The "South African Quota" catch-all thread

[TheOvalBall]

From a non-Saffa

For me, they should be clear 2nd in the world. That's the position they've occupied for most of my time alive (when not 1st) and its because they've usually been a clear 2nd when it comes to player production. That's because, insofar as I can tell, nowhere outside of New Zealand has so many people who grow up so deeply entrenched in rugby culture. Nobody lives up to their potential all the time but there's a clear gulf between where they usually are and currently are.

Some good points there.

 

[Ospervat]

Fine by me. Our problem can be easily solved, I think the general rugby public would agree on that. If we focus on picking players on merit, and not let politics have a say in our sport, then we're about 80% on our way of rectifying the damage. It's really that simple.



Coetzee says that it was the media that made it up: http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/RugbyChampionship/what-sos-have-i-sent-coetzee-20160926

I guess the media could be up to tricks but if we see a few consultant coaches coming in anytime soon we'll know whether it was true or not.

It does state in the piece as follows

"The request is being handled as highly confidential and even secret, as it could reflect negatively on the current coaching staff and their work"

I can understand if AC denies any knowledge.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I guess the media could be up to tricks but if we see a few consultant coaches coming in anytime soon we'll know whether it was true or not.

Yeah, and that it was the Rapport newspaper who broke that story makes me think that there might be a bit more truth to it than what AC is letting on. Perhaps they're waiting to see what happens on Saturday before the consultants are brought in...

 

[welshglory]

Some good points there.

True but it's also fair to say that Wales, Ireland, Argentina have all improved dramatically over the last 10 years in particular, England are returning to their potential. Professionalism has had a large effect on standards improving across the board. South Africa and Australia are no longer head and shoulders above the next group of nations.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

A different take from Planet Rugby on the same story about AC's coaching headache, indicating that this is another issue that may not be about race (as some of the above articles appear to be suggesting):

"The current situation is arguably a result of the Springboks' budget being strained this year, after failing to secure a consistant sponsor following the departure of ABSA, therefore denying Coetzee the expansive selection of staff that his predecessor was given due to budget constraints."

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/coetzee-asks-for-more-coaches/

Strange to see other articles above saying "this guy doesn't have experience at test level". Every single player and coach didn't have experience at test level at one point, including Eddie Jones and Steve Hansen.

Also, if De Allende is considered white, then my head count of their last team had 5 out of the 23 as being non-white. Even further away from the alleged quota of 7 out of 23. In the game day thread when the team was announced that appeared to have not gone unnoticed, with suggestions AC might be sticking two fingers up to the Sports Minister.

That is one possible explanation, but an alternative is that AC is, like his predecessor, free to select players based on merit. If there is a quota in place regarding 7 out of 23 players, then lets be completely clear; there then has to be 7 non-white players in the squad or it is not a quota in any way, shape or form. It'll be interesting to see the team selection this upcoming week and play the numbers game.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

No sanctions? Then why did this happen: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...rugby-cricket-banned-from-hosting-tournaments

That is a fair point, and exactly the sort of article that adds to discussion on this topic (I can imagine a scenario where the Sports Minister comes under increased pressure to implement quotas in the future as a political sop to the ANC's political base). But to flip it round, if quotas were in place, and current team selections were not on merit, then the sports minister would have no reason to take this action. So this arguably is a further sign either that:

a) quotas are not in place for the Springboks
OR
b) if there are quotas, the SARU are electing not to implement them, either in full or in part.

Either way, there is a good chance there are no quotas actively in place with the national team.

Any valid reason why is Mzwandile Stick part of the Bok coaching staff? Note AC didn't choose his coaching staff, SARU did.

Yes, as per my above post, there is a suggestion that coaching selection may be limited due to reduced funding. As with other problems in SA rugby, I'd argue that it may also be to do with economics, rather than race. Maybe Mr Stick is getting paid one sixth of a white coach? p sorry, couldn't resist - not a serious point and I fully appreciate that economic disparities don't disappear overnight)


Quotas in Super Rugby

In other news, I focus on the international side because it is the one that is easiest to observe. So I took my search elsewhere to see if I could find solid evidence of specific quotas (rather than targets). I have read comments that the Lions have very limited numbers of "non-white" players too, indicating perhaps that quotas are also not in place in Super Rugby and that player selection there is based on merit. Summed up neatly by this headline:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinio...dn-t-meet-quota-Highlanders-face-messy-period

"That's simply because, under the push for transformation, they do not have enough players of colour; just three in the starting side and one on the bench (13 per cent of the 23 man squad) that rolled the Highlanders last week."

I think that website is hopelessly confused or mistaken on the matter of SA quotas I might add, but it was the first article I could find to reinforce my point that quotas clearly don't appear to have been in force in Super Rugby last season.

Some argued above that, if quotas or change is to be implemented, it must come from the bottom and youth / age group rugby rather than from the top down. Well, the bottom up seems to be the only place where quotas can be happening from what I am seeing so far as Super Rugby and now Test Rugby have teams that are clearly in breach of any alleged quota.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Can't blame ABSA for leaving. They haven't been getting their money's worth for a while now.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I guess the media could be up to tricks but if we see a few consultant coaches coming in anytime soon we'll know whether it was true or not.

It does state in the piece as follows

"The request is being handled as highly confidential and even secret, as it could reflect negatively on the current coaching staff and their work"

I can understand if AC denies any knowledge.

Just an update... Louis Koen has been brought in as a consultant-coach for the Kicking department. Reports suggest that AC is not allowed to get help from outside the mobi-unit. And that Louis Koen is part of the Mobi-unit and can therefore assist. Seems like Rapport was right... http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/RugbyChampionship/koen-to-save-bok-kicking-game-20160927


@Bruce_ma_goose

You have to bear in mind that the quota-system is implemented with the eye on the 2019 Rugby World Cup, with the expectation of having 50% representation at the World Cup being black players.

Now against New Zealand we did have only 5 players of colour, but against Australia we had 8. Against Argentina in the first game we also had 8 and in the away game in Salta we had 7.

So basically the New Zealand match is the odd one out, which brings the question. Did AC on purpose left out some of the coloured players against the All Blacks to field his strongest available team, or was it purely rotational?

As for the coaching team, I can understand the budget constraints due to a lack of having a big name sponsor. But again, it brings in the question as to why the big names are not sponsoring the Springboks? Could it perhaps be that the big companies are not agreeing on the manner in which SA Sport is being influenced? That they want to sponsor a team synonymous with winning instead of the race profile it's trying to achieve??

The big question mark in the coaching line-up is Mzwandile Stick. His coaching experience prior to being appointed assistant Springbok coach was that he coached the U/19 Southern Kings backline. So clearly there is a reason why we are up in arms. And his lack of experience and to an extent, his knowledge is showing on the field. There are plenty of more qualified coaches in SA for that post, but they were overlooked. AC didn't even select him, he was a SARU appointed coach. He basically didn't even had an interview when applying for the job.

All these other articles some are posting here, that is disregarding the quota system, might have a valid point here or there, but it's going to take a lot more convincing to sway me and the general SA public to think that the quota system is not a direct influence on our failures.

Remember that the quota system was introduced officially, by our Sports Minister just before the RWC last year, and the purpose was to start the process on being prepared for 2019. As the years pass by, there will be more and more coloured players in the Springbok team and Super Rugby team in order to reach the targets for 2019.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Thanks, and I do know about the 50% pledge and I can see why it gets alarm bells ringing (personally I'd settle for say 25% as that would have been plenty in my mind to help contribute to a broader uptake of the sport in the country). But three years out from the next RWC surely, if there is any hope of implementing a quota, they'd have to be blooding a lot of new non-white talent to have any realistic chance of getting near that 50% level? There is no sign of it really happening and this year would have been the perfect year as there is a new coach and there are so many old hands have retired after the RWC (as I am led to believe). I can see no way that 5, 6 or 7 non-whites in the 23 is remotely on track for 50% by RWC 2019. It might not even be on track for 7 out of 23 for 2019!

I know I'm probably coming across as pedantic, but the sports minister announced the 50% target for RWC 2019 (rather than a quota). As I say, targets aren't binding and I'm fairly confident that unless the ANC changes its position, there is no prospect of them making that target (which is probably what their internal report said and why rubgy, cricket, netball unions are now banned from applying for their next World Cups).


A friendly wager?

We are miles away from the next world cup, so I appreciate it if nobody is interested. But I'd be happy to put my reputation (and/or a wee bit of money) where my mouth is and would happily wager the following:

i) There will not be 50% (or more) non-white players in the South Africa squad at the next RWC in 2019 (thereby missing that target/quota)

ii) There will be other occassions between now and the next RWC when the South African national side will have less than 7 non-white players in the squad of 23 (thereby missing that quota/target on at least one further occassion)

iii) There will be other occassions between now and the next RWC when the South African Super Rugby sides will have less than 7 non-white players in the squad of 23 (thereby missing that target/quota on at least one further occassion)

If any of the above three conditions are not met, then I would lose the bet and I would concede that it would be a clear indication of behind the scenes string pulling to impose quotas by the ANC. However, if all three conditions were met, then I'd be able to argue that the media are being a bit mischevious, that there were no quotas in place from 2015-19 and that the Sports Minister and SARU were accurate in their statements that no quotas have been imposed.


The conditions of the bet would be:

i) Its a one-on-one bet (so I'm not paying out to 50 people if the ANC harden their stance!).
ii) The winner gets to pick the loser's avatar and signature for a year (one pick only for the whole year, and obviously as long as it isn't a profanity or against forum rules).
iii) A modest donation (say £10) is to be made by the loser to the charity of the winner's choice (taking into account exchange rates incase either the Rand or Sterling plummet further (both of which sadly are distinct possibilities) so that the loser isn't paying half a week's wages).

If you are convinced that the ANC are imposing quotas, then this is easy money people! Any takers?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Thanks, and I do know about the 50% pledge and I can see why it gets alarm bells ringing (personally I'd settle for say 25% as that would have been plenty in my mind to help contribute to a broader uptake of the sport in the country). But three years out from the next RWC surely, if there is any hope of implementing a quota, they'd have to be blooding a lot of new non-white talent to have any realistic chance of getting near that 50% level? There is no sign of it really happening and this year would have been the perfect year as there is a new coach and there are so many old hands have retired after the RWC (as I am led to believe). I can see no way that 5, 6 or 7 non-whites in the 23 is remotely on track for 50% by RWC 2019. It might not even be on track for 7 out of 23 for 2019!

I know I'm probably coming across as pedantic, but the sports minister announced the 50% target for RWC 2019 (rather than a quota). As I say, targets aren't binding and I'm fairly confident that unless the ANC changes its position, there is no prospect of them making that target (which is probably what their internal report said and why rubgy, cricket, netball unions are now banned from applying for their next World Cups).

I disagree. I think there has been a lot more non-white players in the Super Rugby teams than in the past.

Bulls:
Props: Trevor Nyakane, Lizo Gqoboka, Nqoba Mxoli, Dayan van der Westhuizen
Hooker: Bandise Maku
Lock: Marvin Orie
Loose Forwards: Freddy Ngoza, Clyde Davids
Scrumhalf: Rudy Paige
Wings: Jamba Ulengo, Jade Stigling, Kafense Mahlo, Travis Ismaiel, Luther Obi, Bjorn Basson
Fullback: Duncan Matthews, Warrick Gelant

Cheetahs:

Rayno Benjamin, Clayton Blommetjies, Maphutha Dolo, Joseph Dweba, Hilton Lobberts, Zee Mkhabela, Oupa Mohoje, Uzair Cassiem, Sergeal Petersen, Raymond Rhule

Lions:

Courtnall Skosan, Sampie Mastriet, Anthony Volmink, Selom Gavor, Howard Mnisi, Elton Jantjes, Ashlon Davids, Fabian Booysen, Victor Sekekete, MB Lusaseni, Ramone Samuels, Lionell Mapoe

Sharks:

Hyron Andrews, Beast Mtawarira, Lubabalo Mtyanda, Monde Hadebe, Mzamo Majola, Khaya Majola, Tera Mtembu, Garth April, Innocent Radebe, Lukhanyo Am, Lwazi Mvovo, Odwa Ndungane, Sibusiso Nkosi, S'bura Sithole, Wandile Mjekevu, JP Pietersen, Chiliboy Ralepelle

Stormers:

Nizaam Carr, Kurt Coleman, Siya Kolisi, Dillyn Leyds, Godlen Masimla, Bongi Mbonambi, Khanyo Ngcukana, Sikhumbuzo Notshe, Scarra Ntubeni, Alistair Vermaak, Leolin Zas, Cheslin Kolbe, Seabelo Senatla

Kings:

Malcolm Jaer, Siyanda Grey, Elgar Watts, Aidon Davis, Sipato Junior Pokomela, Thembelani Bholi, Cornell Hess, Edgar Marutlulle, Onke Dubase, Mihlali Mpafi, Michael Makase, Ntando Kebe, Luzuko Vulindlu, Monde Hadebe

Now granted that some of these players didn't feature in any of their team's matches during the Super Rugby tournament. But if we compare this year to last year's tournament:

Bulls:
2015: 9 Players of Colour
2016: 17 Players of Colour

Cheetahs:
2015: 8 Players of Colour
2016: 10 Players of Colour

Lions:
2015: 6 players of Colour
2016: 12 Players of Colour

Sharks:
2015: 10 players of Colour
2016: 17 Players of Colour

Stormers:
2015: 11 Players of Colour
2016: 13 Players of Colour

Kings
2015: Did not participate in Super Rugby
2016: 14 Players of Colour

Now clearly there has been an increase within a period of 6 months, which was due to the statements made by the Sports Minister. If my math is correct, then that is 39 new players that formed part of the 2016 Super Rugby Squads. That is an entire team!!!

 

[George Ford]

I am a rugby blooded South African who from a young age have been quivering for excitement to showcase my skills on the field and also raise 3 eyebrows when I see a lighty side-step and jerk (which would probably look like a jol to some) his defenders 1-on-1 all the way to the try-line. I take note & make mention of a David-vs-Goliath moment where the shorty tumbles down the big man, because you cannot run without your legs. I make sure my howl is heard when I see a huge tackle hit the carrier backwards and ditto for Lomu-like ram on a defender. All these moments I have come to learn and love the game of rugby as witnessed in my country of South Africa.

These are the things you often see happening as a junior, but less on senior level where the sport is tailored to be more structured and professional, but by this time you have now also developed a love for your union/region/province you stem from and represented as the game is now part of your DNA and your focus is now pursuing & contributing to the game where it is recognized and throughout all these years you experience a kind of enigma where you almost literally feel the whole country coming to a standstill when the Springboks are playing.

This is exactly the reason rugby is STILL labelled as the national sport, in spite of the majority of citizens enjoying football more as a past time, like most other countries. Because this sport actually unites the country as whole like nothing else. This despite this current government's agenda to again separate and segregate it's citizens with its policies & ideals. The quota system & transformation being one of them. Why SHOULD this system be implemented if this same kind of ideologies is what put the country in isolation previously? I think the current state of affairs in the country can almost directly be attributable to what has has transpired in the Boks season so far and is a clear-cut sign that all of it has only had a negative impact on the sport: players' exodus; sponsors withdrawal; and now our Boks are officially slipping down the rankings as a result of their performance. The players themselves do not feel that wealth in support & goodwill as they are carrying more weight than any other era of previous players before them to wear the Bok jersey.

There are still a lot that can be said, but what I have briefly touched on should already be enough to motivate that a racially based system has no place in the true spirit of competitive & professional sport. Why should I raise my kid in an environment where politics is enforced on the sport which I love. I would rather migrate to country where the sport itself is nurtured and not the agendas of its government.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Now clearly there has been an increase within a period of 6 months, which was due to the statements made by the Sports Minister. If my math is correct, then that is 39 new players that formed part of the 2016 Super Rugby Squads. That is an entire team!!!

That is very interesting, thanks, although I'd point out that 14 of your 39 new players are for the Kings (who weren't playing in 2015 as you point out) so should be counted differently. But even 25 more players in a year is a big difference. It makes me wonder why the Sports Ministers' report on the progress of "transformation" in rugby was presumably negative enough to say you can't bid for international tournaments.

Are most of these 25 new players that are reaching an age where making an SR squad might be appropriate (e.g. 20-23 years?). If so, they could be there on merit. If a lot of them are older, journeymen players who have been doing the rounds in the Currie Cup but haven't previously been considered good enough for SR, then I think that could be an indication of coaches having their hands forced to field more players.

EDIT: Also, I think I am counting 6 non-white players out of the 23 for this weekends Test again? If so its below the quota/target for the second fixture running.

 

[Brigantine]

This whole political interference topic only seems to be getting louder since TRC round 6.

But here's a different idea:

The Maori All Blacks certainly seem to have a niche. It will be interesting to see how much fanfare the USA - Maori All Blacks game can generate, it seems like a good match-up for marketing.
The Americas Rugby Championship includes an 'A' side from Argentina.
The Barbarians are a regular feature in AI's

Could there be value (marketing, political, whatever) in a Maori All Blacks equivalent in South Africa? (Or is there something like this already?)

- Would it bridge the gap between Namibia/Kenya/Zimbabwe and South Africa in the Africa Cup? If it was a permanent team in that competition, would it help grow the rugby following further into Africa?
- Could it be a plausible SH rival for Samoa/Tonga/Maori All Blacks or the winner of the Americas Rugby Championship?
- Is it something that would get a lot of attention in SA and generate new stars and inspiration/appeal across a wider section of SA?

I can see pitfalls too
- It might be perceived in a completely different way in SA to NZ. I imagine it would have to definitely be seen as a springboard, not a divergent path. (less of an issue for an age-grade team?)
- Whatever criteria are used could become contentious. It's possibly a blessing with the status quo that disagreements over which players count in what category don't need to be explicitly resolved.


People who actually know stuff about South Africa:

Am I being crazy and this would never fly? (Or is there already a team and I've never heard about it)
Would you personally have any problems with this? (i.e. does this even avoid the problems with quotas in the first place?)
Do you think it would have a good/bad effect on the Springboks?
Can you imagine an opponent for them where you wouldn't want to miss the game? (would they sell any tickets / generate any TV revenue?)
Are there players who would want to sign up to this team?
Could they find enough funding/sponsorship?


P.S.
In NZ, the Maori All Blacks were formed way back in 1910. It seems having 1 distant ancestor who belonged to a tribe is sufficient to make you eligible. "All contracted players are able to nominate themselves as eligible for the Maori All Blacks and, in the event a player is considered for selection, the team’s kaumatua (cultural advisor) will trace the player’s whakapapa (genealogy) to confirm his heritage and eligibility". But the SA situation isn't really similar to NZ - Maori are a minority, and all tribes share one language, albeit with differences.

 

[TRF_heineken]

This whole political interference topic only seems to be getting louder since TRC round 6.

But here's a different idea:

The Maori All Blacks certainly seem to have a niche. It will be interesting to see how much fanfare the USA - Maori All Blacks game can generate, it seems like a good match-up for marketing.
The Americas Rugby Championship includes an 'A' side from Argentina.
The Barbarians are a regular feature in AI's

Could there be value (marketing, political, whatever) in a Maori All Blacks equivalent in South Africa? (Or is there something like this already?)

- Would it bridge the gap between Namibia/Kenya/Zimbabwe and South Africa in the Africa Cup? If it was a permanent team in that competition, would it help grow the rugby following further into Africa?
- Could it be a plausible SH rival for Samoa/Tonga/Maori All Blacks or the winner of the Americas Rugby Championship?
- Is it something that would get a lot of attention in SA and generate new stars and inspiration/appeal across a wider section of SA?

I can see pitfalls too
- It might be perceived in a completely different way in SA to NZ. I imagine it would have to definitely be seen as a springboard, not a divergent path. (less of an issue for an age-grade team?)
- Whatever criteria are used could become contentious. It's possibly a blessing with the status quo that disagreements over which players count in what category don't need to be explicitly resolved.


People who actually know stuff about South Africa:

Am I being crazy and this would never fly? (Or is there already a team and I've never heard about it)
Would you personally have any problems with this? (i.e. does this even avoid the problems with quotas in the first place?)
Do you think it would have a good/bad effect on the Springboks?
Can you imagine an opponent for them where you wouldn't want to miss the game? (would they sell any tickets / generate any TV revenue?)
Are there players who would want to sign up to this team?
Could they find enough funding/sponsorship?


P.S.
In NZ, the Maori All Blacks were formed way back in 1910. It seems having 1 distant ancestor who belonged to a tribe is sufficient to make you eligible. "All contracted players are able to nominate themselves as eligible for the Maori All Blacks and, in the event a player is considered for selection, the team's kaumatua (cultural advisor) will trace the player's whakapapa (genealogy) to confirm his heritage and eligibility". But the SA situation isn't really similar to NZ - Maori are a minority, and all tribes share one language, albeit with differences.

I think that Idea will never realise in SA.

first we have to differentiate between coloured players and ethnic black players, as there is a massive difference. And then, even in between the ethnic black players you have different tribes/cultures such as Zulu, Xhosa, Venda, Tswana, Ndebele, Sesotho, Seswati and so on, which is different from the Maori. These cultures have their own language, and plenty of words that is vastly different from the other cultures. So if we ever have such a team, what language will they speak? English? Afrikaans? I doubt that the players would like that.

The other problem is that the ethnic black players in the proffessional setup in SA only occupy certain positions, so we won't be able to field a 23-man team using only ethnic black players. We would have one lock, one fly half and a backline full of wingers apart from Mapoe and Mnisi.

But the other problem is that I don't think the top players would want to play for this team. It would put a target on their back in that they see themselves as a quota player, and therefore might not always be selected on merit for the Boks.

 

[Brigantine]

the ethnic black players in the proffessional setup in SA only occupy certain positions, so we won't be able to field a 23-man team using only ethnic black players. We would have one lock, one fly half and a backline full of wingers apart from Mapoe and Mnisi.

Hmm... Is that just inherent, or is that something that kind of got nudged into being that way by the politics? An accidental feedback loop divvying up positions for aspiring pro players to choose.
IF a team started out at say U16 level (not sure who they'd vs), would you still only find half the positions?

Is there a particular culture that's more significant or over-represented in rugby relative to the others? I.e. could you form a team around one distinct community. You would need to tap into a sense of group pride somehow to get a team like this to work. And yeah, a catch-all group of 'quota players' would be a bad start.

Perhaps it quite a meta-level difference in the requirements in each country. In NZ, there was something that needed to be built up. In SA, there's just a vague negative space that needs to be broken down.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Hmm... Is that just inherent, or is that something that kind of got nudged into being that way by the politics? An accidental feedback loop divvying up positions for aspiring pro players to choose.
IF a team started out at say U16 level (not sure who they'd vs), would you still only find half the positions?

Is there a particular culture that's more significant or over-represented in rugby relative to the others? I.e. could you form a team around one distinct community. You would need to tap into a sense of group pride somehow to get a team like this to work. And yeah, a catch-all group of 'quota players' would be a bad start.

Perhaps it quite a meta-level difference in the requirements in each country. In NZ, there was something that needed to be built up. In SA, there's just a vague negative space that needs to be broken down.

Well. From what I've seen personally, is that the ethnic black kids who take up rugby, are usually the ones who are poor at soccer, as in they are the bigger, chunkier kids, or the ones who don't have the skills with their feet. So usually the guys taking up rugby are the ones we see playing prop, hooker and wing. The wings are very fast, but usually they don't have the skills to be good football players. The tall ones are going into basketball, which is one of the fastest growing sports in South Africa.

If we look at the last craven week, and the teams who did well, with ethnic black players in their team, then it's clear that this trend is ongoing. Those teams had good wingers and props or hookers who were ethnic black.

Politics does play a role here in some way, but that's because of the majority of ethnic black cultures preferring soccer above rugby or cricket. Our Soccer network just have more backing than any other sport and the money is significantly more in Soccer than in rugby. Soccer in the rural areas are also the first choice for every youngster taking up sports, and there are way more clubs and teams to play for than rugby.

 

[Sailor Pete]

Guys, you can bemoan into our quota dilemma as much as you like, but its not the reason we're in the trouble we're in.

I see the cause of our poor performance as such:
1. No continuity at coaching level.
2. We hang onto out of form and aging players for way too long.
3. We play our fit players to destruction.
4. We have no succession plan.
5. We have no game plan.
6. Our ball skills are shocking.
7. We kick when we should run.
8. We run when we should kick.
9. We allow the opposition too much room.
10. Our scrumhalves talk too much
11. We recycle the ball slower that a slow motion reply of a chess move
12. With the exception of the Lions our domestic sides are rubbish
13. I can't think of one current Springbok who'd make it into the current All Black side

I'll stop there before I break anything..

If I had to nail it though, I'd have to lay the blame squarely at the feet of our national & provincial coaching staff and administrators. The government are only pouring salt into an already gaping wound...

 

[eidde]

@Sailor Pete - aren't all of those issues as a result of political interference? The current coaching setup at the Springboks is vastly underqualified, but they can't replace any of them because they've all been put there by the government. Every single one of those problems you've mentioned could be improved upon with the introduction of a decent coach with access to a proper support staff.

So the quota system to me is just a part of a wider system of political interference that is killing the Boks, and the game as a whole in SA.

 

[Sailor Pete]

@Sailor Pete - aren't all of those issues as a result of political interference?

To a certain degree, yes.

 

[TRF_heineken]

To a certain degree, yes.

Not to a certain degree... Most definitely.

And you aren't the first person to mention those issues either, Nick Mallet has been saying that for years. But that is also due to BEE/Political Interference at the administrators side. And we have had this issue since before Jake White was coach. And it has been one of the big fights the bigger unions has had with SARU and Oregon Hoskins.