The Ulster Thread

[Leonormous Boozer]

A very good piece of business by them in signing a player in a problem position and forcing one of their rivals most influential player out, **** logic by the IRFU, players in other positions improve by getting to play with a world class operator.

Scrum half is a position that is very badly coached over here, being able to pass and not being useful elsewhere is how to get in to the position, your service being quick, decision making, box kicking etc... are all left to the kid's own accord, we've never had a 9 without a glaring weakness in his game because of this.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Why can Leinster have Nacewa but Ulster can't have Ruan?

I mean the fact that Leinster have 2 NIQ in one position should make it worse?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Why can Leinster have Nacewa but Ulster can't have Ruan?

I mean the fact that Leinster have 2 NIQ in one position should make it worse?

I think there's three back three spots, Munster don't have an NIQ back three player off the top of my head and Leinster and Ulster have three between them.

 

[BPM]

I'd imagine they are and finding the same answers all the other Irish scouts are - good IQ 9s are like hens teeth. Seemingly its just not in your DNA.

There's a lot of excitement about Jonny Stewart, who's being tipped to enter the academy straight out of school, so fingers crossed. But then I've seen a lot of young Ulster SH hype over the years and so far - zilch. Nada. Nothing.

I imagine Ulster's answer will be to try and lift one of Connacht's two but no guarantees there.

It doesn't seem to be in our English DNA either to be honest Peat ...

Stringer and Murray are both good 9s, but like England, Ireland are pretty much looking at one decent Scrum Half per generation which is a real indictment on our game.

Ulster could do worse than looking at Niall Saunders. He's rated fairly highly at Quins, but with several established 9s ahead of him, he'll be unlikely to make the breakthrough any time soon. They've recently taken Kieran Treadwell from the Quins academy, so why not Saunders? He's got good pedigree from his dad and has been decent for the U20s.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think there's three back three spots, Munster don't have an NIQ back three player off the top of my head and Leinster and Ulster have three between them.

Well 4 but Ulster got special treatment over Ludik's new deal as he close to IQ.

But people missing point in that you can't sign a NIQ 9 if you just had one. That's what we were told when in process of replacing BJ.

 

[profitius]

The IRFU are correct in what they're doing. Simply put, the IRFU are trying to force the provinces to become self sufficient. That means finding solutions to problems. It's up to the province's to use more brains and less money.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The IRFU are correct in what they're doing. Simply put, the IRFU are trying to force the provinces to become self sufficient. That means finding solutions to problems. It's up to the province's to use more brains and less money.

You also can't just pull players that are either ready or of quality out of thin air, It's all well and good if there is a genuine prospect coming up but if not your risking giving the team **** service which will not exactly help the rest of the team.

To me it's cutting off your nose to despite your face.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

You also can't just pull players that are either ready or of quality out of thin air, It's all well and good if there is a genuine prospect coming up but if not your risking giving the team **** service which will not exactly help the rest of the team.

To me it's cutting off your nose to despite your face.

I agree, it's also completely unfair on everyone involved to force an established and long term player out of his club and the country. Pienaar is an Ulster player, he absolutely loves it there and both the player and the employer want him to stay for the benefit of everyone yet he can't because Leinster have a player who'll likely cover for a guy who'll be in the Irelamd squad in international periods. It's completely illogical to harm one of the provinces chances of success for this, it was the same with Nathan Hines.

 

[Peat]

I agree, it's also completely unfair on everyone involved to force an established and long term player out of his club and the country. Pienaar is an Ulster player, he absolutely loves it there and both the player and the employer want him to stay for the benefit of everyone yet he can't because Leinster have a player who'll likely cover for a guy who'll be in the Irelamd squad in international periods. It's completely illogical to harm one of the provinces chances of success for this, it was the same with Nathan Hines.

The Hines case is a great comparable. Leinster were forced to chop him despite having no obvious replacement. The result? Leinster end up constantly chopping and changing between a series of mediocre second rows. Did Ireland gain? Given that Leinster haven't had a lock given a debut cap since then (I think I'm right, think McCarthy got his at Connacht), probably not.

Do Ulster have a player to promote into the breach? Nnnnnnope.

I can vaguely sorta live with the IRFU limiting Ulster's lock options when we're sitting on three young potential internationals and Hendy. You can see where the gain happens. It will be a very pleasant surprise if anything good comes from this.

 

[munstermuffin]

We were same he with Paul Warwick who was more Irish than the other 2 as he didn't play internationally and again this year with a THP. And there is Irish props elsewhere but well that's life we get on with it. If Leinster use a foreign spot on a cover 9 isn't that poor business on their behalf as it's nowhere near guaranteed McGrath will be in irish 23s much.

 

[Peat]

At least with Warwick you had young Irish players of a reasonable standard waiting to benefit. Not that the national team benefited much from that either.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

We were same he with Paul Warwick who was more Irish than the other 2 as he didn't play internationally and again this year with a THP. And there is Irish props elsewhere but well that's life we get on with it. If Leinster use a foreign spot on a cover 9 isn't that poor business on their behalf as it's nowhere near guaranteed McGrath will be in irish 23s much.

Is it really nowhere near guaranteed? After Murray and Marmion, McGrath and McCarthy are the best 9's in the country for me (Not that that's high praise whatsoever), Cooney could challenge if he found form that he hasn't shown since Leinster were winning Heineken Cups.

 

[Groundhog]

Any move which actively lowers the competitiveness of a province is ****ing braindead by the IRFU. This "everything for the national side" mentality should be put down like the lame horse it is. We can't be strong nationally without strong provinces. This is just a decision with no upside unless Nucifora manages to convince Cooney to move north, and even then he needs some time deputising a good scrum half and taking a gradual step into top rugby.

 

[profitius]

Rules are rules. If the IRFU let the provinces sign who they want we wouldn't have the talent coming through that we currently have.

The IRFU are looking to do things the NZ way rather than the French way.

 

[Groundhog]

Rules are rules. If the IRFU let the provinces sign who they want we wouldn't have the talent coming through that we currently have.

The IRFU are looking to do things the NZ way rather than the French way.

Hahahahaha except he's not a new signing. He has roots down here and has been here for years. All very well letting young talent have a shot if it actually exists. Just forcing Pienaar out isn't going to make a top class player out of players without the necessary talent. The difference between us and the NZ club is that they do have constant talent coming through constantly, and they're the world's top team. Hence they can afford to just rely on what they produce.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean Munster badly need a tight head prop but sure look Archer and John Ryan will surely become top class players just because there's no foreign players in front of them. That's how it works after all.

 

[munstermuffin]

Is it really nowhere near guaranteed? After Murray and Marmion, McGrath and McCarthy are the best 9's in the country for me (Not that that's high praise whatsoever), Cooney could challenge if he found form that he hasn't shown since Leinster were winning Heineken Cups.

Well if you read comment correct then you'd see yeah it's nowhere near guaranteed (as you just agreed with I'm guessing) and he won't miss too many Leinster games. So to use a NIQ spot on the hope a young 9 breaks in to Irish 23 and is gone for a lot of year is kind of a waste.

 

[munstermuffin]

Hahahahaha except he's not a new signing. He has roots down here and has been here for years. All very well letting young talent have a shot if it actually exists. Just forcing Pienaar out isn't going to make a top class player out of players without the necessary talent. The difference between us and the NZ club is that they do have constant talent coming through constantly, and they're the world's top team. Hence they can afford to just rely on what they produce.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean Munster badly need a tight head prop but sure look Archer and John Ryan will surely become top class players just because there's no foreign players in front of them. That's how it works after all.

On end its not about saying they forcing guys out but using Munster for example. We knew BJ was going and we couldn't keep him. It forced us to develop e both guys mentioned at a faster rate which got Archer near some national squads and Ryan improved hugely.
Are both world class or good enough starters? No but it meant we can't keep going for foreign THP and hoping it'll be ok. We got lucky with The Bull and when he went and fact we'd nobody continuing to come through we suffered and that's the root of it. Ulster did same here regards a 9 I think.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well if you read comment correct then you'd see yeah it's nowhere near guaranteed (as you just agreed with I'm guessing) and he won't miss too many Leinster games. So to use a NIQ spot on the hope a young 9 breaks in to Irish 23 and is gone for a lot of year is kind of a waste.

I did read it wrong, I still don't think it's a waste. We need three nines in the squad because McGrath will be in extended squads at least and to cover injury, I'd also wager that he'll oust Marmion over the next two years. Gibson Park is quite highly rated so I think we'll see one of two outcomes, he'll take the starting spot himself or McGrath will start ahead of him and improve his game to the level that will get him the 21 spot for the national side. Worst case scenario, we don't have to go digging for 9's in the academy who aren't good enough for provincial rugby, it was an essential buy and there weren't any suitable Irish candidates.

 

[Peat]

I am completely unclear as to whether you're supporting this rule or not MM.

Certainly, Munster's experience of BJ Botha going is yet another good example of how this thing is harmful to Irish rugby

Effect on Munster rugby - Negative
Effect on Ireland rugby - SFA. Archer getting near a few squads does not equal a positive outcome.

It harms the provinces and does nothing for the national team. Again and again we've seen players forced out - lets not mince matters, that is what they are doing - and again and again nothing good has come of it. Forcing out Pienaar is simply the most high profile and nonsensical move to date.

If the IRFU really want to take steps towards a stronger Ireland team, then forcing out guys like Wee P who aren't integral to a province and offer nothing to Ireland would be far more sensible. Or setting the provinces a minimum amount of gametime that they have to give to youngsters. Or even just targeting the refusal of big NIQ signings to places where there's actually a young Irishman to take advantage (the provinces of Scholes, Stockdale and Lyttle really needed Piutau...). Or maybe ensuring that project players are actually of some use to the Irish team.

Anything that's actually useful and not greatly harmful to the provinces really.

 

[Groundhog]

Botha's case I'm not quite so salty about for his sake as he had other offers waiting on the table which were probably better for him at the end of his career and his standard of play was slipping a fair bit. The rug wasn't quite so needlessly pulled out from under us this time, but at the same time we've brought in a total journeyman in Andress only because he's Irish qualified. He'll never step near an Irish squad, so how is his acquisition any less harmful than an NIQ signing?