I doubt he would leave NZ given he has already stated he moved back there for family reasons.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I wonder if the decision to keep Gatland is based on:

1. Finances. Him not failing to get out of the group which meant the clause to get rid of him couldn't be activated. Can the WRU afford to pay him off and hire a new HC?
2. Lack of alternatives. Jamie Joseph was mentioned but I feel his stock has dropped since 2019 given Japan's recent form and failure to get out of the group.

The coach I would want is Joe Schmidt but I doubt he would leave NZ given he has already stated he moved back there for family reasons.

It's probably a bit of both to be honest. Walker was talking Gatland up so much prior to the tournament that I doubt even a group stage exit would've led to Gatland getting sacked (though the clause was mentioned by Gatland)

The main reason I think of Joseph is because he's used to playing a system that doesn't revolve around a super strong front 5 and plays a brand of rugby I like but I agree his stock is down. I actually had no clue what he's up to and just looked and it seems he's taken up a position at the Highlanders but I'm sure we could've tempted him. I'd take Pat Lam as well (and he's said he'd love to coach us) but as others have told me on here he's on big wages so would refer to your point 1.

It's all moot anyway. I'll back Gatland as always but definitely going to be a tricky couple of years coming up for sure.

 

[General Melchett]

It's probably a bit of both to be honest. Walker was talking Gatland up so much prior to the tournament that I doubt even a group stage exit would've led to Gatland getting sacked (though the clause was mentioned by Gatland)

The main reason I think of Joseph is because he's used to playing a system that doesn't revolve around a super strong front 5 and plays a brand of rugby I like but I agree his stock is down. I actually had no clue what he's up to and just looked and it seems he's taken up a position at the Highlanders but I'm sure we could've tempted him. I'd take Pat Lam as well (and he's said he'd love to coach us) but as others have told me on here he's on big wages so would refer to your point 1.

It's all moot anyway. I'll back Gatland as always but definitely going to be a tricky couple of years coming up for sure.

Dave Rennie is another possibility. I think he was interviewed for the job previously but lost out to Pivac?

At least we know Gatland will ruffle a few feathers (mostly opposition fans/coaches/players) with his pre/post match pressers which should be entertaining. Hopefully his contract with Wales doesn't include release clause for the Lions because by thunder someone else (with higher stock) deserves a shot. Step forward Andrew Farrell.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Dave Rennie is another possibility. I think he was interviewed for the job previously but lost out to Pivac?

At least we know Gatland will ruffle a few feathers (mostly opposition fans/coaches/players) with his pre/post match pressers which should be entertaining. Hopefully his contract with Wales doesn't include release clause for the Lions because by thunder someone else (with higher stock) deserves a shot. Step forward Andrew Farrell.

Yeah I would've been very happy with Rennie. Rassie for the lols as well but isn't he going to Ireland in some capacity? I'd happily roll the dice on any young up and comer like ROG to be honest. Or if we were looking to maintain a bit of an old vibe then move Gatland upstairs and throw some money at Edwards.

Surely there is no way Gatland gets another Lions gig, not because he's been a bad coach or anything but I mean, not only is his time up, but when you've got Farrell doing what's he's doing it's a no brainier. On current form, though, you could just send the players over to Australia with no coaches and they'd still beat Australia 3-0.

 

[General Melchett]

Yeah I'd be very happy with Rennie. Rassie for the lols as well but isn't he going to Ireland in some capacity? I'd happily roll the dice on any young up and comer like ROG to be honest. Or if we were looking to maintain a bit of an old vibe then move Gatland upstairs and throw some money at Edwards.

Surely there is no way Gatland gets another Lions gig, not because he's been a bad coach or anything but I mean, not only is his time up, but when you've got Farrell doing what's he's doing it's a no brainier. On current form, though, you could just send the players over to Australia with no coaches and they'd still beat Australia 3-0.

Owen Farrell as Lions head coach and tour captain. That's one hell of a handicap!

I heard about the Rassie to Ireland and Faz snr to England rumours but not sure how much is in that. Nienabar obvs going to Leinster but not sure about Ireland. I don't see Faz snr going anywhere soon. He'd be mad to leave that set up and conveyor belt of talent.

I'd like to see Rassie replace Jones as Australia HC which might make the Lions tour more interesting!

 

[Welsh Exile]

Hate his picks at 10 but can understand them. Basham has been playing well but not surprised he's not in either. Shame Jenkins is injured but interested to see how this Freddie Thomas goes, can't be worse than Beard.

Forwards: Nicky Smith, Gareth Thomas, Kemsley Mathias, Ryan Elias, Dewi Lake, Evan Lloyd, Henry Thomas, Keiron Assiratti, Archie Griffin, Freddie Thomas, Christ Tshiunza, Ben Carter, Will Rowlands, Adam Beard, Taine Plumtree, James Botham, Jac Morgan, Tommy Reffell, Aaron Wainwright.

Backs: Tomos Williams, Rhodri Williams, Ellis Bevan, Sam Costelow, Gareth Anscombe, Ben Thomas, Nick Tompkins, Max Llewellyn, Eddie James, Owen Watkin, Mason Grady, Blair Murray, Rio Dyer, Josh Hathaway, Tom Rogers, Cameron Winnett.

 

[dullonien]

Hate his picks at 10 but can understand them. Basham has been playing well but not surprised he's not in either. Shame Jenkins is injured but interested to see how this Freddie Thomas goes, can't be worse than Beard.

Forwards: Nicky Smith, Gareth Thomas, Kemsley Mathias, Ryan Elias, Dewi Lake, Evan Lloyd, Henry Thomas, Keiron Assiratti, Archie Griffin, Freddie Thomas, Christ Tshiunza, Ben Carter, Will Rowlands, Adam Beard, Taine Plumtree, James Botham, Jac Morgan, Tommy Reffell, Aaron Wainwright.

Backs: Tomos Williams, Rhodri Williams, Ellis Bevan, Sam Costelow, Gareth Anscombe, Ben Thomas, Nick Tompkins, Max Llewellyn, Eddie James, Owen Watkin, Mason Grady, Blair Murray, Rio Dyer, Josh Hathaway, Tom Rogers, Cameron Winnett.

This is a better squad than many of his recent ones, but there's always room for improvement .

Quite happy with the front 5, bar Beard, but he was always going to be included for whatever reason, so there we go. I also don't understand why Gareth Thomas is everyone's default first choice, he excels at nothing in particular. The Ospreys are really missing Smith, and that shouldn't be the case when you have Wales' first choice loosehead to select in his place!

In the backrow, I do like Botham, but he's not been at his best rhis season, so I would have gone with Basham, or even Lewis-Hughes, but relatively minor issue. Am I the only one that doesn't particularly rate Reffell as well? A few years ago he was a great destructive jackling 7, but there's very little opportunity in the modern game for players like him. Jackling almost never rewarded as refs find any excuse to penalise the defending side. There are better all round alternatives, such as Basham imo.

I don't quite get Rhodri Williams' selection at 9 either. He's rarely been given an opportunity, yet with others pressing, such as Morgan-Williams and Rhodri making too many errors of late (he was poor on the weekend v Benneton); yet now is when Gats decides to pick him? Maybe he wants his experience with the young Bevan also there.

Scarlets have been playing better recently since dropping Costellow to the bench and playing Lloyd at 10, so what does Gats do? Pick ******* Costellow! Don't get this one at all. I'd have Dan Evans ahead of Costellow too, maybe Sheedy too, although his defense this season is way, way below par.

Hopefully Gats uses Ben Thomas at 12 alongside Max Llewellyn and Grady on the wing. Still don't see what Watkin and to a lesser degree, Tompkins offer. Johnny Williams may have been a better bet. Eddie James is an interesting one though, I really do like the look of him. I'm trying to remember if he's played 13 before, or is he only a 12?

Back 3 is fine with me. I probably wouldn't be starting Dyer atm. I can never fault his effort, but he's just struggling with errors slipping into his game. I know Grady isn't exacrly setting the world alight either, but maybe worth persevering with him a little more to see if he can make a breakthrough.

For me, I'd like ro see the following 23:

Smith, Lake (c), Griffin
Rowlands, Tshiunza
Plumtree, Wainwright, Morgan

Tomos Williams, Anscombe
Ben Thomas, Llewellyn
Grady, Winnett, Rogers

Lloyd, Mathias, Assiratti, Thomas, Botham, Bevan, James, Murray

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Am I the only one that doesn't particularly rate Reffell as well? A few years ago he was a great destructive jackling 7, but there's very little opportunity in the modern game for players like him. Jackling almost never rewarded as refs find any excuse to penalise the defending side.

I'm a saints fan and have no love for tigers players but this can't be further from the truth. Reffell is still a menace at the breakdown and has loads of opportunity to jackle and while players don't release as much he's great at getting a penalty for their team. He's a brilliant player.

The only thing with him being a traditional 7, is you will need your 6 and 8 to be more traditional to balance the back row.

 

[Welsh Exile]

This is a better squad than many of his recent ones, but there's always room for improvement .

Quite happy with the front 5, bar Beard, but he was always going to be included for whatever reason, so there we go. I also don't understand why Gareth Thomas is everyone's default first choice, he excels at nothing in particular. The Ospreys are really missing Smith, and that shouldn't be the case when you have Wales' first choice loosehead to select in his place!

In the backrow, I do like Botham, but he's not been at his best rhis season, so I would have gone with Basham, or even Lewis-Hughes, but relatively minor issue. Am I the only one that doesn't particularly rate Reffell as well? A few years ago he was a great destructive jackling 7, but there's very little opportunity in the modern game for players like him. Jackling almost never rewarded as refs find any excuse to penalise the defending side. There are better all round alternatives, such as Basham imo.

I don't quite get Rhodri Williams' selection at 9 either. He's rarely been given an opportunity, yet with others pressing, such as Morgan-Williams and Rhodri making too many errors of late (he was poor on the weekend v Benneton); yet now is when Gats decides to pick him? Maybe he wants his experience with the young Bevan also there.

Scarlets have been playing better recently since dropping Costellow to the bench and playing Lloyd at 10, so what does Gats do? Pick ******* Costellow! Don't get this one at all. I'd have Dan Evans ahead of Costellow too, maybe Sheedy too, although his defense this season is way, way below par.

Hopefully Gats uses Ben Thomas at 12 alongside Max Llewellyn and Grady on the wing. Still don't see what Watkin and to a lesser degree, Tompkins offer. Johnny Williams may have been a better bet. Eddie James is an interesting one though, I really do like the look of him. I'm trying to remember if he's played 13 before, or is he only a 12?

Back 3 is fine with me. I probably wouldn't be starting Dyer atm. I can never fault his effort, but he's just struggling with errors slipping into his game. I know Grady isn't exacrly setting the world alight either, but maybe worth persevering with him a little more to see if he can make a breakthrough.

For me, I'd like ro see the following 23:

Smith, Lake (c), Griffin
Rowlands, Tshiunza
Plumtree, Wainwright, Morgan

Tomos Williams, Anscombe
Ben Thomas, Llewellyn
Grady, Winnett, Rogers

Lloyd, Mathias, Assiratti, Thomas, Botham, Bevan, James, Murray

Yeah Lloyd has played well for the Scarlets setting up 2 tries in separate games either by breaking a line or doing an out the back offload, he can make things happen and has objectively been the best performing 10 in wales imo.