The "South African Quota" catch-all thread

[TRF_heineken]

@TRF_heineken thanks for giving me a straight answer.

Another question if you don't mind:

Out of complete ignorance, why would de Allende qualify as a quota player? I am not really familiar with his background but he doesn't look black. Again, out of ignorance, not trying to stir things up or anything like that.

And one comment. I'll use Jantjies as an example but i could use others: sure, he underperformed but based on
a) His performance in SR (he wasn't the only one who underperformed in the final so lets not pin that on him)
b) Patrick Lambie being injured
c) Pollard being injured
d) Steyn not being the shadow of what he used to be

I find it quite reasonable for him to have been selected for the starting XV in the games so far. Sure, it didn't work, but it's quite easy to make that judgement call with tomorrow's newspaper.
If you tell me they keep on using him after such performances, then yes, you are right.

This appears to be a sensitive subject for some so let me be clear: i am not calling anyone a racist and i personally believe that quotas are not the answer, but i am not convinced that quotas are neither sole nor the main reason for RSA's performance.

De Allende was considered a coloured player because of his mother's mixed race descendancy. His family has stated that he is white, but that hasn't deter the people of bracketing him as a coloured player.

As for Jantjies.
a) He was indeed the standout fly half in Super Rugby, and I was one of the many who said that he should get a chance for the Springboks. But I also mentioned that he will play under Allister Coetzee, and might not fire on all cylinders as Jantjies played under him when Jantjies was at the Stormers, and he didn't play very well then.
b & c) Our 2 top candidates are injured yes, and that primarily opened the door for Elton.
d) I disagree, The moments when Steyn came on, it seemed like our backline got a fire up their backside and looked more potent, especially in the last 10 minutes in Salta. His kicking has been less convincing though. But we haven't really seen enough to judge in what type of form he really is.

But let me add here. Goosen was also in the group from the beginning of the RC, and has been used only at fullback, I don't know why AC at least give him one match at Fly Half and see if he does better than Elton. We have enough cover at fullback, our problem is at fly half.

Maybe we'll see some changes now that Lambie and Willie Le Roux has been called up for the last 2 tests.

As for your very last sentence. I won't deny that our current problem is solely based on the quota system. But it plays an intricate role in what is going on. Perhaps it's less obvious abroad, but here in SA, it's everywhere, social media, newspapers, tv... It's all that everybody is talking about.

It certainly does produce negativity, and that is all that there is in the SA rugby public now. And this creates very poor morale in the bok camp. We have seen many players in the past few weeks, posting on twitter, and sometimes their anger/frustration is coming through their posts. If we keep on losing, then this will just escalate.

SA is on a daily basis fighting a race war, Our Universities are being targeted, Our Parliament is in disarray, corruption is everywhere, and our ruling party are using the race card to add fuel to a fire, which is not necessary. Our August 3rd Municipal Election showed that the ANC is now vulnerable, where they lost control of Johannesburg, Pretoria and Port Elizabeth, and already we see how the DA is using a united front in battling the ANC.

This race war has now been intensified by the quota system, yet the white, coloured and indian communities aren't firing any shots. Even some black communities wants this to end, but as long as Prez Zuma and his chronies are in power, this will not stop.

 

[TheOvalBall]

so how good do you think the springboks would be without government interference?
cause right now the Springboks are in the middle of their winningest decade against the original rugby championship and 5 nations teams since the 1960s and they just took third in the world cup

que ?

 

[squirrel]

Another thing to take into account is to see how the quota system is seriously affecting the Proteas, although cricket is a different sport and has even less top quality blacks to choose from its not hard to see the parallels and where both teams are heading.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Another thing to take into account is to see how the quota system is seriously affecting the Proteas, although cricket is a different sport and has even less top quality blacks to choose from its not hard to see the parallels and where both teams are heading.

Just wait and see next week. The Proteas have been instructed to play 6 players of colour in the ODI's.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Our August 3rd Municipal Election showed that the ANC is now vulnerable, where they lost control of Johannesburg, Pretoria and Port Elizabeth, and already we see how the DA is using a united front in battling the ANC.

On that. Yes, I think the ANC losing ground in the municipal elections is mostly due to people's frustration with their apparent lack of progress but at the same time the DA have adopted more 'popular' stances and are supporting race quotas etc and the extreme ANC supporters who see the ANC as 'too soft' have moved on to the EFF. So I for one am not overly confident the ANC losing ground is necessarily all that great if its means the EFF is gaining ground and the DA is moving towards becoming a kind of 'ANC lite' and a fashionable alternative in the metro regions without their policies being that much different than the ANC's.

- - - Updated - - -

Just wait and see next week. The Proteas have been instructed to play 6 players of colour in the ODI's.

I won't because I have stopped watching SA cricket. I only have so much time and I'd rather watch French Top 14 rugby. If things don't improve on the rugby front I might end up watching Premiership rugby or start taking up NFL with which I've had a mild fascination for years without fully getting into it.

 

[Every Time Ref]

never believe anything in politics unless its been officially denied.

ftfy

- - - Updated - - -

I always wonder, is there any popular support at all in South Africa for quotas? I have never spoken to a single Saffa who supports them, or even tolerates them - obviously I know a limited number of South Africans, and not necessarily a representative one. That aside, it is really striking how universally hated the idea is - even by very left wing people, people who might well support the concept of quotas in other areas (women in parliament for example), people of the generation who marched against apartheid etc. etc. - my Dad did all that, is basically a stereotype of an English leftie liberal, and hates the quotas as much as anyone.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

que ?

How have quotas held the springboks back?
I am against them on the grounds that they are "trickle down" policy but I think that their affect on the success of the springboks is minimal

 

[Ospervat]

How have quotas held the springboks back?
I am against them on the grounds that they are "trickle down" policy but I think that their affect on the success of the springboks is minimal

I agree - the effect of quotas on the springbok success is minimal if fact it's nothing at all.

The effect of quota's on the springbok failure is huge however.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I agree - the effect of quotas on the springbok success is minimal if fact it's nothing at all.

The effect of quota's on the springbok failure is huge however.

How? The springboks are playing as well now as they did in the 60s.

 

[Ospervat]

Different era, different game, in fact different on so many levels that nobody in their right mind who knows anything about rugby union would dare to draw a comparison - sorry but
Im suspicious that you're trolling.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Different era, different game, in fact different on so many levels that nobody in their right mind who knows anything about rugby union would dare to draw a comparison - sorry but
Im suspicious that you're trolling.

so what standard do you hold the current bokke performance to if not performances of the past

btw, i wasn't comparing current bokkes to just the 60s, comparing their win percentage of now to every decade from the 60s to now

 

[Peat]

How? The springboks are playing as well now as they did in the 60s.

Now =/= this decade

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Now =/= this decade

last year they took third place in the rwc, probably would have been second if they were on other side of bracket

this year they have been decimated by injuries

 

[Peat]

last year they took third place in the rwc, probably would have been second if they were on other side of bracket

this year they have been decimated by injuries

World Cup finish masks the fact they've been underachieving for a couple of years by now.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

World Cup finish masks the fact they've been underachieving for a couple of years by now.

underachieving compared to what though? all i want to know is what standard this team is being held to

 

[Ospervat]

so what standard do you hold the current bokke performance to if not performances of the past

btw, i wasn't comparing current bokkes to just the 60s, comparing their win percentage of now to every decade from the 60s to now

The standard I hold their performance to is demonstrated skills, intellectual play, initiative to create opportunities, discipline, and yes ultimately their % win / loss record however this has to be tempered and measured in terms of the competitive level of the opposition and the margins by which they win or lose against said competition.

Further to this you cannot compare their record to any period from the late 60's to the early 90's just before the pro era as SA was isolated from international sport including rugby due to apartheid policies.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

The standard I hold their performance to is demonstrated skills, intellectual play, initiative to create opportunities, discipline, and yes ultimately their % win / loss record however this has to be tempered and measured in terms of the competitive level of the opposition and the margins by which they win or lose against said competition.

that is what you measure, but who are you comparing this current team to?

 

[Ospervat]

It is a what and not a who. Simple as that.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Not a who- but a what - and I think that is the point you're not grasping.

Obviously.
What is that though?

 

[Ospervat]

Demonstrated skills, intellectual play, initiative to create opportunities, discipline, unforced errors, leadership, strategy ........

It's qualitative not quantitative.

quotas isn't a meritocracy where those most qualified are selected - and that is the nub of it.