Tri- Nations Talent - New Zealand

[Getofmeland]

The New Zealand franchises didn't have a particularly successful Super 15 season, with their conference leading team, the Crusaders having the lowest points total of all 3 conference winners (61) and only one other Kiwi team winning more games than they lost. The Blues recorded 10 wins and 1 draw from their 16 matches. Logically the New Zealand squad consists mainly of Crusaders and Blues players, but from a neutral perspective there appear to be some strange selections and a few glaring omissions.

Whilst the Crusaders arguably have the strongest squad of players in Super Rugby Israel Dagg's inclusion in the All Black squad slightly surprised me, mainly as he hasn't started a game for the Crusaders since they returned from their tour of South Africa in early May. Dagg is not short on talent and despite only turning 23 at the start of June he has already played 3 seasons of Super Rugby. As you would imagine of a player with New Zealand caps he does have exceptional pace and as he proved with his last minute try against South Africa in Soweto last year the habit of being in the right place at the right time. The second reason for my surprise was that Dagg's replacement in the Crusaders team 21 year old Tom Marshall has been one of the best Fullbacks I have seen in Super Rugby this season. He made his debut in the competition against the Waratahs in the Crusaders 33-18 thrashing back in Week 3 when has was aged just 20. Marshall may not have the same scoring record as Dagg but in the one area where Dagg is often questioned defence Marshall would appear to have a distinct advantage, his try saving tackle on Aaron Cruden is already a favourite on You Tube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP1k5rGhFC8) with over 61, 700 hits just 3 weeks after it was posted.

The second player who I feel was very unfortunate to miss out on a place in New Zealand's squad is 23 year old Crusaders Centre Robbie Fruean, I'm not sure that there can be a more imposing Centre combination in world rugby than Fruean alongside team mate Sonny Bill Williams. Sonny Bill has been a revelation since he made the switch from Rugby League in 2008 not least as a result of his sheer physical presence, but Fruean is the same height as Sonny Bill and 5lbs (2 kg) heavier than his Centre partner. Despite his size, Fruean stands 6feet 3 inches tall and is listed at a gargantuan 17 stone 5 lb (110 kg) he does have a serious turn of pace and has provided a fitting link between the Crusaders penetrating midfield ball carriers and their expeditious back 3. Obviously with his combination of size and speed Fruean is a very solid defender and a You Tube clip of him chasing Brumbies flyer Adam Ashley- Cooper 60 yards to tackle him 5 yards from the try line just proves his commitment to his team-mates, the Crusaders where 45-10 in front at the time. Conrad Smith who has been selected in Fruean's position is undoubtedly one of the best Centre's in world rugby but this season he missed a number of games through injury and whilst Fruean has not played every Super XV game this year he has played significantly more than Smith. The final reason I feel Fruean would have been a better option at 13 than Conrad Smith is that he has spent more time than anybody else playing outside Sonny Bill Williams and with Williams' unpredictability and ability to release the ball when you least expect I believe that's a big advantage.

Rene Ranger and Sean Maitland both ran in an impressive 8 tries in Super rugby this season, the most by any Kiwi player and neither of them feature in their squad. Maitland is just 22 years old, so presumably the All Black selectors see him as a future prospect, but with an impressive 20 tries in 41 games for the Crusaders I would have thought he would worth a shot in a Tri Nations competition which is merely being used as a build to this year's World Cup. Rene Ranger is arguably one of the most enigmatic players in world rugby, he is one of the most explosive wingers but on occasion it seems that he has himself forgotten this, I understand why New Zealand's coaching staff are reluctant to select him as he has failed to impress in his 3 chances they have given him so far, but again in a tournament where performances seem to be foremost over results Ranger was surely deserving of another chance to prove he can concentrate for a whole 80 minutes.

The final youngster who I believe has excelled in the Super rugby competition this year and missed out on a squad place is the Blues pedigree Flanker Luke Braid, his father and elder brother both have All Black caps. The All Blacks are not left wanting for talented back rowers but Braid has risen above the crowd with his abrasive approach this season. Not only is Braid an imposing physical presence at 6 feet 4 inches tall and not only does he relish physical confrontation but he is not averse to appearing in midfield to carry the ball and link with his backs. With All Black's skipper Richie McCaw currently occupying the number 7 shirt Braid may have to wait sometime for his opportunity in the national side and while McCaw is probably the best International Captain in world rugby and currently holds the IRB player of the year award he has featured in just 7 Super rugby games this season due to a persistent ankle injury. Braid has also managed something that McCaw has not this year; he has scored a Super XV try.

Of the players who have been selected in New Zealand's Tri Nations squad one stands out above all the others, the highest scoring forward in this year's Super rugby competition, Adam Thomson of the Highlanders. Thomson touched down 6 times in 13 games this season and is widely regarded as the fastest player over 400m in the All Black's squad so he should be integral to their "new system" where they aim to suck in defender's and then move the ball outside quickly to take advantage of any space out wide. Thomson has been unlucky with injuries in previous seasons but he has never really become a permanent fixture in the All Black back row and he has been battling for playing time with players who are seen as more destructive ball carriers than him like Jerome Kaino and Liam Messam.

Finally the three players who I am looking forward to watching in the 2011 Tri Nations are all Crusaders, obviously Sonny Bill Williams has been phenomenal in rugby union since his move to RCT Toulannais and any chance to see the giant Centre in action is always a privilege. Another obvious selection is Number 8 Kieran Read, he, like Luke Braid stands at an impressive 6 feet 4 inches tall, but he is relatively light for such a tall man, weighing just 16 stone 7lbs (105 kgs). Read's biggest asset is his mobility and he plays more like an auxiliary flanker than a number 8, he is more often seen clearing out rucks or turning over possession at tackle situations as he is rampaging over defenders with the ball in hand. My last selection is a controversial one in some eyes as this player has had a criticism from some Kiwi analysts, Zac Guildford. Guildford is just 22 years old but made his All Black's debut 2 years ago, this year he has scored just 5 tries, which validate the criticism that he struggles to create his own chances but what he lacks in creativity he more than makes up with exceptional pace and work rate. Along with Tom Marshall and Sean Maitland Guildford ran back an inordinate number of clearance kicks this season and in doing so allowed the Crusaders forwards to turn the screw on their opponents inside their own 22 metre areas. Guildford's pace is not only key when returning opposition clearance kicks, but also for chasing Dan Carter's kicks, knowing that the flying Guildford will arrive shortly after the kick puts the opposition back 3 under even more intense pressure.

The All Blacks obviously have a frightening amount of talent at their disposal and some bookmakers rightly make them 8/11 favourites to win the World Cup on home soil. The one concern I have is that their strategy of selecting players who they have invested heavily in and relied on over the last 4 years is to the detriment of the players who have impressed over the last 7 months. Instead of suffering from "burnout" as Nick Easter suggested, their squad could instead become stale and miss the energy and enthusiasm that fresh blood brings with it.

Blog by @buck_mitchell

 

[Darwin]

Interesting post. A few points:

Tom Marshall is a promising young player, but he is nowhere near in the class of Israel Dagg at this stage (or any number of NZ fullbacks). He is a great ball runner, but his option taking is poor, his error rate high, and his defense also very poor. There is no way he is a better defender than Dagg (who is generally a pretty solid defensive player). Incidentally I wouldn't have picked Dagg in the initial Tri-nations squad either - instead I would have gone for Cory Jane / Ben Smith.

Obviously with his combination of size and speed Fruean is a very solid defender and a You Tube clip of him chasing Brumbies flyer Adam Ashley- Cooper 60 yards to tackle him 5 yards from the try line just proves his commitment to his team-mates, the Crusaders where 45-10 in front at the time.

Though Fruean does have a great combination of size and speed he is far from a solid defender... he is a complete liability on defense. He frequently gets caught out of position on defense, and even when he is in position to make the tackle he often fails to complete the tackle. He also has a habit of fading in and out of games - he will do something wonderful then completely disappear for the next 15 minutes. If he wants to make the AB's (which he certainly has the potential to do) he still needs to make huge improvement in his defensive game and his work-rate.

Like you I would have been tempted to find room for Luke Braid (or Matt Todd, as I still think the need a specialist backup 7). Luke certainly isn't 6'4 though (despite what Wikipedia tells you...) - he is a actually quite short and stocky (the Blues / BOP websites list him at 1.85m / 1.84m - a touch over 6').

Great to see you mention Zac Guildford!

 

[Larksea]

kinda interesting writeup but it seems a bit out of touch.

If you have ever seen Luke Braid on the field playing you wouldn't need anyone to tell you he obviously isn't 6'4inches tall he's actually pretty short as far as loose forwards go.

That Fruend tackle on AAC by Fruen was mind blowing but overall Fruen's defence does need work. during those last few games he dropped off a lot of tackles. Reunion did a montage of his missed tackles from the s15 finals and it just looked shocking.

Tom Marshall is a good prospect but no way is he ready for the all blacks who have tons of tallent in the outside backs. I'd pick Mils, Toeava, Dagg and Jane ahead of him.

There is already a logjam of outside backs in the squad

Mils, Toeava, Dagg, Gear, Sivivatu, Guildford, Jane, Ben Smith

Three of them will have to be cut from the squad before the WC, wont be easy to do and they wont get many chances.

Plus all these comments about how the AB's old and stale, don't buy into it... See Zac Guildford, Sam Whitelock, Owen Franks, Israel Dagg, Colin Slade - all in their early 20's and there is another group who are all about 25. The only young guy I would have liked to see in the All Blacks is Hika Elliot, I think it's a real shame he's not there - been in awesome ITM cup form as well.

If anything there is a very very good balance in this squad between old experienced hands, guys who are at the peak in their carriers (24-29) and young blood (20-23)

And the Old Guys... Thorn, Mealamu, Hore... They are world class. Any doubts over Hore have gone out the window already and I dont think tere are any over the other two.

 

[nickdnz]

The New Zealand franchises didn't have a particularly successful Super 15 season, with their conference leading team, the Crusaders having the lowest points total of all 3 conference winners (61) and only one other Kiwi team winning more games than they lost. The Blues recorded 10 wins and 1 draw from their 16 matches. Logically the New Zealand squad consists mainly of Crusaders and Blues players, but from a neutral perspective there appear to be some strange selections and a few glaring omissions.

Whilst the Crusaders arguably have the strongest squad of players in Super Rugby Israel Dagg’s inclusion in the All Black squad slightly surprised me, mainly as he hasn’t started a game for the Crusaders since they returned from their tour of South Africa in early May. Dagg is not short on talent and despite only turning 23 at the start of June he has already played 3 seasons of Super Rugby. As you would imagine of a player with New Zealand caps he does have exceptional pace and as he proved with his last minute try against South Africa in Soweto last year the habit of being in the right place at the right time. The second reason for my surprise was that Dagg’s replacement in the Crusaders team 21 year old Tom Marshall has been one of the best Fullbacks I have seen in Super Rugby this season. He made his debut in the competition against the Waratahs in the Crusaders 33-18 thrashing back in Week 3 when has was aged just 20. Marshall may not have the same scoring record as Dagg but in the one area where Dagg is often questioned defence Marshall would appear to have a distinct advantage, his try saving tackle on Aaron Cruden is already a favourite on You Tube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP1k5rGhFC8) with over 61, 700 hits just 3 weeks after it was posted.

The second player who I feel was very unfortunate to miss out on a place in New Zealand’s squad is 23 year old Crusaders Centre Robbie Fruean, I’m not sure that there can be a more imposing Centre combination in world rugby than Fruean alongside team mate Sonny Bill Williams. Sonny Bill has been a revelation since he made the switch from Rugby League in 2008 not least as a result of his sheer physical presence, but Fruean is the same height as Sonny Bill and 5lbs (2 kg) heavier than his Centre partner. Despite his size, Fruean stands 6feet 3 inches tall and is listed at a gargantuan 17 stone 5 lb (110 kg) he does have a serious turn of pace and has provided a fitting link between the Crusaders penetrating midfield ball carriers and their expeditious back 3. Obviously with his combination of size and speed Fruean is a very solid defender and a You Tube clip of him chasing Brumbies flyer Adam Ashley- Cooper 60 yards to tackle him 5 yards from the try line just proves his commitment to his team-mates, the Crusaders where 45-10 in front at the time. Conrad Smith who has been selected in Fruean’s position is undoubtedly one of the best Centre’s in world rugby but this season he missed a number of games through injury and whilst Fruean has not played every Super XV game this year he has played significantly more than Smith. The final reason I feel Fruean would have been a better option at 13 than Conrad Smith is that he has spent more time than anybody else playing outside Sonny Bill Williams and with Williams’ unpredictability and ability to release the ball when you least expect I believe that’s a big advantage.

Rene Ranger and Sean Maitland both ran in an impressive 8 tries in Super rugby this season, the most by any Kiwi player and neither of them feature in their squad. Maitland is just 22 years old, so presumably the All Black selectors see him as a future prospect, but with an impressive 20 tries in 41 games for the Crusaders I would have thought he would worth a shot in a Tri Nations competition which is merely being used as a build to this year’s World Cup. Rene Ranger is arguably one of the most enigmatic players in world rugby, he is one of the most explosive wingers but on occasion it seems that he has himself forgotten this, I understand why New Zealand’s coaching staff are reluctant to select him as he has failed to impress in his 3 chances they have given him so far, but again in a tournament where performances seem to be foremost over results Ranger was surely deserving of another chance to prove he can concentrate for a whole 80 minutes.

The final youngster who I believe has excelled in the Super rugby competition this year and missed out on a squad place is the Blues pedigree Flanker Luke Braid, his father and elder brother both have All Black caps. The All Blacks are not left wanting for talented back rowers but Braid has risen above the crowd with his abrasive approach this season. Not only is Braid an imposing physical presence at 6 feet 4 inches tall and not only does he relish physical confrontation but he is not averse to appearing in midfield to carry the ball and link with his backs. With All Black’s skipper Richie McCaw currently occupying the number 7 shirt Braid may have to wait sometime for his opportunity in the national side and while McCaw is probably the best International Captain in world rugby and currently holds the IRB player of the year award he has featured in just 7 Super rugby games this season due to a persistent ankle injury. Braid has also managed something that McCaw has not this year; he has scored a Super XV try.

Of the players who have been selected in New Zealand’s Tri Nations squad one stands out above all the others, the highest scoring forward in this year’s Super rugby competition, Adam Thomson of the Highlanders. Thomson touched down 6 times in 13 games this season and is widely regarded as the fastest player over 400m in the All Black’s squad so he should be integral to their “new system†where they aim to suck in defender’s and then move the ball outside quickly to take advantage of any space out wide. Thomson has been unlucky with injuries in previous seasons but he has never really become a permanent fixture in the All Black back row and he has been battling for playing time with players who are seen as more destructive ball carriers than him like Jerome Kaino and Liam Messam.

Finally the three players who I am looking forward to watching in the 2011 Tri Nations are all Crusaders, obviously Sonny Bill Williams has been phenomenal in rugby union since his move to RCT Toulannais and any chance to see the giant Centre in action is always a privilege. Another obvious selection is Number 8 Kieran Read, he, like Luke Braid stands at an impressive 6 feet 4 inches tall, but he is relatively light for such a tall man, weighing just 16 stone 7lbs (105 kgs). Read’s biggest asset is his mobility and he plays more like an auxiliary flanker than a number 8, he is more often seen clearing out rucks or turning over possession at tackle situations as he is rampaging over defenders with the ball in hand. My last selection is a controversial one in some eyes as this player has had a criticism from some Kiwi analysts, Zac Guildford. Guildford is just 22 years old but made his All Black’s debut 2 years ago, this year he has scored just 5 tries, which validate the criticism that he struggles to create his own chances but what he lacks in creativity he more than makes up with exceptional pace and work rate. Along with Tom Marshall and Sean Maitland Guildford ran back an inordinate number of clearance kicks this season and in doing so allowed the Crusaders forwards to turn the screw on their opponents inside their own 22 metre areas. Guildford’s pace is not only key when returning opposition clearance kicks, but also for chasing Dan Carter’s kicks, knowing that the flying Guildford will arrive shortly after the kick puts the opposition back 3 under even more intense pressure.

The All Blacks obviously have a frightening amount of talent at their disposal and some bookmakers rightly make them 8/11 favourites to win the World Cup on home soil. The one concern I have is that their strategy of selecting players who they have invested heavily in and relied on over the last 4 years is to the detriment of the players who have impressed over the last 7 months. Instead of suffering from “burnout†as Nick Easter suggested, their squad could instead become stale and miss the energy and enthusiasm that fresh blood brings with it.

Blog by @buck_mitchell

Disagree with much of this.

1. I'd say New Zealand Franchises had collectively the best season. Two New Zealand teams made the semi finals, the Crusaders may have scored less points overall but they were clearly part of the hardest pool, which can be shown by the number of wins against other conferences by teams that came last in the NZ conference. In fact, every team in the New Zealand conference looked dangerous, with even the Hurricanes beating the Reds.

2. I agree that there is no way Dagg (who was a fringe All Black anyway) did enough to secure a spot in the All Blacks, but there is no way that Tom Marshall should be anywhere near the All Blacks. He did a pretty good job covering Dagg's position, but there is no way that he deserves a spot with outside backs like Ben Smith, Cory Jane, Muliaina and Isaia Toeava clearly all top class players.

3. Robert Fruean is a good player, but it would be hard to argue that he would be a better fit than Nonu, Smith, Kahui and SBW. As previously mentioned, his defense can be pretty woeful. He often looks for the big hit, but too often players just bounce out of his tackles. The try save from Youtube was impressive, but not typical of his defensive skill. He is also about 106kgs (despite what Wikipedia says) and is two inchest shorter than SBW. Also, Conrad Smith has proven time and time again he is a world class centre (probably the best). Sonny Bill Williams is still clearly not the incumbant 12 for the All Blacks, and has not infact been especially impressive for the All Blacks (except against Scotland). There is also no doubt Nonu finished the S15 in better form than SBW, who became pretty quiet. Leaving out Smith would be insane.

4. Rene Ranger is injured now and set to miss the rest of the season anyway. I agree that anyone should have been picked over Zac Guildford, but that's by the way.

5. Luke Braid (once again, despite Wikipedia) is not 6'4'', he's actually just on 6'1'' http://www.theblues.co.nz/players/0-Luke-Braid.aspx. I would have picked Todd or Daniel Braid over him anyway, as he is too inexperiences. If he was picked this season he would become the new Ben Atiga.

6. Adam Thompson scored quite a few tries, but his form towards the end of the season vanished. He looked alright against South Africa, but his physicality is rubbish. He's also not the fastest All Black over 400m, as there is no test for that in the All Blacks. I'd be very suprised if he was quicker than someone like Conrad Smith or Daniel Carter, as they are both much quicker and easily as fit.

7. Zac Guildford is a very, very poor man's Doug Howlett.

8. By rely on picking players on All Black experience and not on S15 form, Cory Jane and Mils Muliaina had their best games in the last two years. I agree that Maitland and probably Matt Todd could make their way into the All Blacks, but players like Marshall?

 

[smartcooky]

1. I'd say New Zealand Franchises had collectively the best season. Two New Zealand teams made the semi finals, the Crusaders may have scored less points overall but they were clearly part of the hardest pool, which can be shown by the number of wins against other conferences by teams that came last in the NZ conference. In fact, every team in the New Zealand conference looked dangerous, with even the Hurricanes beating the Reds.

I would certainly agree with this. The statistics bear this out

Table of results: Matches between Teams from one conference v teams from the other two conferences.

[TEXTAREA]NEW ZEALAND:
Played 40 won 22 lost 17 drew 1

SOUTH AFRICA:
Played 40 won 21 lost 19

AUSTRALIA:
Played 40 won 16 Lost 23 drew 1[/TEXTAREA]

This pretty much proves nick's point. The stats clearly show that the NZ and SA conferences were harder and more competitive than the Australian conference, but an Australian team manged to top the overall table on the back of easy opposition within their own conference.

 

[Rhyer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRyTFooiTlQ&feature=related

Watch the clip towards the end and you'll see Conrad Smith is the fittest All Black. Certainly something you wouldn't want to give up when fitness is everything in professional rugby. Fruean barely has enough fitness for one half and that is why last year he kept getting subbed off at half time or around the 60th minute. Granted he has/had a heart problem so I'm not trying to insult him, just point out that you need fitness and that is Conrad Smith.

 

[Darwin]

5. Luke Braid (once again, despite Wikipedia) is not 6'4'', he's actually just on 6'1'' http://www.theblues.co.nz/players/0-Luke-Braid.aspx. I would have picked Todd or Daniel Braid over him anyway, as he is too inexperiences. If he was picked this season he would become the new Ben Atiga.

I'm 50/50 as to who I would pick out of Luke Braid and Matt Todd, however if you consider Luke Braid too inexperienced, then Matt Todd is definitely too inexperienced. Luke Braid played with the NZ under 20's, and has played more Super Rugby and ITM Cup rugby than Todd.

7. Zac Guildford is a very, very poor man's Doug Howlett.

Yet he is still a superior player to Hosea Gear *ducks for cover*

 

[donmcdazzle]

At NickDnz:

Adam Thomson would be in with a great shout at being the fastest over 400m. He is incredibly fast for a loosie and is pretty tall so would have a longer stride than Smith - more suitable for a 400m run. Thomson is also incredibly fit. You say he lacks physicality, however he made a few strong taclkes against the boks, and was a busy ball carrier for good metres.

I really don;t get the guildford hate. He is one of the quickest guys in NZ rugby, has a massive work rate and a low error rate. What isn't to like? He is real similar to Doug Howlett, but faster. What did howlett do that Guildford doesn't?

 

[Rhyer]

Howlett could have been an olympic sprinter, I doubt Guildford is quicker. I do like Guildford, just saying is all.

 

[smartcooky]

At NickDnz:

Adam Thomson would be in with a great shout at being the fastest over 400m. He is incredibly fast for a loosie and is pretty tall so would have a longer stride than Smith - more suitable for a 400m run. Thomson is also incredibly fit. You say he lacks physicality, however he made a few strong taclkes against the boks, and was a busy ball carrier for good metres.

I really don;t get the guildford hate. He is one of the quickest guys in NZ rugby, has a massive work rate and a low error rate. What isn't to like? He is real similar to Doug Howlett, but faster. What did howlett do that Guildford doesn't?

Reunion had a few overhead clips last night showing just how high Guildford's work rate is, and how much extra stuff he does around the park.

In his second try, he continually followed up, tracking the ball from right to left to right across the field and getting himself onto position to contribute to taking the ball forward, and then cleverly puts himself in the gap at Mils' right shoulder to receive the pass, when the easy/obvious place to be was on his left shoulder for the inside pass.

Now he was dropped from the AB's after Ted told him he needed to get his work rate up. He has done that in spades, and deserves his place in the team on merit.

 

[Darwin]

Reunion had a few overhead clips last night showing just how high Guildford's work rate is, and how much extra stuff he does around the park.

In his second try, he continually followed up, tracking the ball from right to left to right across the field and getting himself onto position to contribute to taking the ball forward, and then cleverly puts himself in the gap at Mils' right shoulder to receive the pass, when the easy/obvious place to be was on his left shoulder for the inside pass.

Now he was dropped from the AB's after Ted told him he needed to get his work rate up. He has done that in spades, and deserves his place in the team on merit.

Well said. To fully appreciate players like Guildford (or Ben Smith), people really need to watch the game live at the ground, as you get a very different perspective on the game. After watching the Carisbrook test at the ground I couldn't understand why people were criticising Guildford, as he was all over the park... people watching on TV wouldn't have seen this, as you only get to see what happens close to the ball. I've heard several people claim that the tries Guildford scored v Australia could be 'scored by anyone'. I agree that the tries would have been scored by most international wings if they had put themselves in the positions Guildford did, however most international wings wouldn't have put themselves in those positions (as you nicely point out)! I often feel that people rate players based entirely on what they do with the ball in hand, ignoring the fact that 99% of the game they don't have the ball in hand; what players do in this 99% of the game can be as important (if not more important) as what they do in the 1% of the game when they have the ball in hand.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Howlett could have been an olympic sprinter, I doubt Guildford is quicker. I do like Guildford, just saying is all.

Cut it out he could not have. He was a sprinter at his school but it wasn't like he was ever setting records or anything nationally for his sprinting times. Howlett was fast, but definitely not materially faster than Guildford.

 

[markshaw]

Disagree with much of this.

1. I'd say New Zealand Franchises had collectively the best season. Two New Zealand teams made the semi finals, the Crusaders may have scored less points overall but they were clearly part of the hardest pool, which can be shown by the number of wins against other conferences by teams that came last in the NZ conference. In fact, every team in the New Zealand conference looked dangerous, with even the Hurricanes beating the Reds.

2. I agree that there is no way Dagg (who was a fringe All Black anyway) did enough to secure a spot in the All Blacks, but there is no way that Tom Marshall should be anywhere near the All Blacks. He did a pretty good job covering Dagg's position, but there is no way that he deserves a spot with outside backs like Ben Smith, Cory Jane, Muliaina and Isaia Toeava clearly all top class players.

3. Robert Fruean is a good player, but it would be hard to argue that he would be a better fit than Nonu, Smith, Kahui and SBW. As previously mentioned, his defense can be pretty woeful. He often looks for the big hit, but too often players just bounce out of his tackles. The try save from Youtube was impressive, but not typical of his defensive skill. He is also about 106kgs (despite what Wikipedia says) and is two inchest shorter than SBW. Also, Conrad Smith has proven time and time again he is a world class centre (probably the best). Sonny Bill Williams is still clearly not the incumbant 12 for the All Blacks, and has not infact been especially impressive for the All Blacks (except against Scotland). There is also no doubt Nonu finished the S15 in better form than SBW, who became pretty quiet. Leaving out Smith would be insane.

4. Rene Ranger is injured now and set to miss the rest of the season anyway. I agree that anyone should have been picked over Zac Guildford, but that's by the way.

5. Luke Braid (once again, despite Wikipedia) is not 6'4'', he's actually just on 6'1'' http://www.theblues.co.nz/players/0-Luke-Braid.aspx. I would have picked Todd or Daniel Braid over him anyway, as he is too inexperiences. If he was picked this season he would become the new Ben Atiga.

6. Adam Thompson scored quite a few tries, but his form towards the end of the season vanished. He looked alright against South Africa, but his physicality is rubbish. He's also not the fastest All Black over 400m, as there is no test for that in the All Blacks. I'd be very suprised if he was quicker than someone like Conrad Smith or Daniel Carter, as they are both much quicker and easily as fit.

7. Zac Guildford is a very, very poor man's Doug Howlett.

8. By rely on picking players on All Black experience and not on S15 form, Cory Jane and Mils Muliaina had their best games in the last two years. I agree that Maitland and probably Matt Todd could make their way into the All Blacks, but players like Marshall?

Best comment I've seen in ages. Hosea and Corey on the wings please

 

[ranger]

Cut it out he could not have. He was a sprinter at his school but it wasn't like he was ever setting records or anything nationally for his sprinting times. Howlett was fast, but definitely not materially faster than Guildford.

Im pretty sure he was NZ 100m champion in his 7th form actually, i dont think he set any records but he was definitely up there with the best sprinters in the country. I also remember seeing an interview with Howlett when he was included in the commonwealth games 7s team, he went over the toss up he had between becoming a sprinter or a rugby player and how he was looking forward to completeing his goal of attaining a medal (all be it in rugby rather than sprinting).

You have to remember when Howlett first came onto the scene as an 18 year old he had a pretty poor workrate and bad defense. The only reason he got a professional contract was because he was one of the quickest guys in the country. As he developed more as a player and added size he became a better footballer but also much slower, age caught up with him too. Perhaps youre comparing Guildfords speed as a youngster with Howletts waning pace at the tail end of his career? At the end of the day, i have to say Howlett was much faster than Guildford.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Im pretty sure he was NZ 100m champion in his 7th form actually, i dont think he set any records but he was definitely up there with the best sprinters in the country. I also remember seeing an interview with Howlett when he was included in the commonwealth games 7s team, he went over the toss up he had between becoming a sprinter or a rugby player and how he was looking forward to completeing his goal of attaining a medal (all be it in rugby rather than sprinting).

You have to remember when Howlett first came onto the scene as an 18 year old he had a pretty poor workrate and bad defense. The only reason he got a professional contract was because he was one of the quickest guys in the country. As he developed more as a player and added size he became a better footballer but also much slower, age caught up with him too. Perhaps youre comparing Guildfords speed as a youngster with Howletts waning pace at the tail end of his career? At the end of the day, i have to say Howlett was much faster than Guildford.

Yeah exactly he never was a standout sprinter meaning he had no realistic chance of being an olympic sprinter. A guy I went to school with was national champion at every level and had so many records it wasn't funny. He captained NZ's junior olympic team in 6th form and 7th form. He was also a very good rugby player but gave it up to try become a sprinter. He coincidentally raced Howlett as a 17year old (granted Howlett would've been about 24 so might've slowed down a bit) over 100m and beat him. Well anyway this guy never became an olympic sprinter despite being much faster than Dougie so I don't think it was ever on the cards for Howlett. He was very fast, however Guildford and Maitland would have to be the 2 quickest in NZ (despite what people say about rokocoko) so I really don't think Howlett was ever much quicker than Guildford currently is.

 

[nickdnz]

At NickDnz:

I really don;t get the guildford hate. He is one of the quickest guys in NZ rugby, has a massive work rate and a low error rate. What isn't to like? He is real similar to Doug Howlett, but faster. What did howlett do that Guildford doesn't?

A. Howlett was so much faster back in the day. As mentioned he was a NZ schoolboy champion in sprinting. Zac Guildford has no sprinting background.
B. Doug Howlett scored a truck load of tries. Like, a silly amount. I think he's still the highest try scorer in S15 history, and he is certainly the highest try scorer in All Blacks history. Guildford managed what? 4 tries this Super Rugby season? Less than Sean Maitland, Hosea Gear, Israel Dagg, Rene Ranger and Jared Payne (keep in mind Hosea Gear and Israel Dagg missed most of the season with injury, playing almost half as many games)

 

[Darwin]

A. Howlett was so much faster back in the day. As mentioned he was a NZ schoolboy champion in sprinting. Zac Guildford has no sprinting background.

B. Doug Howlett scored a truck load of tries. Like, a silly amount. I think he's still the highest try scorer in S15 history, and he is certainly the highest try scorer in All Blacks history. Guildford managed what? 4 tries this Super Rugby season? Less than Sean Maitland, Hosea Gear, Israel Dagg, Rene Ranger and Jared Payne (keep in mind Hosea Gear and Israel Dagg missed most of the season with injury, playing almost half as many games)

Yes, he also played for a number of seasons! Howlett scored 59 tries in 108 matches (0.55 match). That gives him a slight edge on Guildford with 19 tries in 40 matches (0.48 match), but it is not that substantial at all... (if Guildford had scored 3 more tries they would have an identical ratio). If Guildford plays 108 matches he could well get close to Howlett's record. If we are talking about try scoring ratios, it would be silly not to mention Hosea Gear, who has scored 26 tries in 63 matches (0.41 tries per match)....

Guildford scored 5 tries this season (in 15 matches). He certainly didn't have a great year try scoring wise, but he did miss out on one against the Highlanders (where he probably would have been awarded a try if the ref had goon to the TMO), and he threw the last pass in at least 5 tries as well... It doesn't really matter who in the teams scores the tries, as long as they are being scored! Hosea Gear did have a better year in terms of try scoring, with 6 tries in 12 matches (only three less matches than Guildford, despite what you suggest)...

 

[ranger]

Yeah exactly he never was a standout sprinter meaning he had no realistic chance of being an olympic sprinter. A guy I went to school with was national champion at every level and had so many records it wasn't funny. He captained NZ's junior olympic team in 6th form and 7th form. He was also a very good rugby player but gave it up to try become a sprinter. He coincidentally raced Howlett as a 17year old (granted Howlett would've been about 24 so might've slowed down a bit) over 100m and beat him. Well anyway this guy never became an olympic sprinter despite being much faster than Dougie so I don't think it was ever on the cards for Howlett. He was very fast, however Guildford and Maitland would have to be the 2 quickest in NZ (despite what people say about rokocoko) so I really don't think Howlett was ever much quicker than Guildford currently is.

Being the NZ champion sort of makes you a stand-out i would imagine..Not on the world stage but better than Guildford at least. I agree that Olympics is a huge stretch, but just because hes not one of the fastest men in the world doesnt mean Guildford is. Also you are right about Howlett slowing down a bit at 24, the comparision between him then and him at Guildfords age would be dramatic, and not really a fair comparison.

I have played against Guildford a few times, and while hes got serious gas, he didnt really strike me as a freak like Howlett seemed to be. His strength was in being one of the quickest on the field, as well as being one of the biggest and picking perfect lines and angles. Just from my teams that played him i can tell you Jackson Ormond and Cody Rei had him well and truely matched for raw pace.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Being the NZ champion sort of makes you a stand-out i would imagine..Not on the world stage but better than Guildford at least. I agree that Olympics is a huge stretch, but just because hes not one of the fastest men in the world doesnt mean Guildford is. Also you are right about Howlett slowing down a bit at 24, the comparision between him then and him at Guildfords age would be dramatic, and not really a fair comparison.

I have played against Guildford a few times, and while hes got serious gas, he didnt really strike me as a freak like Howlett seemed to be. His strength was in being one of the quickest on the field, as well as being one of the biggest and picking perfect lines and angles. Just from my teams that played him i can tell you Jackson Ormond and Cody Rei had him well and truely matched for raw pace.

There's a different one each year though.. unless he won it multiple times or broke records he doesn;t really standout more than any other national champ that didn't achieve anything else in sprinting.

I've watched Cody Rei a few times (for Harbour) and never seen him show pace at all really so I'll take your word for it. I am still of the mind Maitland and Guildford are the fastest two guys in pro rugby in NZ. Did you play him at school? He isn't very big so I would have to assume so given you reckon he was one of the biggest on the field?

 

[donmcdazzle]

A. Howlett was so much faster back in the day. As mentioned he was a NZ schoolboy champion in sprinting. Zac Guildford has no sprinting background.
B. Doug Howlett scored a truck load of tries. Like, a silly amount. I think he's still the highest try scorer in S15 history, and he is certainly the highest try scorer in All Blacks history. Guildford managed what? 4 tries this Super Rugby season? Less than Sean Maitland, Hosea Gear, Israel Dagg, Rene Ranger and Jared Payne (keep in mind Hosea Gear and Israel Dagg missed most of the season with injury, playing almost half as many games)

How much faster is that? Like 2-3m over 100m or like 10m over 100m? Cause you're crazy of you think Howlett would beat Guildford by any substantial distance over 100m, even less over 50 odd. So a statement like "so much faster" is a bit extreme. Also not having a sprinting background doesn't make you any less fast - maybe he focussed on rugby and didn't worry about sprinting? I certainly know guys from school that weren't sprinters but had serious pace on the field.