USA news & politics

[McTallshort]

You got me there mate. I was being hyperbolic. I offer my hand for you to give it a slap as I'm a naughty boy.

Yeah he proper owned you

 

[dirty harry]

You got me there mate. I was being hyperbolic. I offer my hand for you to give it a slap as I’m a naughty boy.

There you go, that's 1 all haha actually, the Harvard course was White rage, the course from Seattle was Angry white men, so let's say 2 - 1 against me

 

[McTallshort]

My point has been very clear, I'll repost it for you to read again:

"I mean that's all great, but when Harvard deliver degrees in comics, puppetry, and vampire castles vs werewolves lairs, not to mention deconstructing the angry white male, there has to be a discussion on university ethics in education no?

I mean these course cost kids a lifetime of debt, not ethical debt, hardcore hundred thousand dollar I can't afford food this week debt!"

Let's say I concede I wrote degree instead of courses, Harvard run courses on these subjects of comics, white rage etc, but it's clearly in the context of Universities ethical behaviours towards students and the debt they occur.

Does it really matter that specifically Harvard doesn't run a puppetry or comic degree, when there are others who do, and where Harvard goes others follow? institutional isomorphism is a very important phenomenon in academia.

Trump pressures Columbia, Columbia folds and Dean's all over the country react to it with their decision making. We just saw that happen.

So put away your hatred for Trump, and need to prove me wrong, and respond to the essence of my point:

"Does anyone disagree that US universities need overhaul, maybe to come in line with European equivalents, and have safeguards for its customers against the profit driven machine?"

So the links are not about Harvard?

 

[Welsh Exile]

There you go, that's 1 all haha actually, the Harvard course was White rage, the course from Seattle was Angry white men, so let's say 2 - 1 against me

Link?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Overhaul is simple, as I stated above, safeguard students from the capitalist nature of universities who prioritise economic growth over educational and social cohesion.

To simplify, not allow 18 year old kids to sign up to 40k (average, much more courses charge much MUCH more) to degrees that have been proven to have little to no chance of a career in that field. I used Puppetry as an absurd degree, but realistically it's what 500 people a decade that study it, but for every puppetry there is a manga degree, there is 10 comic degrees, 50 other fine arts degrees, 100 gender studies, egyptology, paleontology, costume technology... blah blah blah. By all means study them, but don't predatorially profit from kids signing up to 40k debt at an interest rate of 10% that after 20 years paying minimum payments doesn't budge.

Social media is littered with horror stories of 35 year olds still owing the same as they did on graduation, 1.7t of debt in the country. So overhaul IMO would be as I said previously, coming inline with European standards, although not perfect much better.

Education, as healthcate should not be a capitalist product where profit is prioritised over the customer.

I mean, sure? I’m not against making university more accessible in terms of them being so expensive over there.

At the end of the day, though, you have to let people study what they want and it’s good for society that some kids choose to do stuff that’s a bit left field. What’s the alternative, you only offer degrees in something some random person deems as appropriate?

 

[dirty harry]

I mean, sure? I’m not against making university more accessible in terms of them being so expensive over there.

At the end of the day, though, you have to let people study what they want and it’s good for society that some kids choose to do stuff that’s a bit left field. What’s the alternative, you only offer degrees in something some random person deems as appropriate?

Do European universities not offer wild and whacky degrees? I'm sure there are puppetry, Harry Styles and other degrees all over Europe.

I'm currently looking at degree courses offered by Ludwig Maximilian, there are some degrees there I wouldn't want my daughter to study, but ultimately it won't cost her or me any money. That's the point I'm making, I've never claimed to eradicate any subject, but safeguard students from a lifetime of debt, not to mention political coercion, to study puppetry lol

 

[dirty harry]

Link?

Sorry my link didn't post.

White Rage: Progress and Backlash in American History - Harvard Division of Continuing Education Course Browser

This course examines how people struggled to achieve the full-promise of freedom throughout American history. The organizing theme of this course is the cycle of progress and retrenchment, of revolutions and counter-revolutions, that has come to define American life. The course begins with...

coursebrowser.dce.harvard.edu

 

[Welsh Exile]

Do European universities not offer wild and whacky degrees? I'm sure there are puppetry, Harry Styles and other degrees all over Europe.

I'm currently looking at degree courses offered by Ludwig Maximilian, there are some degrees there I wouldn't want my daughter to study, but ultimately it won't cost her or me any money. That's the point I'm making, I've never claimed to eradicate any subject, but safeguard students from a lifetime of debt, not to mention political coercion, to study puppetry lol

Hey look, if you want to make higher education free for all you’ll get no arguments from me amigo.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sorry my link didn't post.

White Rage: Progress and Backlash in American History - Harvard Division of Continuing Education Course Browser

This course examines how people struggled to achieve the full-promise of freedom throughout American history. The organizing theme of this course is the cycle of progress and retrenchment, of revolutions and counter-revolutions, that has come to define American life. The course begins with...

coursebrowser.dce.harvard.edu

So not a degree, just a module that can contribute to countless other courses

Not like you to over sensationalise things

 

[Welsh Exile]

Sorry my link didn't post.

White Rage: Progress and Backlash in American History - Harvard Division of Continuing Education Course Browser

This course examines how people struggled to achieve the full-promise of freedom throughout American history. The organizing theme of this course is the cycle of progress and retrenchment, of revolutions and counter-revolutions, that has come to define American life. The course begins with...

coursebrowser.dce.harvard.edu

Ahhh, so the full title is White Rage, Progress and Backlash in American History.

Sounds like a normal course to do for, I dunno, an American history degree

 

[Which Tyler]

How about we scrap any and all study of history then because, outside of producing media for people who want to learn about it, it has no financial benefit.

Please don't - the right would absolutely adore that - they're already insisting on only teaching a very whitewashed version of history.

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
Those who prevent the teaching of history intend to repeat it


ETA: I'm guessing that the "No Sealions" request for this thread has been roundly ignored...

 

[dirty harry]

So not a degree, just a module that can contribute to countless other courses

Not like you to over sensationalise things

Clearly said course lol not like you to attack without paying attention hahaha

Why is it, and I want you guys to think clearly, that none of you, except welsh Exile eventually, will address my very common, left wing anti Capitalist point?

Every comment has been an attack on a technicality, name calling, making my argument absurd, claiming Republicans are anti Capitalist hahaha, mocking, and refusal to acknowledge my repeatedly stated argument.

Is it a lack of integrity? Is it fear of being ostracised and dog piled on that has caused others to flea politic discussion with you? Is it for fear of looking like you are aligning with Donald Trump?

It's fascinating, I repeatedly criticise Trump, the capitalistic nature of education and healthcare in the USA, and the response are petty name calling, contradictions, mistruths and hysterics hahaha

Berating every voice that doesn't agree with the 'correct' view on this board very single time, doesn't make you guys right, or even look good. Either have the bravery to combat the point, or acknowledge the cowardice of the group think.

This is textbook Semmelweiss reflex, and I'm sometimes guilty of it also, I think everyone is, but when numerous people tell me that my stance on taking profit away from education (or Healthcare) is a Republican talking point, you have to question yourselves hahaha

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Because I don't really care what you have to say, tbh
Your words carry no weight because to you this is all points scoring like it's some game

 

[Welsh Exile]

Clearly said course lol not like you to attack without paying attention hahaha

Why is it, and I want you guys to think clearly, that none of you, except welsh Exile eventually, will address my very common, left wing anti Capitalist point?

Every comment has been an attack on a technicality, name calling, making my argument absurd, claiming Republicans are anti Capitalist hahaha, mocking, and refusal to acknowledge my repeatedly stated argument.

Is it a lack of integrity? Is it fear of being ostracised and dog piled on that has caused others to flea politic discussion with you? Is it for fear of looking like you are aligning with Donald Trump?

It's fascinating, I repeatedly criticise Trump, the capitalistic nature of education and healthcare in the USA, and the response are petty name calling, contradictions, mistruths and hysterics hahaha

Berating every voice that doesn't agree with the 'correct' view on this board very single time, doesn't make you guys right, or even look good. Either have the bravery to combat the point, or acknowledge the cowardice of the group think.

This is textbook Semmelweiss reflex, and I'm sometimes guilty of it also, I think everyone is, but when numerous people tell me that my stance on taking profit away from education (or Healthcare) is a Republican talking point, you have to question yourselves hahaha

I don’t think anyone disagrees with making universities more accessible and I’m 100% sure that if you asked anyone on here would you like universities to not be concerned with profit and offer free education to all you’ll have no arguments from anyone.

This whole stupid conversation started with you wrongly saying Harvard are offering degrees in warewolves and other such ******** which is demonstrably untrue.

As I said, if you want people to pat you on the back and say I agree universities are expensive then sure. That’s fine.

If you want to have a wider debate about Trumps motivation behind his attack on Harvard then cool. I don’t know much about it to be honest but as a rule whatever Trump says is a lie pretty much. He says he’s worried about anti semitism in schools. lol. That’s a good one.

 

[dirty harry]

I don’t think anyone disagrees with making universities more accessible and I’m 100% sure that if you asked anyone on here would you like universities to not be concerned with profit and offer free education to all you’ll have no arguments from anyone.

This whole stupid conversation started with you wrongly saying Harvard are offering degrees in warewolves and other such ******** which is demonstrably untrue.

As I said, if you want people to pat you on the back and say I agree universities are expensive then sure. That’s fine.

If you want to have a wider debate about Trumps motivation behind his attack on Harvard then cool. I don’t know much about it to be honest but as a rule whatever Trump says is a lie pretty much. He says he’s worried about anti semitism in schools. lol. That’s a good one.

Except I literally widened context on a discussion on ethical treatment and debt for students in the very next line. I can concede I said degree instead of course, but acknowledging the context of lifetime debt is important to the discussion no?

I also posted a link to a very informed Guardian article about how Biden, and numerous Democrats have paved the way for Trump to be able to attack Harvard. I also posted made the argument of institutional isomorphism. The Columbia victory instilled behaviours across the country, and Harvard is the next battle.

I'm not looking for a pat on the back, just discussion around the subject matter posted, instead of avoidance of very valid points lol.

Trump isn't the start of the antisemitism on campus discussion, Biden was at it strong

Biden warns against ‘surge of antisemitism’ at Holocaust event

President warned of ‘surge of antisemitism’ amid Israel military’s deadly attacks that have killed more than 34,000 people in Gaza

www.theguardian.com

Kamala Harris said she would deal with it also, her husband became the face of fighting anti semitism at Columbia, meeting Jewish leaders etc..

Harris speaks out against campus antisemitism

In a virtual event on Friday before Yom Kippur, the vice president described a need to balance students’ legitimate freedom of speech while also fighting hate on campuses

jewishinsider.com

Trump's claim of anti semitism is 100% in line with the last presidency. Now where I would disagree is with how he's adressing the issues, but you just agreed there are issues no? So you think he lies, bit you agree in part with his policy.

 

[dirty harry]

Because I don't really care what you have to say, tbh
Your words carry no weight because to you this is all points scoring like it's some game

It's discussion on an online forum with strangers, we exchange ideas, and should disagree at times.

I don't think I've ever attacked you, or even engaged you, I don't understand your vitriol or emotion in this instance, but I hope you enjoy your day!

 

[Welsh Exile]

Except I literally widened context on a discussion on ethical treatment and debt for students in the very next line. I can concede I said degree instead of course, but acknowledging the context of lifetime debt is important to the discussion no?

I also posted a link to a very informed Guardian article about how Biden, and numerous Democrats have paved the way for Trump to be able to attack Harvard. I also posted made the argument of institutional isomorphism. The Columbia victory instilled behaviours across the country, and Harvard is the next battle.

I'm not looking for a pat on the back, just discussion around the subject matter posted, instead of avoidance of very valid points lol.

Trump isn't the start of the antisemitism on campus discussion, Biden was at it strong

Biden warns against ‘surge of antisemitism’ at Holocaust event

President warned of ‘surge of antisemitism’ amid Israel military’s deadly attacks that have killed more than 34,000 people in Gaza

www.theguardian.com

Kamala Harris said she would deal with it also, her husband became the face of fighting anti semitism at Columbia, meeting Jewish leaders etc..

Harris speaks out against campus antisemitism

In a virtual event on Friday before Yom Kippur, the vice president described a need to balance students’ legitimate freedom of speech while also fighting hate on campuses

jewishinsider.com

Trump's claim of anti semitism is 100% in line with the last presidency. Now where I would disagree is with how he's adressing the issues, but you just agreed there are issues no? So you think he lies, bit you agree in part with his policy.

I don't believe there is no issue, I laugh at the fact that people think Trump cares about anti semitism at university, or anti semitism in general. Of course he doesn't. How he is addressing the issue is kind of the key thing, no?

Look, can people get overloaded with student debt, of course they can. Is that bad? Sure. But most of these kids, I imagine, come from pretty middle class backgrounds and will probably be alright and the poorer kids will probably be on some kind of scholarship. Bit like I said to you earlier, for every kid that studied a crap degree and don't have much to show for their time at uni other than a load of debt I bet you'll find 10 kids in good, well paying jobs. *

*I don't mean that 1-10 stat literally just something I feel intuitively to be true. (I.e kids that go to uni, on average, tend to earn more than kids who don't)

 

[dirty harry]

I don't believe there is no issue, I laugh at the fact that people think Trump cares about anti semitism at university, or anti semitism in general. Of course he doesn't. How he is addressing the issue is kind of the key thing, no?

Look, can people get overloaded with student debt, of course they can. Is that bad? Sure. But most of these kids, I imagine, come from pretty middle class backgrounds and will probably be alright and the poorer kids will probably be on some kind of scholarship. Bit like I said to you earlier, for every kid that studied a crap degree and don't have much to show for their time at uni other than a load of debt I bet you'll find 10 kids in good, well paying jobs. *

*I don't mean that 1-10 stat literally just something I feel intuitively to be true. (I.e kids that go to uni, on average, tend to earn more than kids who don't)

Oh we are aligned on this 100%, he of course doesn't give a ****, it's just a tool to use, where the last presidency set a standard.

I also agree I would criticise how he's doing it, what I find baffling about this is he had created a scenario where he has SO much going on, global tarrifs, Russian peace deal, Gazan peace deal, going after Harvard and Columbia, immigration reform etc... all huge issues, most presidents would address one at a time, but my lord he's gone at it all hammer and tongs!!!

Don't worry about stats, no need for the caveat, we all make claims intuitively, I only responded being petty and tongue in cheek above lol.

The stats on student loan in the US are far scarier than you think though, 75% of students attribute debt, meaning scholarships and rich parents are a massive minority (although some who acquire the debt probably have rich parents too).

The default rates are huge, nearly 10% or about 5.5 million people. And people in their 50s and 60s are still repaying. Vox did a breakdown pre covid, that's scary enough, and the situation is much worse.



Student loan repayments were frozen for Covid, and DOE started collections again April this year, social media exploded with people unable to afford to live.

Not only is this predatory by the universities, but politically expedient. Bidens victory was in part to the promise of student loan forgiveness, that was never going to happen, and it didn't. Of the 'victories' where loans were forgiven, most were made up of fraudulent university activities, and those who were never going to be able to repay such as disabled graduates.

U.S. Department of Education to Begin Federal Student Loan Collections, Other Actions to Help Borrowers Get Back into Repayment

The U.S. Department of Education announced its Office of Federal Student Aid (FSA) will resume collections of its defaulted federal student loan portfolio on Monday, May 5th. The Department has not collected on defaulted loans since March 2020.

www.ed.gov

The scary part is the rejection of income based repayments, and reforms over recent years to safeguard students, and the implementation of new involuntary collections.

Apologies for the rant lol

 

[Which Tyler]

Look, can people get overloaded with student debt, of course they can. Is that bad? Sure. But most of these kids, I imagine, come from pretty middle class backgrounds and will probably be alright and the poorer kids will probably be on some kind of scholarship. Bit like I said to you earlier, for every kid that studied a crap degree and don't have much to show for their time at uni other than a load of debt I bet you'll find 10 kids in good, well paying jobs.

Also worth noting that University teaches far more than "facts about the course subject" - that's lower education. University teaches broadened horizons, critical thinking and evaluation skills etc etc - which is why even degrees in irrelevant to the job are preferable to no degree when it comes to employment.
People who think that Uni just teaches "facts about the course subject" mostly didn't go to university, and assume it's just a continuation of school, or failed at university - even if they ended up with a degree, even a 1st, or as valedictorium. Hell, even small colleges that only teach 1 subject matter (such as mine) you learn far more than just the subject matter.

This is exactly why both ends of the political spectrum hates universities and intellectuals - because they can see through the rabble-rousing bullshit (apart from the ones who got their degree, but failed at university learning) - and generally, can both articulate and bring the receipts.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Oh we are aligned on this 100%, he of course doesn't give a ****, it's just a tool to use, where the last presidency set a standard.

I also agree I would criticise how he's doing it, what I find baffling about this is he had created a scenario where he has SO much going on, global tarrifs, Russian peace deal, Gazan peace deal, going after Harvard and Columbia, immigration reform etc... all huge issues, most presidents would address one at a time, but my lord he's gone at it all hammer and tongs!!!

Don't worry about stats, no need for the caveat, we all make claims intuitively, I only responded being petty and tongue in cheek above lol.

The stats on student loan in the US are far scarier than you think though, 75% of students attribute debt, meaning scholarships and rich parents are a massive minority (although some who acquire the debt probably have rich parents too).

The default rates are huge, nearly 10% or about 5.5 million people. And people in their 50s and 60s are still repaying. Vox did a breakdown pre covid, that's scary enough, and the situation is much worse.



Student loan repayments were frozen for Covid, and DOE started collections again April this year, social media exploded with people unable to afford to live.

Not only is this predatory by the universities, but politically expedient. Bidens victory was in part to the promise of student loan forgiveness, that was never going to happen, and it didn't. Of the 'victories' where loans were forgiven, most were made up of fraudulent university activities, and those who were never going to be able to repay such as disabled graduates.

U.S. Department of Education to Begin Federal Student Loan Collections, Other Actions to Help Borrowers Get Back into Repayment

The U.S. Department of Education announced its Office of Federal Student Aid (FSA) will resume collections of its defaulted federal student loan portfolio on Monday, May 5th. The Department has not collected on defaulted loans since March 2020.

www.ed.gov

The scary part is the rejection of income based repayments, and reforms over recent years to safeguard students, and the implementation of new involuntary collections.

Apologies for the rant lol

I don’t think any president has set a “don’t give a **** about anyone other than myself” standard in the way Trump has. Not even close. Whether I am ideologically opposed to some republican president I am sure they cared about America, its institutions, people and constitution. Trump doesn’t care about any of that. He’s unique in that sense.