Wales (The Gatland returns thread)

[Welsh Exile]

Freddie Thomas. Born in England, England youth teams, plays in the English league, qualifies via grandparent

Never heard the end Feyi Waboso when he picked by to play for England for about 3 months.

GrandparentS. 3 out of 4. Quite a lot, no?

Feyi Waboso would be more similar to Tompkins. Except even then, one of the reasons why the Feyi Waboso thing got traction was 2 months before joining England he said it was his dream to play for Wales.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Gatland is in danger of tarnishing his Welsh legacy if he doesn't stage a massive turnaround.

I wouldn't have brought him back after the poor coaching jobs in NZ and on the Lions tour.

Gatland was clearly a good coach, but where is he trying to take his team? It's not 2019 anymore. The game has changed and I don't see any plan on where this team is going.

Happy to pop back in within a few years and eat some humble pie, but Gatland looks past it.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm not bothered about Thomas - but how much research was required for fans to know much about him?

"Plays in England, for an English club, recognise him from playing for England at age-grade, and a quick look on wiki says he was born in England"
Turn that around, for a Welsh born player, who played age-grade for Wales, and every club listed is Welsh, including current club - are you seriously suggesting there'd be no claims of poaching?

My impression was that Tommi was just pointing out the double standard, rather than actually complaining about the "poach"

For me personally, the double standard exists - it can be mildly annoying.
Freddie Thomas has chosen Wales - I don't particularly care.

Personally, it's not a poach unless it's either purely residential qualification (and only newly qualified) or the player was realistically going to receive a call-up for their "home" nation, who just got beaten to the punch. Even then, they're not all poaches.

 

[TommiG88]

I'm not bothered about Thomas - but how much research was required for fans to know much about him?

"Plays in England, for an English club, recognise him from playing for England at age-grade, and a quick look on wiki says he was born in England"
Turn that around, for a Welsh born player, who played age-grade for Wales, and every club listed is Welsh, including current club - are you seriously suggesting there'd be no claims of poaching?

My impression was that Tommi was just pointing out the double standard, rather than actually complaining about the "poach"

For me personally, the double standard exists - it can be mildly annoying.
Freddie Thomas has chosen Wales - I don't particularly care.

Oh yeah, I don't really care. I just like prodding Exile every so often. I get lonely outside of the 6 nations

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm not bothered about Thomas - but how much research was required for fans to know much about him?

"Plays in England, for an English club, recognise him from playing for England at age-grade, and a quick look on wiki says he was born in England"
Turn that around, for a Welsh born player, who played age-grade for Wales, and every club listed is Welsh, including current club - are you seriously suggesting there'd be no claims of poaching?

My impression was that Tommi was just pointing out the double standard, rather than actually complaining about the "poach"

For me personally, the double standard exists - it can be mildly annoying.
Freddie Thomas has chosen Wales - I don't particularly care.

Personally, it's not a poach unless it's either purely residential qualification (and only newly qualified) or the player was realistically going to receive a call-up for their "home" nation, who just got beaten to the punch. Even then, they're not all poaches.

For me it's a big difference when you look at upbringing and the personal motivation/ambition of the player. I think it's a fair question to ask well if he was offered a place in the England set up would his decision be the same? We all know that for Tompkins, that answer would've been a resounding no as I think deep down, even now, he doesn't really consider himself Welsh. I don't think it applies for you Freddie Thomas's who's considered himself Welsh since he was a child and has dreamed of playing for wales. I don't think "poach" is the right word to use there but I accept others will be more strict in their definition to simply mean take a player from another area but I think it's more nuanced than that.

I agree that people will have many double standards about anything but what the media says or Dai down the pub is not as important to me but it's a pretty nebulous thing we're talking about to be fair.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I tell you a good example is that Randall scrum half. I don't think anyone was really that bothered in wales as even though he was a product of Welsh grassroots rugby or whatever he always considered himself English and his parents were English.

 

[TommiG88]

I tell you a good example is that Randall scrum half. I don't think anyone was really that bothered in wales as even though he was a product of Welsh grassroots rugby or whatever he always considered himself English and his parents were English.

Tell them to a person I worked with. Still seething to this day that Randall was stolen from Wales

I just chuckle obviously

 

[Which Tyler]

For me it's a big difference when you look at upbringing and the personal motivation/ambition of the player. I think it's a fair question to ask well if he was offered a place in the England set up would his decision be the same? We all know that for Tompkins, that answer would've been a resounding no as I think deep down, even now, he doesn't really consider himself Welsh. I don't think it applies for you Freddie Thomas's who's considered himself Welsh since he was a child and has dreamed of playing for wales. I don't think "poach" is the right word to use there but I accept others will be more strict in their definition to simply mean take a player from another area but I think it's more nuanced than that.

I agree that people will have many double standards about anything but what the media says or Dai down the pub is not as important to me but it's a pretty nebulous thing we're talking about to be fair.

Absolutely - but as fans, we very rarely get to know any of that stuff; and even in this case where it does seem to be relatively easy to access it - you can't really blame anyone for not finding it anyway.

Either way, I think we're all agreed that A] Freddie Thomas isn't a poach, and B] the media in this country is truly terrible

 

[Welsh Exile]

Gatland is in danger of tarnishing his Welsh legacy if he doesn't stage a massive turnaround.

I wouldn't have brought him back after the poor coaching jobs in NZ and on the Lions tour.

Gatland was clearly a good coach, but where is he trying to take his team? It's not 2019 anymore. The game has changed and I don't see any plan on where this team is going.

Happy to pop back in within a few years and eat some humble pie, but Gatland looks past it.

I liked what the original idea was supposed to be (whether it was true or not I'm not sure) but it made total sense to bring Gatland in for the WC on a short term basis then move him upstairs (like they did at the Chiefs) to oversee the regional game in Wales. At which point, after the WC, we could've looked properly for a younger, more progressive coach to take the reins for the next WC. But here we are whether we like it or not.

 

[Reiser99]

I personally don't care if he wants to represent Wales. My issue still is very young players who are definitely not ready for international rugby, being picked just to cap them.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I personally don't care if he wants to represent Wales. My issue still is very young players who are definitely not ready for international rugby, being picked just to cap them.

People said this about Tshiunza and it was ********. I don't think this is one of those either. We're clearly in a rebuild number one, and number 2 it's an area where we don't naturally produce athletes in. Considering those 2 facts it's hardly surprising we're capping an athlete of his size who's performing well in the premiership.

I'd also add, that while the natural inclination for any coach must be to protect young players, sometimes you can have a young player that is very good, the best way to develop them is throwing them in and you don't know that until you do it.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

"I've always seen myself as being Welsh," he tells WalesOnline. "When I was growing up I felt a lot prouder to be Welsh than English.

My dad's parents are both from Swansea while my grandmother on my mother's side is also Welsh. We have a family house in north-west Wales in Dolgellau which I visit as often as I can.

"My dad used to regularly take me to watch Wales play at the Principality Stadium. There were no split loyalties when Wales played England in the Six Nations. I was one of only two Welsh boys in my school

"When Wales were winning between 2011-13 I was lapping it up, especially in 2013 when they stuffed England 30-3. I remember coming into school the next day where we had rugby training wearing my red underskin with Welsh things on it.


Yes, it's definitely something I'd consider," said Thomas when asked if he'd consider signing for one of Wales' four professional clubs. "Whenever I speak to my dad to get his thoughts he always says he wants me to live in Wales and understand the culture before I played for Wales.

"It's definitely something I'd have a look at. I wouldn't turn it down if the right opportunity came up."

As far as I can see this was published as recently as 1st September which the more cynical among you might see as touting for selection having accepted he wouldn't make the grade with England. Did any similar views emerge earlier? I of course believe that it was an expression of genuine long held views.

I am indifferent to this particular situation but something's screwed when an English club supplies 5 players to a Welsh squad and none to a 45 (including unavailables) man England squad.

 

[Welsh Exile]

As far as I can see this was published as recently as 1st September which the more cynical among you might see as touting for selection having accepted he wouldn't make the grade with England. Did any similar views emerge earlier? I of course believe that it was an expression of genuine long held views.

I am indifferent to this particular situation but something's screwed when an English club supplies 5 players to a Welsh squad and none to a 45 (including unavailables) man England squad.

I don't think there are (though I haven't had a proper look) but my guess would be that's due to his age and status in the game. No one cares about who a 19/20 year old (who's not tearing it up) wants to play for but naturally they do as soon as they start making a name for themselves.

Like you, I think these are his genuine views. You don't make up all the stuff about wearing wales tops underneath your PE kit or whatever if you're going to lie. Also not hard to believe with his dad being Welsh and his mum also being half Welsh. I think you make a fair point though and I wouldn't totally rule out the cynical take.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The grandparent rule is BS on its own though.

It reminds me of that mate that everyone's got, who supports England in the football and wales at rugby. Claims they are Welsh but never lived there, doesn't holiday there and doesn't really like the county but needs that 'I'm Welsh' to stand out from their mates at 5 a side football on a Wednesday night.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The grandparent rule is BS on its own though.

It reminds me of that mate that everyone's got, who supports England in the football and wales at rugby. Claims they are Welsh but never lived there, doesn't holiday there and doesn't really like the county but needs that 'I'm Welsh' to stand out from their mates at 5 a side football on a Wednesday night.

It depends. You could have a Tompkins type situation where it's 1 grandparent and you know that's where the links to whatever country start and finish. But then you might have a player who's only got 1 grandparent but spent a lot of time in that country or was raised a lot by that 1 grandparent. Or you could have 3 or 4 grandparent's but raised in another country but naturally due to the majority of your grandparents being from another country your going to be influenced a lot more by that culture so it really depends at the end of the day.

 

[Which Tyler]

What I find bullshit, is people telling other people how they should feel.


It's perfectly possible to feel that you're a certain nationality but only have 1 grandparent actually from there (or even 0 grandparents, especially in border regions).
Equally, it's perfectly possible to NOT feel that you're a certain nationality, despite being born there and both your parents being born there.

Now, for international recognition, you need a hard and fast rule, and it needs to be consistent. There will always be individuals who are hard done by, or for whom it feels wrong.
Tough.

It then needs to be decided which is comparatively more important - The most likely options being:
A] Represent the country the player feels the strongest emotional attachment for
B] Represent a country the player feel a genuine and significant emotional attachment for - even if not the single greatest attachment
C] Represent the country that played the biggest role in developing them as a player
D] Represent a country that played a genuine and significant role in developing them as a player - even if not the single greatest role

Anyone claiming that there is a clear an obvious answer to that question is simply wrong, it can be their personal opinion, but that doesn't give them the right to overrule other people's personal opinions.

Personally, I would prefer C above, but I appreciate that people are complicated, and that the others are also valid, so compromise to D.

If I were re-writing the eligibility rules from scratch, I'd probably base it purely on residency: 8 years living in a country to be eligible (no need to be contiguous years); with location between the ages of 8 and 18 counting double.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Looks like Jarrod Evans had another good game for Quins. Another promising 10s career that successive managers have ruined. It's alright, though, we're going to start a crocked 33 year old next week. Building for the future.

 

[dullonien]

The promising thing is that there's an in-form side for Gatland to select this Autumn. Hell, even Beard had a decent game!

He just needs to pick them now.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The promising thing is that there's an in-form side for Gatland to select this Autumn. Hell, even Beard had a decent game!

He just needs to pick them now.

My prediction

Thomas Lake Griffin
Rowlands Beard
Plumtree Morgan
Wainwright

Tomos
Anscombe
Grady
Thomas
Watkin
Dyer
Winnett

TH is anyone's guess and still questions marks over 6, he might go with Tshiunza (I hope he does) but reckon he likes Plumtree. Not 100% on 13 either but can't see it being to different to that injuries permitting.

 

[dullonien]

Not sure he can start with Griffin given that he's barely played due to illness. Henry Thomas has been good for Scarlets, so he starts for me.

I'm more than happy with plumtree at 6, he needs to cut out the odd pen / silly decision here and there, but he otherwise offers everything you want from a modern 6. He's dynamic, great workrate, aggressive, and a good lineout option. Tshiunza's a lock for me, or a good versatile bench option.

I can accept Grady in the side (on the wing though), due to the ceiling he potentially has; but Dyer should certainly not be starting atm. His form has been poor for a while. One the the Scarlets boys for me needs to start.

At 13, hopefully not Watkin. He's been OK recently for Ospreys, but he just doesn't offer enough for me at international level. Llewellyn deserves a shot I think, either alongside Thomas (who's been consistently excellent, despite Cardiff's indifferent form), or James (who's developing extremely well). James could also slot in at 13, but probably needs testing for Scarlets first.