USA news & politics

[dirty harry]

None of us are. We’re just counting down the days till he’s gone.

Joking aside, not that I can remember much of last week let alone 10 years ago but I remember in 2016 being like most people and initially thinking it was a joke that Trump could ever be president but obviously as time went on it became apparent, at least to me, he had a chance of winning. But, you know what, when he was sworn in, even though I had never considered him a serious person and thought he would make a terrible president, I didn’t really buy into the whole “he’ll be a disaster for the whole world” thing. I thought that was a bit of scare mongering.

In reality, in 2016, I never in a million years would’ve thought he’d even do 10% of those things and definitely not Jan 6th. I don’t even think the scaremongering at the time thought it would be as bad as it has been.

The really depressing thing is he’s still got plenty of time left.

Its amazing to think of the long list of evilness he has eviled, hes gotten more popular with the American people...

I dont want to dissect the copy paste job above, because it will be obvious to anyone there will be a load of trashy mis truths in there, but as it come from someone who was just pedalling conspiracy theories im cautious to beleive any of it.

What is the 90% of stuff hes done thats so egregious you couldnt have envisiged it?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Its amazing to think of the long list of evilness he has eviled, hes gotten more popular with the American people...

I dont want to dissect the copy paste job above, because it will be obvious to anyone there will be a load of trashy mis truths in there, but as it come from someone who was just pedalling conspiracy theories im cautious to beleive any of it.

What is the 90% of stuff hes done thats so egregious you couldnt have envisiged it?

I said I didn’t expect 10% of it.

As I said in my original post. Jan 6th/fake elector plot is arguably the worst thing he’s done and that is something I never would’ve seen coming. If someone had said to me in 2016 that in 2020 Trump would try to stage a coup to overturn a legitimate election result I would’ve laughed it off.

 

[dirty harry]

I said I didn’t expect 10% of it.

As I said in my original post. Jan 6th/fake elector plot is arguably the worst thing he’s done and that is something I never would’ve seen coming. If someone had said to me in 2016 that in 2020 Trump would try to stage a coup to overturn a legitimate election result I would’ve laughed it off.

Id partially agree, its the worst thing hes done (so far) but I, as the Senate did wouldnt class it as a coup, and i can empathise why many thought it was not a legitimate election (hell i was in shock after going to bed certain of a Trump victory, and waking up to the ballot dump victory for Biden a few hours later lol). There is still some blurry details, and i disagree the Jan 6th protests were an insurrection, where outside of a handful of idiots most people were targetted for trespass of a building they were welcomed into. But we are mostly aligned on that issue, especially the underhanded senerar cajoling and stuff, i just have a slightly softer stance, i was more interested in the rest of the adominations he has performed?

I assume, you would not be in the camp of number 2 on the list, him mishandling a pandemic that cost the lives of half a million Americans? Thats a crazy take!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Its amazing to think of the long list of evilness he has eviled, hes gotten more popular with the American people...

I dont want to dissect the copy paste job above, because it will be obvious to anyone there will be a load of trashy mis truths in there, but as it come from someone who was just pedalling conspiracy theories im cautious to beleive any of it.

What is the 90% of stuff hes done thats so egregious you couldnt have envisiged it?

Just for once, stop making excuses and blowing it off by pretending it's normal. Just once.

You could knock 90% off that list and it would still be awful.

 

[dirty harry]

Just for once, stop making excuses and blowing it off by pretending it's normal. Just once.

You could knock 90% off that list and it would still be awful.

Except i dont make excuses, i put his actions into perspective, and add context, i just lack the hysteria you want from everyone on the thread.

After a decade of this, you continue, knowing it has made him more popular, you swallow every falsehood, and refuse to correct even the stupidest, or most malicious take against him, and this as absolutely cobtributed to Trump and Trump 2.0 and helped spark a British spin off.

The biggest wrapon that could have been weilded against Trump, and Europeans looking to mimic what hes acheived is the truth. He doesnt care about it, but sadly neither does anyone who opposes him, and now his words are just a tree in a forest of bullshit.

EVery time you lie, promote a falsehood, or dont counter a falsehood you legitimise him, thats a decision you make.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Id partially agree, its the worst thing hes done (so far) but I, as the Senate did wouldnt class it as a coup, and i can empathise why many thought it was not a legitimate election (hell i was in shock after going to bed certain of a Trump victory, and waking up to the ballot dump victory for Biden a few hours later lol). There is still some blurry details, and i disagree the Jan 6th protests were an insurrection, where outside of a handful of idiots most people were targetted for trespass of a building they were welcomed into. But we are mostly aligned on that issue, especially the underhanded senerar cajoling and stuff, i just have a slightly softer stance, i was more interested in the rest of the adominations he has performed?

I assume, you would not be in the camp of number 2 on the list, him mishandling a pandemic that cost the lives of half a million Americans? Thats a crazy take!

What is the general consensus amongst independent health institutions with regards to Trumps response?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Except i dont make excuses, i put his actions into perspective, and add context, i just lack the hysteria you want from everyone on the thread.

After a decade of this, you continue, knowing it has made him more popular, you swallow every falsehood, and refuse to correct even the stupidest, or most malicious take against him, and this as absolutely cobtributed to Trump and Trump 2.0 and helped spark a British spin off.

The biggest wrapon that could have been weilded against Trump, and Europeans looking to mimic what hes acheived is the truth. He doesnt care about it, but sadly neither does anyone who opposes him, and now his words are just a tree in a forest of bullshit.

EVery time you lie, promote a falsehood, or dont counter a falsehood you legitimise him, thats a decision you make.

You think popularity makes something right.

You kept denying he was as bad as people said yet look where we are.

You remind me of someone I knew who I told towards the end of Trump's first term that he would not accept the results and would not go quietly. I was told I was hysterical. Remind us what happened...

 

[dirty harry]

What is the general consensus amongst independent health institutions with regards to Trumps response?

Oh say your not...

Theres no such thing as independant health institutions when it came to COVID.

 

[dirty harry]

You think popularity makes something right.

You kept denying he was as bad as people said yet look where we are.

You remind me of someone I knew who I told towards the end of Trump's first term that he would not accept the results and would not go quietly. I was told I was hysterical. Remind us what happened...

It doesnt make him right, it make him win and become more powerful, and it spawns more of the same in Europe.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It doesnt make him right, it make him win and become more powerful, and it spawns more of the same in Europe.

So you don't believe in holding people to account if there is the possibility it might make them more popular? Is that really the hill you want to stick your flag on?

Ever think he didn't become more popular because of what people said but because of how he and his defenders were able to lie about it so shamelessly?

Because if you want to ignore what Trump did just because other people have then there is no discussion to be had. You know full well what he's doing is unprecedented. You know it's wrong, you know it's beyond what others have done, you know the bad precedent it sets to ignore it and you know pretending it's ok or it will go away is the mentality that got us here.

Trump is where he is not because he was persecuted, he's where he is because he and his allies are such shameless liars they have dragged things into a post truth era. You could not point out another era where the lies were so frequent, so brazen and so pathetic if you tried. THAT is why he got where he is.

The answer to that is to not then be quiet and let his lies and behaviour go completely unchallenged.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Oh say your not...

Theres no such thing as independant health institutions when it came to COVID.

Really? Every single research team at every university along with every countries own health authorities?

 

[dirty harry]

So you don't believe in holding people to account if there is the possibility it might make them more popular? Is that really the hill you want to stick your flag on?

Ever think he didn't become more popular because of what people said but because of how he and his defenders were able to lie about it so shamelessly?

Because if you want to ignore what Trump did just because other people have then there is no discussion to be had. You know full well what he's doing is unprecedented. You know it's wrong, you know it's beyond what others have done, you know the bad precedent it sets to ignore it and you know pretending it's ok or it will go away is the mentality that got us here.

Trump is where he is not because he was persecuted, he's where he is because he and his allies are such shameless liars they have dragged things into a post truth era. You could not point out another era where the lies were so frequent, so brazen and so pathetic if you tried. THAT is why he got where he is.

The answer to that is to not then be quiet and let his lies and behaviour go completely unchallenged.

Again, im going to need a srretch if we are going to dance around this much, at no point did you address my central point, that false claims and lies about him help him, and help muddy the waters, allowing him far more freedom and power with what he says and does.

All this is only unprecedented if youve only become interesred in politics since Trump, nothing he is doing hasnt been tried before, including regime change, mass deportations, pushing constitutional boundaries, increasing executive orders, resource allocations, hell even trying to purchase Greenland lol.

I can say easily that how Trump is going about aqcuiring Greenland is wrong, well to the degree it doesnt make sense to go this agressive this quickly, but lets not pretend the US hasnt tried to aqcuire it before, or purchased land before, or even threatened allied countries previously.

In times of peace, when the US was a stand alone super power its easy to be charitable, to have smooth relations etc... but its not the 90s anymore, and the US are and have always been capable and willing to throw their muscle around when needed.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Again, im going to need a srretch if we are going to dance around this much, at no point did you address my central point, that false claims and lies about him help him, and help muddy the waters, allowing him far more freedom and power with what he says and does.

All this is only unprecedented if youve only become interesred in politics since Trump, nothing he is doing hasnt been tried before, including regime change, mass deportations, pushing constitutional boundaries, increasing executive orders, resource allocations, hell even trying to purchase Greenland lol.

I can say easily that how Trump is going about aqcuiring Greenland is wrong, well to the degree it doesnt make sense to go this agressive this quickly, but lets not pretend the US hasnt tried to aqcuire it before, or purchased land before, or even threatened allied countries previously.

In times of peace, when the US was a stand alone super power its easy to be charitable, to have smooth relations etc... but its not the 90s anymore, and the US are and have always been capable and willing to throw their muscle around when needed.

The false claims about him are massively outweighed by both the true claims and the false claims he makes about others every day.

I've been following US politics and politics in general since the early 2000s. You're doing your usual trick or acting like all things in the same broad category are the same. The sort of mentality that treats a state sponsored murder of 1 individual the same as a state sponsored murder of 1 million because you boil them both down to state sponsored murder, therefore equal. You always ignore the degree and scale of what someone does.

You think it's the same? Find a comparable example.

 

[dirty harry]

Really? Every single research team at every university along with every countries own health authorities?

Yes, they all have different parameters, set agendas and reasoning, and all of them had differing contexts, and even flaws for 'dealing'with the pandemic.

Take the Lowry institute perfomance index, New Zealand and the USA were compared with a straight face. If you believe simple stats like deaths per 1000 apply evenly to a country like USA and New Zealand, then i have a course on the gender wage gap to sell you hahahaha (of course 20% higher than id sell it to your wife).

The fact is, Trump had many more hurdles than most other countries, certainly countries the USA's size, the constitution causes the US great difficulties in times like this, and when it comes to UN charters lol, and despite that, and despite being attacked for every move he managed to keep things stable, while enabling operation warp speed, that, if democrats words were to be beleived was rushed, over finded and under too much pressure.

Im not claiming Trump was perfect, or even great, certainly his messaging could have been much better, but he dealt with the pandemic as well as possible, leading up to an election that in reality should have been delayed, because both parties behaviours in the run up was disgusting. In no way, can anyone waith a srraight face, or a smidgeon of honesty claim he is responsible for 500k deaths and mishandling the pandemic, while not putting the next million deaths on Biden etc...

And BTW i gave Biden a lot of grace in managing the majority of the pandemic, i dont think he was terrible either (even though his honestly meter actually challenged Trumps lol)

 

[Welsh Exile]

Im not claiming Trump was perfect, or even great, certainly his messaging could have been much better, but he dealt with the pandemic as well as possible

This ain’t dealing with it as well as possible. As you say, his messaging and playling it down initially was poor and I don’t think it’s exactly a stretch to say that may have cost lives.

 

[dirty harry]

The false claims about him are massively outweighed by both the true claims and the false claims he makes about others every day.

I've been following US politics and politics in general since the early 2000s. You're doing your usual trick or acting like all things in the same broad category are the same. The sort of mentality that treats a state sponsored murder of 1 individual the same as a state sponsored murder of 1 million because you boil them both down to state sponsored murder, therefore equal. You always ignore the degree and scale of what someone does.

You think it's the same? Find a comparable example.

TO which instance?

Trying to buy Greenland? There has been many informal and formal discussions and offers over the decades!

To threatening allys, jesus over the last 60 years the US has threatened, well France and Germany regularly (thats a trend lol). Didnt Condalize Rice threaten to essebtially kick them out of NATO if they opposed the war?

Deportations? Trump is still only at about 50 to 60% of Obama isnt he? It sits at around 1.7 to 2 million is it?

Regime change? If you need examples of this you pay less attention than i thought!

And im not trying to insult you, but when you keep saying these things are unprecedented, i can only assume you mean youve never seen them before.

 

[Saintjay]

In times of peace, when the US was a stand alone super power its easy to be charitable, to have smooth relations etc... but its not the 90s anymore, and the US are and have always been capable and willing to throw their muscle around when needed.

The difference is in when every major combat situation and 'Throwing their muscle around" since the 90's. Involves the support and help of a number of countries he's just threatened with tariffs.

He's not throwing his weight around with China or Russia. He hasn't got the balls or is that stupid depending on your optics. It's coercion and he knows full well nobody is going to agree to support giving Greenland up. 75% of Americans don't agree with it either.

 

[dirty harry]

This ain’t dealing with it as well as possible. As you say, his messaging and playling it down initially was poor and I don’t think it’s exactly a stretch to say that may have cost lives.

Well it depends how you look at it, i think his messaging early on was meant to be cool, calm and soothing to a scared public, but came across as arrogant.

He did stop flights from China end of Jan before anyone else and was lambasted for over reacting and being racist because there was no evidence it was from China (i still cant beleieve the Dems fought the China origin battle for years after that).

He did hold a rally before lockdowns started which was probably a bad idea, and we heard that from the dems over and over, but they dont want to talk about Bidens, Sanders or Super Tuesday rallies at the same time, not to mention the summer of love.

Like i said, the level of politicking was ridiculous that year, there was nothing Trump could have done that wouldnt have been criticised, he acts early, hes criticised, he delays hes criticised, to pretend any other politician would have done any better, or worse is silly, and frankly i think 2020 will go down as the darkest time in recent US history, for all the politics over people decusions made by everyone involved.

But like i said, id give every nation leader some leeway in trying to deal with rhe pandemic, well except the scumbaggery ones like China, regardless of how many peer reviewed studies ranked Chinas response to the pandemic as one of the best lol!

 

[Welsh Exile]

Well it depends how you look at it, i think his messaging early on was meant to be cool, calm and soothing to a scared public, but came across as arrogant.

He did stop flights from China end of Jan before anyone else and was lambasted for over reacting and being racist because there was no evidence it was from China (i still cant beleieve the Dems fought the China origin battle for years after that).

He did hold a rally before lockdowns started which was probably a bad idea, and we heard that from the dems over and over, but they dont want to talk about Bidens, Sanders or Super Tuesday rallies at the same time, not to mention the summer of love.

Like i said, the level of politicking was ridiculous that year, there was nothing Trump could have done that wouldnt have been criticised, he acts early, hes criticised, he delays hes criticised, to pretend any other politician would have done any better, or worse is silly, and frankly i think 2020 will go down as the darkest time in recent US history, for all the politics over people decusions made by everyone involved.

But like i said, id give every nation leader some leeway in trying to deal with rhe pandemic, well except the scumbaggery ones like China, regardless of how many peer reviewed studies ranked Chinas response to the pandemic as one of the best lol!

I agree about giving leeway to leaders during covid. Not drink bleach leeway though.

 

[dirty harry]

The difference is in when every major combat situation and 'Throwing their muscle around" since the 90's. Involves the support and help of a number of countries he's just threatened with tariffs.

He's not throwing his weight around with China or Russia. He hasn't got the balls or is that stupid depending on your optics. It's coercion and he knows full well nobody is going to agree to support giving Greenland up. 75% of Americans don't agree with it either.

THats not accurate though is it, France and Germany were threatened in 2003 for resisting the urge to invade with the US, infact didnt John Kerry make the claim Bush had weakened the UN, and was trying to coerce France and Germany into a war. Biden said it was the end of NATO (not a direct quote lol).

Also he is absolutely throwing his weight around with Russia, taking their ships out of the water, srealing their arms market in the gulf, taking up to 50 billion of investment from Venezuela, arguably elongating the Ukrainian war, increasing NATO funding and readiness, not to mention sanctions etc... the idea Trump isnt brave enough is silly, hes absolutely brave / ego driven / stupid enough.

I think Chinas a different story, for all the little pushing hes done there he seems to have found significant pushback enough to not want to go further.

I would also add, every republican and democray politician is probably in the 25% regardless of what they say openly, they want those resources as much as Trump does.