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Transfers 2014/15

Racing Metro throw alot of money at their team and where ****e. Bristol throw money at their team and can't even get promoted, you need alot more than just money you need chemistry and a style of play that works for you. They brought alot of players and now have this core of guys they are trying to keep, i'm not saying that they haven't spent money but just because they spent the money doesn't mean they buy success as most of the french teams are the like that.
 
^It took about 6 years of ownership before Toulon won anything - Lorenzetti only started chucking cash at Racing about two years ago (?).
Bristol's owner has only been around in his current capacity since 2012.
Sarries SA owners came in in what...? 2008/9?
 
I see where some of you are coming from but money does not buy success but it certainly helps, PSA got Toulon promotion but it more or less stopped there,and they did not even qualify for the H Cup for a couple of seasons. Once you buy or sign the big name players you have to fit the unit together, unlike in football one player can score once which wins the game, in rugby, that just is not going to happen. Toulon have come together now as a very good team because of what happens behind the scenes and on the training pitch, everybody has a massive role to play, the guys who are never seen in the lime light, the guys who never see much credit for the job they do, and lots are voluntary. Firstly money will not get everyone in a team, some certainly, there has to be a whole lot of other equations before a player signs. At Toulon where PSA failed to win any silverware of significance, Laport has won already 3 massive trophies, and there is good reason that it may continue, unfortunately for the rest of us , buts thats life. At Montpellier i see the problems all time that we have with are foreigners when they arrive there are so many problems obviously the main one is the language, once that is mastered there are many more, and cultures are also very different, to get that unit into good working order, it take time and effort by many people. Money is a great asset but so many other things have to be in place before success is recognised.
 
Yeah gotta disagree that Toulon haven't bought success. Put a group if class players together for and hit their primes for long enough instead of journeymen filtering in and out and you'll inevitably have a class team. If Racing can hold a team of that standard, they will be class.
I think any team could build success in the circumstances and will in the future.
 
Racing Metro throw alot of money at their team and where ****e. Bristol throw money at their team and can't even get promoted, you need alot more than just money you need chemistry and a style of play that works for you. They brought alot of players and now have this core of guys they are trying to keep, i'm not saying that they haven't spent money but just because they spent the money doesn't mean they buy success as most of the french teams are the like that.

No French team is quite like that.

Obviously it takes more than paying players a lot of money for the team to be good. But you're kidding yourself if you don't look at those lists of names and see anything other than buying success. The total number of international caps Toulon's squad have is over 1,137. The most experienced test side ever named was the All Blacks which boasted 853 test caps. If Toulon wished they could put out a team (with everyone in the right positions) of 917 caps in the starting XV. Halfpenny is injured so they buy Hernandez. It's a joke. Their bench looks like most international starting teams..
 
Toulon, Racing Metro, Toulouse, Clermont, Stade all have similar budgets, though who knows if they stick too them. And the international caps thing kind of works, but you have players like Juan Smith, Giteau, Williams and Michalak who are all well past their best. That's close to 300 caps from players past their best, a lot of the team aren't current international status. Also signing Hernandez as a replacement for O'Connor is a joke ? Thought he would be on much less. Anyway the point i was trying to make is that why haven't Clermont won anything ? Toulouse look crap at the moment, Racing same and Stade didn't get the top 6. Yes they have a lot of players with international experience but they haven't got thhe world 15 by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Toulon, Racing Metro, Toulouse, Clermont, Stade all have similar budgets, though who knows if they stick too them.

What?

The caliber of player that Toulon has brought in, on the whole, is higher than the other teams you've mentioned.
 
the NBA is a fantastic landscape to prove the "money buys success" is very limited. Won't go into detail because it's a Rugby forum, but super teams have been assembled and have failed miserably.
Committed players and great coaching can knock money-towers down with ease, and this goes against me but just look at Munster smashing Toulouse last year, almost put 50 past them. You look at the two rosters, it's incomparable. Munster do amazingly well considering their roster - which isn't puny, mind you, but very humble compared to a Stade Toulousain.
If you look at the fact that Leinster for e.g. are basically the Irish national team, benefit from all the quality individually but also that chemistry and deeply engrained common culture, very good coaching - truth is Toulon had a ton of old guys and some French guys (of which only Bastareaud really world class) and won because of their commitment, team culture and hunger. They were nothing like Toulouse who would merely try to overpower their opponents and play it easy, like when they lost at home to Connacht, the worst Irish team last year during the H Cup pools.

Principles are good, but this is sports, it's business. Yes of course buying good players is going to help you, but there's a way to do it. There's a way to keep them once they're there, Wilko didn't stay all this time because of money, not his type. There's a way to know which player will do you good, as some of the world's best may not fit your roster, or the mindset you wish for. Boudjellal makes a point to interview and study up every guy he hires, coach or player or anyone. It was a gamble to use so many guys from abroad, whose cultures both Rugby and identity-wise were so different, were old, some called washed up. Juan Smith was broken and found a second wind in Toulon, a resurrection. Rossouw wasn't in vogue. Bastareaud was a train wreck before joining this new club. Craig Burden was a nobody before joining, they went to pick that unknown 3rd or 4th pick from some Saffer club, took the chance, that's one HECK of a gamble. They went to pick Menini from a dying Biarritz club, and he's now playing for France at loosehead. This year, they picked up Barcela whom New Zealanders will remember from that mid-2009 series we had in NZ, again from Biarritz. They've kept giant Carl Hayman who is now captain, although aging and not as dominant. You see, there's a real team culture.
Not to mention they've made Chiocci into a relevant prop, Bruni and Orioli are now respectable players at any level, all 3 pure Toulon products, Chilachava also the GEO prop a local product - and will supply 8 players (in 30) for France's training camp imminently.

Money is a big factor, and I'm certain Boudjellal is avoiding caps and limits somehow although everybody keeps saying that's impossible and everything is locked up and monitored...but there's much, much more.

Castres are in the bottom half budget wise in the Top 14, and they beat all the big teams all the way to the final in '13 and beat even Toulon there. They did the same again the following year (ended Clermont's invincible streak in the volcano on the way) and gave Toulon one heck of a war in the final, again, but lost this time. Castres had really good players too on paper, it's not like Toulon had anyone head and shoulders above Castres. Some could say Wilko because he scored all the points from the boot, and that was a difference maker...but otherwise, two very competitive, French-styled Top 14 clubs going at it for the Brennus.
Toulon didn't have 2 Lomus and Cullen, a 20yo Dan Carter, Galthié at 9, Jauzion and Conrad Smith, 3 Pococks and 2 Nicolas Mas as props...they had a mix of aging former stars, some pretty average players but really good coaching and a culture of excellence.
 
Toulon, Racing Metro, Toulouse, Clermont, Stade all have similar budgets, though who knows if they stick too them..

Unlike other countries there is official regulation of the finances of clubs in France and any irregularities mean demotion of at least and possibly two divisions. Happened to Bourgoin two years ago and twice Biarritz has had to seek emergency funding to avoid penalties. There is no doubt, in France anyway, that budgets are enforced in France!!
 
lets not gloss over the great coaching work of Bernard Laporte (who speaks limited English) to mold his players into a TEAM playing for each other. To create a real team ethos. You can't buy that with money. Toulon produced oodles of it last season when the going got tough. They showed solidarity, cohesion, leadership. You don't get these with just a cheque book. Maybe if they win another double or a 3rd HCup, naysayers will stop the caricature as it's no longer relevant.

I sometimes wonder: how did Laporte do it?

how many coaches in NZ or elsewhere would succeed in same job at Toulon? I'd say not very many.

Laporte should have been nominated for best coach in Europe for his double last season.

contrast his success with Saint Andre's complete failure to do the same with a group of players from same country.
 
How can you enforce a budget? Unless you are talking about a minimum - which the clubs mentioned clearly don't need to worry about?

I'm lost.

I know that clubs need to make profits otherwise there are penalties, but I'm not sure what you're talking about other than that?
 
lets not gloss over the great coaching work of Bernard Laporte (who speaks limited English) to mold his players into a TEAM playing for each other. To create a real team ethos. You can't buy that with money. Toulon produced oodles of it last season when the going got tough. They showed solidarity, cohesion, leadership. You don't get these with just a cheque book. Maybe if they win another double or a 3rd HCup, naysayers will stop the caricature as it's no longer relevant.

I sometimes wonder: how did Laporte do it?

how many coaches in NZ or elsewhere would succeed in same job at Toulon? I'd say not very many.

Laporte should have been nominated for best coach in Europe for his double last season.

contrast his success with Saint Andre's complete failure to do the same with a group of players from same country.

yep, not to forget coaches Mignoni (backs) and Delmas (fronts ? - ok, forwards) yelling on the sideline and looking like it's their own children out there playing every night. There's just a culture of excellence in Toulon where every single little aspect, detail - every inch in Rugby lore, every corner there is to know, every market there is to speculate; just all things, psychological or more concrete - are met. Everything is studied and made to be the most convenient and simple.

It took me time to understand this, as I was like many others before, completely ignorant of all such things in Toulon, unintelligently judging; much easier to just blame blame blame when a team is winning and from afar looks like all their success derives from a cheque book only. Much easier to point fingers and not try harder to consider the actual facts, sit down and really try to understand how they did it; a much more convenient shortcut to create a scapegoat, much less of a headache.

At the end of the day: you have a team, you buy a team, own a team, coach a team - TO WIN. They're playing within the rules (I think..) or at very least are not unique at all in what they do and do not possess so much (more) that it is strictly unthinkable for others to take them down and take what they have. They're the best club in France, the best club in Europe, possibly more; and that's all the other teams need to know. They need to put their heads down, and work, and maybe they'll be at Toulon's level and take what is currently theirs: the European Cup and the Brennus.
 
If I looked player v player Clermont have the best team and Toulouse is pretty close.

What...pretty clearly not.

I'm pretty clearly missing something here - as it would seem to me that anyone who knows ***** about rugby would look at that roster and see the a load of World XV players over the last five seasons bought and paid for.
 
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How can you enforce a budget? Unless you are talking about a minimum - which the clubs mentioned clearly don't need to worry about?

I'm lost.

I know that clubs need to make profits otherwise there are penalties, but I'm not sure what you're talking about other than that?

What you are saying is actually not true, the clubs do not have to make a profit, they cannot be in the red, there is a big difference!!!! if they are in deficit then funds have to be found from other sources ie: the President or Sponsors parteners etc..At the end of the season the books must balance with no losses.If the DNGC control the club and the deficit is large they can be given a period of time to find the funding to repair the issue,( Biarritz last season) or if they cannot, they could be relegated 2 divisions or get a very hefty fine. Toulon is one club that is auto financed as announced by its Preident, Boudjellal on many occaisons, we at Montpellier are very near to it and hopefully will be by the end of the season. In France the auditing of rugby clubs is a very complexed affair, and if mistakes are made the consequences are normally very difficult for the clubs to overcome. (eg Montauban Bourgoin relegated 2 divs below) in recent years. The clubs are free to make their own budgets as big as they want but the salary cap remains the same for everyone 10 million â'¬'s, but this includes everyone not just the players, also the academies, unless a different association is created. Thats it more or less in a nutshell and all this cars, employing families free meals, is absolute bull it does not happen, cars are provided for some players but they do publicity work for the companies or in many cases pay for them themselves. Our players lunch together 2/3 times a week it is taken out of their wages. Players are well paid thats for sure, but the rugby days do not last forever, but they are not that many freebies as some people think.
 
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What...pretty clearly not.

I'm pretty clearly missing something here - as it would seem to me that anyone who knows ***** about rugby would look at that roster and see the a load of World XV players over the last five seasons bought and paid for.
Domingo v Chiocci/ Kayser v Burden/ Zirakashvili v Hayman/ Vahaamahina v Botha / Cudmore v Suta/ Chouly v Smith/ Lapandry v Armitage
/ Lee v Lobbe / Parra v Tillous-Borde/ James v Giteau/ Nalaga v Habana/ Fofana v O'Connor/ Davies v Basta/ Guilford v Mitchell/ Abendanon v Halfpenny
Their starting 15s up against each other and I would say that Clermonts is actually better. Also no need to be rude, it doesn't add to your argument or take away from mine.
 
^ good post, but I'd definitely have Bastareaud over Davies, and as far as within the Top 14, Nalaga definitely above Habana. Also agree with your Tighthead assessment. And right now, not too sure Botha>Vahaa, and right now this very moment Camille Lopez is playing phenomenal Rugby at 10 for Clermont, while starting more than Brock James. Not saying he's better than Giteau, but he's way up there in the Top 3 flyhalves at the moment in the T14.

And yes please Saffycen stop being rude to ppl online you've never met. Says a lot about your character...shame on you !
 
Domingo v Chiocci/ Kayser v Burden/ Zirakashvili v Hayman/ Vahaamahina v Botha / Cudmore v Suta/ Chouly v Smith/ Lapandry v Armitage
/ Lee v Lobbe / Parra v Tillous-Borde/ James v Giteau/ Nalaga v Habana/ Fofana v O'Connor/ Davies v Basta/ Guilford v Mitchell/ Abendanon v Halfpenny
Their starting 15s up against each other and I would say that Clermonts is actually better. Also no need to be rude, it doesn't add to your argument or take away from mine.

Hayman isn't better than Zirakashvili huh...

I'd also take Burden over Kayser, Smith over Chouly, Mitchell 1000000x over Guildford. I think you're being very generous to many Clermont players.

As for my comment, I was making the point that Toulon's roster are filled with as many rugby players close to house hold names as possible. Not trying to imply you didn't know anything about rugby...

Regardless I believe Toulon's results support my assessment that they have the better players, particularly when you look at their depth.
 
A lot of the players are 50/50 calls, I would still have Kayser over Burden and Chouly is the form back row in the Top 14 at the moment, where as Smith tried to play against Argentina and was abysmal. Mitchell v Guilford...much of a muchness both pretty similar but the point I make is that the teams are closer player for player than what a lot of people say. I think the reason they have won so much is that they have a great coaching set up and they have built the environment that the players thrive in. You only have to watch the HCup 2013 final to see that they are more than a bunch of mercenaries
 

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