The "South African Quota" catch-all thread

[User1245]

This topic resurfaced in various threads in June and is likely to reappear again during the Rugby Championship. Rather than reply in those threads to each instance I thought I'd simply update my post from last year and personally just focus on the rugby in these other threads. As ever, no offence is intended and I can sympathise why this is a sensitive topic.

I don't think the Lions met this mythical "quota" once this season. Instead of 7 out of 23 I counted 4 non-whites for them in the final. So I'd argue the same applies in 2017 as last year in my first post, that:

- quotas are a myth peddled by a media looking for a readership. They are a deliberate misinterpretation of the policy because it is standard media practice to foster grievance in order to enhance readership numbers.
- players are selected on merit and there are easily 7 non-white South African players of sufficient quality to put on the Boks jersey.
- the SARU are being strongly encouraged to foster growth of the game outside the traditional strongholds and by doing so, naturally come closer to the "targets" outlined.
- that if the SARU was seen to be failing to become more inclusive then the government would not support bids to host the RWC by withholding tax payer funds.
- that there are no sanctions for a team if they have less than 7 non-white players in their squad.
- that South African rugby will benefit in the medium to long term by extending its reach to other communities in terms of playerbase and fanbase.
- that the SARU was given around 20 years to improve this situation themselves post-apartheid but, for whatever reasons, utterly failed to make progress in this area.
- that it is reasonable for a government in such a situation after two decades to then take a more hands on approach and issue targets to a union.
- that just because a government is completely rotten, it doesn't mean that everything done by that government is wrong.

To refresh quota/target watchers of any persuasion my understanding is that despite skin pigmentation de Allende is classified as white and Bosch is classified as non-white.

Will each 23 for South Africa contain 7 or more non-white players in the Rugby Championship? If you can't say for certain, yes, then you cannot believe quotas are being implemented.

Let me demistify the quota targets for you:
SARU Strategic Transformation Plan

 

[TRF_heineken]

Let me demistify the quota targets for you:
SARU Strategic Transformation Plan

And just to add to that, here's what SARU president, Mark Alexander said last week:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Rugb...uld-field-hemisphere-sides-in-future-20170913

Alexander spoke on a range of topics, but also talked about the prickly subject of transformation, and whether SA Rugby and its provinces will meet the 2019 target of 50 percent representation.

"I think we will get there. If one looks at our junior teams, our schools team had 53 percent players of colour. If your lower teams don't have it now, then we will not make it by 2019. Our lower league teams are meeting those numbers, our Springbok team is meeting those numbers," Alexander added.

"In the latest squad we have 15 out of 31 – hell that is good and we are almost there already. We want teams picked on merit – our Springbok team is picked on merit and we will continue monitoring this process until 2019."

 

[Ospervat]

And just to add to that, here's what SARU president, Mark Alexander said last week:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Rugb...uld-field-hemisphere-sides-in-future-20170913

What a lot of .%#*
Nothing but a ploy to deflect attention away from the real issue.

1 squad based on merit managed by 1 body appointed on merit. Anything else is a sham.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Looks like virtue-signalling at its finest.

What about 'if you are good enough you will be picked?'

 

[AM_Bokke]

What I don't understand about this issue is what gives the SA government leverage over SARU rugby policy? Funding? Does the SA government fund SARU, and explicitly the men's national team? More so than TV, tickets and corporate sponsorship? Stakeholders that demand immediate sporting success.

SARU, like any enterprise for profit or nonprofit, can surely mind it's own business right?

I would think that there are long term economic and sporting reasons why SARU would want rugby to be more popular with black South Africans. Are people sure that the SA government is directly involved with selection policy?

 

[TRF_heineken]

What I don't understand about this issue is what gives the SA government leverage over SARU rugby policy? Funding? Does the SA government fund SARU, and explicitly the men's national team? More so than TV, tickets and corporate sponsorship? Stakeholders that demand immediate sporting success.

SARU, like any enterprise for profit or nonprofit, can surely mind it's own business right?

I would think that there are long term economic and sporting reasons why SARU would want rugby to be more popular with black South Africans. Are people sure that the SA government is directly involved with selection policy?

Well, all sporting bodies in SA has to comply with the rules and laws the SRSA (Department for Sports and Recreation) puts out. No sporting body may host an international event without complying to the rules of the SRSA, and they even have to complete certain forms to apply to host such events.

The SRSA also gives funding to all sports codes where people can earn national colours. They also, and here is the crux, assist with the development of sport, especially in the rural areas. Most of SARU's projects isn't done by their own funding, and along with sponsors and the government makes it a more successful project/event.

SARU or any other national sporting body, can't function without the government. That's unfortunately how it works in SA. Why else do you think the government is allowed to enforce these transformation projects?

 

[The Jones Boy]

This came from a saffer mate of mine who has family in the RSA, and some family that have relocated to Auckland.

He said, "The quota system extends into the schools ( under 13 level) a result of which is that many parents are steering promising talent away from the sport into academics or the sciences with a view to providing their kids with very portable skills.For some, with the money or with access to foreign passports, there is the option of moving to other countries taking the talent out if the country. Others have aggressively pursued sports scholarships abroad. There is also the more general emigration issue with huge numbers leaving the country in the last 20 years."

I didn't know that, thats pretty brutal.

 

[TRF_heineken]

This came from a saffer mate of mine who has family in the RSA, and some family that have relocated to Auckland.

He said, "The quota system extends into the schools ( under 13 level) a result of which is that many parents are steering promising talent away from the sport into academics or the sciences with a view to providing their kids with very portable skills.For some, with the money or with access to foreign passports, there is the option of moving to other countries taking the talent out if the country. Others have aggressively pursued sports scholarships abroad. There is also the more general emigration issue with huge numbers leaving the country in the last 20 years."

I didn't know that, thats pretty brutal.

Yep, but that's just a part of the situation, but understandable as the friend of your's have family that did exactly this with their "Relocation".

The issue at the schools are something that is very daunting. And I bare witness to it just a couple of weeks ago at a field hockey tournament. One of my colleagues' girls qualified for the Limpopo provincial under 16 team to compete at a national tournament. Each team had to have 6 black players on their team of which 3 must be permanently on the field. Limpopo just barely got 6 black girls in their squad of 15 for the tournament (this is due to not many schools in the province having field hockey as a school sport), of which one of the girls didn't even attend the qualification tournament.

Then when they got to the QF, they could only use 4 of the black girls, as the other 2 were injured, and then 2 of the black girls on the field ran into one another, and both had to go off for concussion. It left the Limpopo team with only 2 black girls on the field, and right there, the referee stopped the game, and Limpopo was forced to forfeit the match (which they were leading 3-0).

As things stand, I see a lot of the more wealthy parents in my town, sending their boys to Grey (Bloemfontein), Affies or Waterkloof (Pretoria) or to Monument (Krugersdorp) to play rugby, or, the boys just stopped playing rugby completely and pursue other interests.

 

[mdaclarke]

What I don't understand is that as enforceable race quotas are so obviously illegal under IOC and World Rugby (and I imagine World Hockey) rules why don't the IOC or World Rugby (or World Hockey) put a stop to it. They could stop it tomorrow if they wanted.

International Rugby needs all the competitive international teams it can get. If the Boks decline then people will lose interest in the Rugby Championship and Super Rugby, this will damage the Pumas and Wallabys and the All Blacks and will damage world rugby.

 

[FNS]

@TRF that story is just sad.

Overall it just seems like payback not real interest in fomenting equality. Hard place for Saru and overall sports in SA.

 

[Ospervat]

Time to call a spade a spade.

Firstly I don't blame the players for Saturdays fiasco and in fact don't really blame AC - he is simply a pawn in a much bigger agenda.

In order to understand the gradual erosion of SA rugby quality you need to understand the broader socio- political arena in South Africa.

The government in South Africa is fundamentally a racist regime. Their policies are intended to redress the wrongs of historical apartheid through legislation and absolute anti-white governance. I.E a new apartheid. This narrow minded view promotes the philosophy that two wrongs do make a right. This is the African culture.

They are fanatically anti-european. They do not care for colonial culture and western philosophies. Their radical zeal to erase all vestiges of western influence in South African society is all consuming.

They don't care about the cost to its people or give due regard to the consequences of their actions. If the IRB told them that quotas or targets was an unacceptable practice in terms of the constitution the SA Government would pay the messenger due lip service but behind closed doors they quite simply don't give a damn unless there is some financial reward in it for them personally. Their only interest is to serve themselves. This is the African way.

They are a select elite who ultimately don't care about their citizens welfare or development. SA is a faltering state which under the current regime is more inclined towards failure given the circumstances of the socio-economic & political environment.

There are many observable similarities to historical failed states by post revolutionary governments lurching from crisis to crisis, internal dissent, political violence, property disputes, loss of law and order, high levels of corruption, high levels of unemployment, deteriorating infrastructure, demonstrations as a result of public discontent, mass influx of illegal immigrants etc etc etc ..

The current state of South African Rugby is just one small glimpse into a much greater social and political evil that is hell bent on its own agenda at any cost. Period.

As much as we don't want it, South Africa will in the fullness of time become just another 3rd world African country.

The international community needs to accept this and move on.

 

[FNS]

That or civil war.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Firstly I don't blame the players for Saturdays fiasco and in fact don't really blame AC - he is simply a pawn in a much bigger agenda.

Is he though?? He's the first Springbok coach that hasn't been fired for underperformance, yet Coaches like Heyneke Meyer, Jake White, Pieter De Villiers, and Rudolf Strauli all had to make changes to their teams with the "quota" system. AC is the first Springbok coach after Carel Du Plessis, to have a winning percentage of under 50%! And Carel only coached 8 matches before he was fired. Yet AC has now been in charge of 19/20 matches.

The government in South Africa is fundamentally a racist regime. Their policies are intended to redress the wrongs of historical apartheid through legislation and absolute anti-white governance. I.E a new apartheid. This narrow minded view promotes the philosophy that two wrongs do make a right. This is the African culture.

I like to call it reverse-racism. But according to them, they can't be racist, because they are black...

They are fanatically anti-european. They do not care for colonial culture and western philosophies. Their radical zeal to erase all vestiges of western influence in South African society is all consuming.

That is basically how most african countries are that have a dictator in power...

They don't care about the cost to its people or give due regard to the consequences of their actions. If the IRB told them that quotas or targets was an unacceptable practice in terms of the constitution the SA Government would pay the messenger due lip service but behind closed doors they quite simply don't give a damn unless there is some financial reward in it for them personally. Their only interest is to serve themselves. This is the African way.

Well, I don't think that is the issue anymore, at least, you can see that there are changes happening/coming. I think the applications lodged by Afriforum to the UN and IOC will be getting a closer look than what we might think, and I hope that there will be actions taken. When submissions were made, and the SA government representative submitted their counter arguments, the chairperson had very harsh words to say to her. I just wish that we can get a final answer/verdict on this matter, as it feels like it's dragging on.

They are a select elite who ultimately don't care about their citizens welfare or development. SA is a faltering state which under the current regime is more inclined towards failure given the circumstances of the socio-economic & political environment.

True. The Zuma regime has been proven to be a corrupt regime, and slowly but surely the dominoes are falling. With the news of the Guptas, Bell Pottinger, KPMG and State Owned Enterprises all showing corrupt elements, they are falling one by one.

There are many observable similarities to historical failed states by post revolutionary governments lurching from crisis to crisis, internal dissent, political violence, property disputes, loss of law and order, high levels of corruption, high levels of unemployment, deteriorating infrastructure, demonstrations as a result of public discontent, mass influx of illegal immigrants etc etc etc ..

We've always had that though... We are used to it by now...

The current state of South African Rugby is just one small glimpse into a much greater social and political evil that is hell bent on its own agenda at any cost. Period.

Yes and no. I think it started with the Rugby Administrators and their lack of knowledge when it comes to rugby, they ran it like a business, but didn't always have the gusto to make rugby-orientated decisions, nor the knowledge to make the right decisions. We have such a big amount of knowledgable people who can assist. Yet most of them are just pundits and commentators on tv.

As much as we don't want it, South Africa will in the fullness of time become just another 3rd world African country.

The international community needs to accept this and move on.

Uhm, we are a dualistic country. We are both 1st world and 3rd world, and I can't see that changing soon.

The international community shouldn't just accept this and move on, no, we need their help, the more help we can get, the more pressure we can put on government to change their ways...

 

[mdaclarke]

Time to call a spade a spade.

Firstly I don't blame the players for Saturdays fiasco and in fact don't really blame AC - he is simply a pawn in a much bigger agenda.

In order to understand the gradual erosion of SA rugby quality you need to understand the broader socio- political arena in South Africa.

The government in South Africa is fundamentally a racist regime. Their policies are intended to redress the wrongs of historical apartheid through legislation and absolute anti-white governance. I.E a new apartheid. This narrow minded view promotes the philosophy that two wrongs do make a right. This is the African culture.

They are fanatically anti-european. They do not care for colonial culture and western philosophies. Their radical zeal to erase all vestiges of western influence in South African society is all consuming.

They don't care about the cost to its people or give due regard to the consequences of their actions. If the IRB told them that quotas or targets was an unacceptable practice in terms of the constitution the SA Government would pay the messenger due lip service but behind closed doors they quite simply don't give a damn unless there is some financial reward in it for them personally. Their only interest is to serve themselves. This is the African way.

They are a select elite who ultimately don't care about their citizens welfare or development. SA is a faltering state which under the current regime is more inclined towards failure given the circumstances of the socio-economic & political environment.

There are many observable similarities to historical failed states by post revolutionary governments lurching from crisis to crisis, internal dissent, political violence, property disputes, loss of law and order, high levels of corruption, high levels of unemployment, deteriorating infrastructure, demonstrations as a result of public discontent, mass influx of illegal immigrants etc etc etc ..

The current state of South African Rugby is just one small glimpse into a much greater social and political evil that is hell bent on its own agenda at any cost. Period.

As much as we don't want it, South Africa will in the fullness of time become just another 3rd world African country.

The international community needs to accept this and move on.

If this is true them the IOC and the IRB should just ban them. This would stop the flow of money from the boks and would also mean that Caster Semenya couldn't compete in the Olympics. That would get their attention.

 

[Ospervat]

They say timing is everything.
In a country with unemployment running at 27% Zuma says in his latest public statement that:-
"people don't need jobs, they need to put food on the table"

Now tell me in all honesty - how do you reason with that type of logic? You just can't argue with a box of rocks.

I rest my case.

 

[mdaclarke]

They say timing is everything.
In a country with unemployment running at 27% Zuma says in his latest public statement that:-
"people don't need jobs, they need to put food on the table"

Now tell me in all honesty - how do you reason with that type of logic? You just can't argue with a box of rocks.

I rest my case.

Zuma sounds more like Mugabe day by day

 

[TRF_heineken]

They say timing is everything.
In a country with unemployment running at 27% Zuma says in his latest public statement that:-
"people don't need jobs, they need to put food on the table"

Now tell me in all honesty - how do you reason with that type of logic? You just can't argue with a box of rocks.

I rest my case.

And the other problem is that they want food on the table, but they keep on murdering the farmers and their families. Because they want land... But when they get land, they turn it into a barren wasteland...

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

We've always had that though... We are used to it by now...

This, in spades. I cannot stress how sad this is.
Unless you end up living abroad for some reason, you don't realize how bad you have/had it.

And it's not just "big things" like a specific crisis, unemployment, etc. It's the concatenation of a million small things. Worrying about getting robbed/stabbed every single ******* day, your kids education, watching over your shoulder every corner when you are driving home, using the cell phone with the inside hand (the one further away from the street) to prevent a motorcycle going past you and stealing it.
And the problem ain't just getting your mobile stolen (to use the last example), the problem is also the constant sense of alertness that comes with it. That is incredibly stressful and tiring, but as H said, you get used to it. It becomes natural.

 

[User1245]

As sad as the general state of South Africa is the elephant in the room is that the thiefing, corruption and backward politics can changed with people's votes. As backward as SA is sometimes its elections are mostly free and fair.
The international community can't and shouldn't do anything about that.
The DA is growing and certainly not because of the whites. The white population in SA is the only ethnic group that is getting smaller and I've found whites to be some of the most apathetic voters in the country. Many seem to have better things to do with the "I won't make a difference" attitude. Obviously a generalisation but I've found that to be true in my experiences. My contribution in this debate will be voting in the next elections from Australia.

However, when it comes to rugby I firmly believe that the racist ANCs philosophies should not dictate the teams composition in any way. It is simply not the point of sport and is in direct violation to the rugby world body's laws and I will continue to raise this until it changes because this is in the power of the international community to change. Further to this I think it's not a good reflection that the rugby community continues to let it slide. We like to harp on about rugby's traditions and ethos but let a power house in the game to be continually crippled. Doesn't make sense.

 

[TRF_heineken]

This, in spades. I cannot stress how sad this is.
Unless you end up living abroad for some reason, you don't realize how bad you have/had it.

And it's not just "big things" like a specific crisis, unemployment, etc. It's the concatenation of a million small things. Worrying about getting robbed/stabbed every single ******* day, your kids education, watching over your shoulder every corner when you are driving home, using the cell phone with the inside hand (the one further away from the street) to prevent a motorcycle going past you and stealing it.
And the problem ain't just getting your mobile stolen (to use the last example), the problem is also the constant sense of alertness that comes with it. That is incredibly stressful and tiring, but as H said, you get used to it. It becomes natural.

Look, every country on earth has their issues. South Africa is luckily one of those countries that doesn't have many natural disasters like Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Earthquakes, Mudslides, Tsunami's or Volcanoes. We do get floods now and then, but the damage are minimal.

And while other countries suffer regularly with these disasters, and try to build the country back up again after these damages were caused. So too does South Africa, but our disasters are socio-political. Our biggest threat are our own people.