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dirty harry said:
Ok hang on, if im going to be keeping up with this much pivoting at least let me stretch...

ICE absolutely fit the term 'Federal police force' im not sure what you think the words law enforcement or police mean?

ICE agents, as youve said FBI do have powers to arrest those who break the law in their presence. Under US code, if they were to be on the street either executing orders or not, and they see you committing a crime, they absolutely can arresst you for it. Youre massively misinformed mate.

None of this is besides the point, you making the claim "ICE are not law enforcement, they aren't supposed to be getting involved unless it relates to someone's immigration status or at the request of local law enforcement" is categorically false. They absolutely are law enforcement, and not only can they get involved in any criminal activity, they have a legal responsibility to do so depending on the severity of the crime.

I cqn agree there wasnt justification to shoot Good, absolutely there wasnt IMO (what doni know lol) but to engage her they were absolutelty valid in doing so, based on the evidence ive seen of her car parked sideways blocking the road, her non complying with orders, statements that she purposefully made her way to the situation etc.. now if that changes, and it turns out say she got stuck in the snow while 3 point turning im front of ICE agents, she accidentally run into afyer the school run, and had a hearing defect etc, then ill change my opinion, like a reasonable rational purson.
Click to expand...
No pivoting, I've repeated myself over and over. ICE have a limited jurisdiction. They are federal officer but they are NOT a federal police force, ie it's not their job to do the role of local and state police forces nor do they have the same powers to do so. ICE officers are limited in their scope of how they can justifiably detain and arrest people. Police can detain people on suspicion a crime has been committed, ICE cannot unless it relates to the immigration status of the person in question.

A local cop can arrest someone in a different area if it literally happens right in front of them but they don't have the authority to start enforcing that beyond their jurisdiction without the approval of the local law enforcement who actually covers the area, the except being in pursuit cases. I've read a source that said, although her car was across the road, she had let ICE vehicles through previously.

It is besides the point, the ICE resorted to lethal force and yet have provided no evidence of exactly how their operations were being impeded.

Look at this, although no doubt you will do your usual trick of watching 5 seconds and arbitrarily deciding you don't like the tone and discounting it:
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
No pivoting, I've repeated myself over and over. ICE have a limited jurisdiction. They are federal officer but they are NOT a federal police force, ie it's not their job to do the role of local and state police forces nor do they have the same powers to do so. ICE officers are limited in their scope of how they can justifiably detain and arrest people. Police can detain people on suspicion a crime has been committed, ICE cannot unless it relates to the immigration status of the person in question.

A local cop can arrest someone in a different area if it literally happens right in front of them but they don't have the authority to start enforcing that beyond their jurisdiction without the approval of the local law enforcement who actually covers the area, the except being in pursuit cases. I've read a source that said, although her car was across the road, she had let ICE vehicles through previously.

It is besides the point, the ICE resorted to lethal force and yet have provided no evidence of exactly how their operations were being impeded.

Look at this, although no doubt you will do your usual trick of watching 5 seconds and arbitrarily deciding you don't like the tone and discounting it:
Click to expand...


So finally youve read up... but they absolutely are a federal police force, they just only have certain juristictions, but note they can absolutely make non immigration arrests when they come across crimes.

It isnt besides the point this whole discussion stemmed from you making the claim they were not suppoesed to get involved with Good as she isnt a request from local or an immigration issue, and thats a false statement, they absokutely have the right, and in some cases legal responsibility to intervene in any crimimal behaviour.

Now id love to see the source that she had let some ICE agents through, however that statement suggests she had absolutely found herself blocking agents, its whethwr that was deliberate or unintentional, and well the fact that she was there, with her wife, who was protesting kerbside, after the school run leads me to believe she was there intentionally to disrupt. Maybe thats not right, but the evidence leans that way currently.

But to be clear, your not suggesting that blocking ICE while on operations is a good idea, you wouldnt storm a court room and jump into the middle of an arrest would you?

I thought that was a quick clip lol, ill have a watch in a bit while i get my coffee, but before i do my view is that pulling his gun, and maybe firing while in front of the car as it comes towards him could be deemed legal, those 2nd 2 shots through the side window though, if shooting someone in the back while fleeing from you isnt self defence, shooting a driver as they flea from you is the same, i personally think hes ******, and not totally unlike Chauvin, will have to condend with huge political pressure wanting a political scalp with his vilification.
 
dirty harry said:
So finally youve read up... but they absolutely are a federal police force, they just only have certain juristictions, but note they can absolutely make non immigration arrests when they come across crimes.

It isnt besides the point this whole discussion stemmed from you making the claim they were not suppoesed to get involved with Good as she isnt a request from local or an immigration issue, and thats a false statement, they absokutely have the right, and in some cases legal responsibility to intervene in any crimimal behaviour.

Now id love to see the source that she had let some ICE agents through, however that statement suggests she had absolutely found herself blocking agents, its whethwr that was deliberate or unintentional, and well the fact that she was there, with her wife, who was protesting kerbside, after the school run leads me to believe she was there intentionally to disrupt. Maybe thats not right, but the evidence leans that way currently.

But to be clear, your not suggesting that blocking ICE while on operations is a good idea, you wouldnt storm a court room and jump into the middle of an arrest would you?

I thought that was a quick clip lol, ill have a watch in a bit while i get my coffee, but before i do my view is that pulling his gun, and maybe firing while in front of the car as it comes towards him could be deemed legal, those 2nd 2 shots through the side window though, if shooting someone in the back while fleeing from you isnt self defence, shooting a driver as they flea from you is the same, i personally think hes ******, and not totally unlike Chauvin, will have to condend with huge political pressure wanting a political scalp with his vilification.
Click to expand...
Your inability to read =/= me not reading up. At this moment the most that can be said of suppose criminal behaviour is her car across the road. At the start of the footage you can see a car had just driven past her and police normally don't simply walk up and immediately start trying to get someone out of a vehicle, yet ICE did just that. If there is no evidence for criminal behaviour and it isn't interfering with them then no, they have no authority to get involved.

www.theguardian.com

Trump administration unleashes torrent of untruths after woman shot dead by ICE

Victim-blaming began almost as soon as Renee Nicole Good was killed – we examine the claims and the reality
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

No I'm not suggesting blocking them is a good idea, but I'd suggest shooting first and asking questions later is an even worse idea by a very wide margin.

A summary of a key point in the video is that police guidance states that an officer shouldn't put themself in a position in which lethal force becomes inevitable. Part of that is you don't stand in front of the car of a suspect who could be violent. They either ignored that guidance or more likely didn't think she was a violent threat, contradicting their claims about her. Lethal force also is not to be used merely to stop a suspect escaping.

The ICE agent may have thought she was driving at him with intent to harm but all evidence shows she was driving to get away and was steering the car away from him. The lies being spouted by the administration to justify killing is terrible and part of a broader American trend of not holding cops or agents accountable for their use of lethal force. Qualified immunity essentially protects them right up to committing straight up murder.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
Your inability to read =/= me not reading up. At this moment the most that can be said of suppose criminal behaviour is her car across the road. At the start of the footage you can see a car had just driven past her and police normally don't simply walk up and immediately start trying to get someone out of a vehicle, yet ICE did just that. If there is no evidence for criminal behaviour and it isn't interfering with them then no, they have no authority to get involved.

www.theguardian.com

Trump administration unleashes torrent of untruths after woman shot dead by ICE

Victim-blaming began almost as soon as Renee Nicole Good was killed – we examine the claims and the reality
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

No I'm not suggesting blocking them is a good idea, but I'd suggest shooting first and asking questions later is an even worse idea by a very wide margin.

A summary of a key point in the video is that police guidance states that an officer shouldn't put themself in a position in which lethal force becomes inevitable. Part of that is you don't stand in front of the car of a suspect who could be violent. They either ignored that guidance or more likely didn't think she was a violent threat, contradicting their claims about her. Lethal force also is not to be used merely to stop a suspect escaping.

The ICE agent may have thought she was driving at him with intent to harm but all evidence shows she was driving to get away and was steering the car away from him. The lies being spouted by the administration to justify killing is terrible and part of a broader American trend of not holding cops or agents accountable for their use of lethal force. Qualified immunity essentially protects them right up to committing straight up murder.
Click to expand...

Her car across the road if perceived as blocking their duties, in thay scenario is an ilegal act. Noone shot first, there are numerous callsnfor her to exit her vehicle, and even tried to open her door, so dont pretend they rannup to her and executed her without anything else, thats incredibly disingenuous. You also acknowledge the video starts mid incident, yet demonise the ICE agents for theor actions 'starting' with trying to get her out ofnher vehicle.

You need to understand my position very clearly, i condemn extreme words from the Republicans, and the Democrats, and can inly judge the situation on available facts to hand... there is context missing before and after the videos, and not one, including yourself is happy to stay neutral until more comes out! You are, like everyone else who picks a side, are happy tonuse this incident to demonise your opposition, my standpoint is that there were obviously mistakes made, from the video and evidence thus far we can REASONABLY conclude she put herself in a situation she shouldnt have, and due to a number of events she has tragically been killed.

We can make reasonable inferences, that she was there to protest, her car was blocking the street agents made at very least an error, at worst murder.

Outside of that, there are 100 wuestions noone knows the answer too, so whether its demonising he as a domestic terrorist, or pretending shes a flower picking poet who was blindly executed for no reason, both are wrong, both arguments are disgusting, and there is no side to pick yet.

If you find yourself picking a side, your wrong, irs that simple!
 
Gavin said:


Wild take.

The amount of people who actually believe the woman deserved to be shot is incredible.

From all the footage I've seen, the woman is pulling away from the ICE agents
Click to expand...

Massive noise online defending the murderer does not initially equate to actual people, but sooner or later the sheep will adopt that position. Orwell's quote about not believing the evidence of our "Eyes and Ears" seems very prescient now in the US.
 
dirty harry said:
Her car across the road if perceived as blocking their duties, in thay scenario is an ilegal act. Noone shot first, there are numerous callsnfor her to exit her vehicle, and even tried to open her door, so dont pretend they rannup to her and executed her without anything else, thats incredibly disingenuous. You also acknowledge the video starts mid incident, yet demonise the ICE agents for theor actions 'starting' with trying to get her out ofnher vehicle.

You need to understand my position very clearly, i condemn extreme words from the Republicans, and the Democrats, and can inly judge the situation on available facts to hand... there is context missing before and after the videos, and not one, including yourself is happy to stay neutral until more comes out! You are, like everyone else who picks a side, are happy tonuse this incident to demonise your opposition, my standpoint is that there were obviously mistakes made, from the video and evidence thus far we can REASONABLY conclude she put herself in a situation she shouldnt have, and due to a number of events she has tragically been killed.

We can make reasonable inferences, that she was there to protest, her car was blocking the street agents made at very least an error, at worst murder.

Outside of that, there are 100 wuestions noone knows the answer too, so whether its demonising he as a domestic terrorist, or pretending shes a flower picking poet who was blindly executed for no reason, both are wrong, both arguments are disgusting, and there is no side to pick yet.

If you find yourself picking a side, your wrong, irs that simple!
Click to expand...
He was holding a phone. Videoing her. She was pulling away and turning away from him. He shot first then ran beside the car and shot twice more in making sure he killed her. It is murder. The context beforehand is her letting a car out first. Then pulling out. Other context is the murderer had a similar incident 10 montsh earlier where he smashed a car window and tazered a guy 10 times.
 
Demfad said:
He was holding a phone. Videoing her. She was pulling away and turning away from him. He shot first then ran beside the car and shot twice more in making sure he killed her. It is murder. The context beforehand is her letting a car out first. Then pulling out. Other context is the murderer had a similar incident 10 montsh earlier where he smashed a car window and tazered a guy 10 times.
Click to expand...

This is hardly a reasonable take lol
 
Demfad said:
He was holding a phone. Videoing her. She was pulling away and turning away from him. He shot first then ran beside the car and shot twice more in making sure he killed her. It is murder. The context beforehand is her letting a car out first. Then pulling out. Other context is the murderer had a similar incident 10 montsh earlier where he smashed a car window and tazered a guy 10 times.
Click to expand...
Didn't the officer get dragged down the street in that incident and he sustained injuries.

I've seen conflicting reports.

It is probably quite important as any previous experience would impact his decision making. Especially under stress, pressure and in seconds.
 
dirty harry said:
Her car across the road if perceived as blocking their duties, in thay scenario is an ilegal act. Noone shot first, there are numerous callsnfor her to exit her vehicle, and even tried to open her door, so dont pretend they rannup to her and executed her without anything else, thats incredibly disingenuous. You also acknowledge the video starts mid incident, yet demonise the ICE agents for theor actions 'starting' with trying to get her out ofnher vehicle.

You need to understand my position very clearly, i condemn extreme words from the Republicans, and the Democrats, and can inly judge the situation on available facts to hand... there is context missing before and after the videos, and not one, including yourself is happy to stay neutral until more comes out! You are, like everyone else who picks a side, are happy tonuse this incident to demonise your opposition, my standpoint is that there were obviously mistakes made, from the video and evidence thus far we can REASONABLY conclude she put herself in a situation she shouldnt have, and due to a number of events she has tragically been killed.

We can make reasonable inferences, that she was there to protest, her car was blocking the street agents made at very least an error, at worst murder.

Outside of that, there are 100 wuestions noone knows the answer too, so whether its demonising he as a domestic terrorist, or pretending shes a flower picking poet who was blindly executed for no reason, both are wrong, both arguments are disgusting, and there is no side to pick yet.

If you find yourself picking a side, your wrong, irs that simple!
Click to expand...
Again not reading what is written. I didn't suggest they simply ran up and executed her anywhere. You do this a lot Harry, stop creating strawman arguments. What I said was they approached her car and immediately tried opening the door. At the moment we have no evidence of just cause beyond her car being across the road, which wasn't stopping vehicles going past as the video shows a vehicle going past.

I am more neutral about the justification for ICE approaching her, although the evidence to justify that isn't present beyond how her car is angled. I'm not neutral about the quick escalation to lethal force against national guidelines nor the blatant lying by the administration. Yes the Democrats are lying about the degree of innocence but the 2 are not even remotely on the same level. One is justifying killing someone, the other is justifying having a car across the road. Do you think these 2 things are remotely comparable? Not all lies are equal.

No if you find yourself picking a side that doesn't make you wrong.
 
The US government has walked back pretty much all the claims they made about Maduro as justification for him standing trial, in particular being head of a cartel they have now admitted doesn't exist. https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/doj-admits-maduro-drug-cartel-181136029.html?guccounter=1

By all accounts Maduro is a nasty piece of work but it seems there is a very real chance he could be found not guilty because the charges that have been brought against him are works of fiction and the Trump DoJ has again made the mistake of trying to use the lies they tell in public in an actual criminal prosecution.
 
Saintjay said:
Didn't the officer get dragged down the street in that incident and he sustained injuries.

I've seen conflicting reports.

It is probably quite important as any previous experience would impact his decision making. Especially under stress, pressure and in seconds.
Click to expand...

Ive heard both stories today alone, Noem essentially doxxed him yesterday by describing the incident 6 months ago where he was dragged 100 yards by a car with 2 crimjnals in, another where he tasered an unarmed man innocently sat in a vehicle, and the man drove off injuring Ross...

I suspect there is at least 1 exagerated version of the same incident
 

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