The Sharks Thread

[nickdnz]

To Emphasize my Blindside Flank point and Dominated forwards game.

SA- Alberts-119kg Deysel-113kg Danie Rossouw- 120kg Francois Louw- 113kg...then lighter Burger 112kg and Juan Smith 107kg.
NZ- Kaino-109kg, Read?-105kg...could be more, but that is what stats say. Who else? Need Luaki back in team.
Aus- Elsom, similar to Juan Smith weight...then who? Palu plays 8.

To continue your point:

Kaino: 106kgs
McCaw: 107kgs
Read: 107kgs

2010 Tri Nations loose trio (that doiminated).

Lauaki was a constant screw up. A truck load of natural ability but no skills and decision making. Weight consistutes for very little in the loose. Kieren Read madeore metres as a ball runner, than any other loose forward, so why the hell should he be replaced. It's idiotic. I'd take skill over size any day.

 

[JJR]

To continue your point:

Kaino: 106kgs
McCaw: 107kgs
Read: 107kgs

2010 Tri Nations loose trio (that doiminated).

Lauaki was a constant screw up. A truck load of natural ability but no skills and decision making. Weight consistutes for very little in the loose. Kieren Read madeore metres as a ball runner, than any other loose forward, so why the hell should he be replaced. It's idiotic. I'd take skill over size any day.

Never said a forward dominated (Physically dominated) game would win you the game...i just said you can't only use the forwards to win the game. The last tri-nations the Boks won is an example...outside backs hardly saw the ball all they did was chase the ball around...forwards did all the work. Don't like this style of play, but mixing this approach and sending the ball wide with forward momentum is the ideal approach. What i was trying to say all along is that NZ can't really dominate another team physically (Aus, SA) with their forwards; not a bad thing, because now guys like Nonu and Big Joe get more ball.
Never said Read had to be replaced...their is no one to replace him with...no depth. Read is perfect 4 8 anyway...i am talking Blindsides...NZ don't have many fullout Blindsides.

 

[Ostrayian]

Reids proper positiion is as blindside and i rate him better the kano there. The lack of depth at 8 sees reid play there.
You could probably say NZ is lacking a fullout no 8 rather then a blindy.

 

[JJR]

Reids proper positiion is as blindside and i rate him better the kano there. The lack of depth at 8 sees reid play there.
You could probably say NZ is lacking a fullout no 8 rather then a blindy.

Agree Kanko is not good at 7 and has never been considered as a 7...only P.Divvy was being stupid playing him there. I actually prefer Reid at 8...his linking up with the backline is very good and he obviously carries well...his skills are wasted at Blindside flank in my opinion.

What about Messam!!! Forgot about him...he is not bad as a blindside at all, But not quite good enough to make it ahead of Kaino or Read, but not bad off the bench. If was a All Black fan i would be bummed that Collins decided to retire from internationals...not the biggest, but he still scared the opposition with his physicality...my most favourite All Black or former All Black.

 

[JJR]

News Change-

It Seems Deysel will join up with the Tour squad as soon as he is given the all clear by the medical staff. Sounds like he might join the squad for Rebels game, if not they hoping for the Crusaders game.

 

[woodward]

SA- Alberts-119kg Deysel-113kg Danie Rossouw- 120kg Francois Louw- 113kg...then lighter Burger 112kg and Juan Smith 107kg.
NZ- Kaino-109kg, Read?-105kg...could be more, but that is what stats say. Who else? Need Luaki back in team.
Aus- Elsom, similar to Juan Smith weight...then who? Palu plays 8.

Way to expose your ignorance. NZ can and does dominate teams physically, like against the Boks last year at Eden Park. You rarely see the All Blacks adopt that kind of gameplan exclusively, they are too good for that and that kind of mediocrity is not accepted.

 

[JJR]

Way to expose your ignorance. NZ can and does dominate teams physically, like against the Boks last year at Eden Park. You rarely see the All Blacks adopt that kind of gameplan exclusively, they are too good for that and that kind of mediocrity is not accepted.

You don't quite get what i am saying...also check who played at 7 in that game...Kanko!!was never going to work. Debate over u Win, i am over fighting about something that is as clear as Daylight. mediocrity?-what does that mean...i am Afrikaans, don't know these big words.

 

[ranger]

SA- Alberts-119kg Deysel-113kg Danie Rossouw- 120kg Francois Louw- 113kg...then lighter Burger 112kg and Juan Smith 107kg.
NZ- Kaino-109kg, Read?-105kg...could be more, but that is what stats say. Who else? Need Luaki back in team.
Aus- Elsom, similar to Juan Smith weight...then who? Palu plays 8.

....What?

 

[JJR]

....What?

Debate over...

 

[ranger]

Agree Kanko is not good at 7 and has never been considered as a 7...only P.Divvy was being stupid playing him there. I actually prefer Reid at 8...his linking up with the backline is very good and he obviously carries well...his skills are wasted at Blindside flank in my opinion.

What about Messam!!! Forgot about him...he is not bad as a blindside at all, But not quite good enough to make it ahead of Kaino or Read, but not bad off the bench. If was a All Black fan i would be bummed that Collins decided to retire from internationals...not the biggest, but he still scared the opposition with his physicality...my most favourite All Black or former All Black.

Sooo..
You're saying that Collins was able to dominate physically even though he wasn't very heavy (108kg)?
So you're saying that you don't need heavy players to dominate in the forwards?
So you're saying that NZ can win games with their forwards even though they haven't downed as many pies as their South African counterparts?

I must say you are starting to talk some sense now..

 

[JJR]

Sooo..
You're saying that Collins was able to dominate physically even though he wasn't very heavy (108kg)?
So you're saying that you don't need heavy players to dominate in the forwards?
So you're saying that NZ can win games with their forwards even though they haven't downed as many pies as their South African counterparts?

I must say you are starting to talk some sense now..

Spot on...weight does play a huge role, but aggression is just as much of an influence on Physical dominance.

We chow "BraaiVleis" and Conditioning in SA is a huge part of Rugby from a very early age...at age 13 i was already given a muscle building Gym Program by the Head of Rugby at my School...

On the aggression point...look at keegan Daniel, 92-95kg. He can be very aggressive, but weight does hinder him from being a dominant force at times. Anything from 107kg, added with good aggression can be a physically dominant player...when talking about the looseforwards that is.

 

[Seaton]

Dissapointed about van Staden, I thought the prognosis was that he 'just' dislocated his shoulder
He puts in some nice carries, and is decent enough in the scrum

The one player in the Vodacom cup team, Robbie Harris had a decent game, Hlapo diodn't do a lot when he came on, however the scrum became significantly weaker
However this may have been the result of Bulls subs (which weren't announced if they were made)

 

[FlukeArtist]

Reids proper positiion is as blindside and i rate him better the kano there. The lack of depth at 8 sees reid play there.
You could probably say NZ is lacking a fullout no 8 rather then a blindy.

Don't know why we are talking about NZ No 8s on a Sharks thread but... You are dreaming with that comment pal. Reid is the best number 8 in the world right now.

Right back to The Sharks v Blues.
I concede that the better team won on the day. I didn't get to see the game as it was in the middle of the night, but from the highlights it just looked like the Sharks played the conditions better and put the Blues under a lot of pressure.

Blues back to their old Jekyll and Hyde ways.
I hope Henry returns to coaching them next year when he retires from the ABs. Becuase I am getting sick of the inconsistency from these guys. Champs to Chumps in a week. Not good enough. They have all the talent in the world, but lack the application.
Until they get the top 6 inches right, they aren't going to win $#!%

 

[ranger]

Spot on...weight does play a huge role, but aggression is just as much of an influence on Physical dominance.

We chow "BraaiVleis" and Conditioning in SA is a huge part of Rugby from a very early age...at age 13 i was already given a muscle building Gym Program by the Head of Rugby at my School...

On the aggression point...look at keegan Daniel, 92-95kg. He can be very aggressive, but weight does hinder him from being a dominant force at times. Anything from 107kg, added with good aggression can be a physically dominant player.

Congratulations.. Try and find me a Super 8 or top flight Wellington or Auckland school that doesn't do that. In a couple of the schools i played against, if you made one of the elite junior teams then you not only were given a gym program, but you had "GYM" as an allocated slot on your school timetable.

There are plenty of massive gym monkeys that you seem so fond of in lower levels of NZ rugby. Its just that teams here are selected on skill and performance and not weight..

 

[JJR]

Congratulations.. Try and find me a Super 8 or top flight Wellington or Auckland school that doesn't do that. In a couple of the schools i played against, if you made one of the elite junior teams then you not only were given a gym program, but you had "GYM" as an allocated slot on your school timetable.

There are plenty of massive gym monkeys that you seem so fond of in lower levels of NZ rugby. Its just that teams here are selected on skill and performance and not weight..

So it is the same there...so why your guys in general/average smaller than ours when it comes to Locks and Looseforwards? You can't be the best rugby player you can be if your weight and conditioning is not perfect. My school also had Gym Slots and we were trained by former Bulls looseforward Ryno Combrink. We don't choose only on weight we also choose the best...look at Gio Aplon...you did not make a very good argument with that one. I never said weight was the main selection aspect...i just said weight helps you to physically dominate opposition...that does not mean that lighter guys don't have a place...the fast paced game is what allows the smaller, faster guys to find space. You just putting words in my mouth...not cool, just having a little chat...

Shame 4 u guys...it just happens that our gym monkeys are actually very talented rugby players too....Gym/Training and Rugby goes together, that is what being a professional rugby player is all about...Bigger,Better,Faster...

Don't know why we are talking about NZ No 8s on a Sharks thread but... You are dreaming with that comment pal. Reid is the best number 8 in the world right now.

Right back to The Sharks v Blues.
I concede that the better team won on the day. I didn't get to see the game as it was in the middle of the night, but from the highlights it just looked like the Sharks played the conditions better and put the Blues under a lot of pressure.

Blues back to their old Jekyll and Hyde ways.
I hope Henry returns to coaching them next year when he retires from the ABs. Becuase I am getting sick of the inconsistency from these guys. Champs to Chumps in a week. Not good enough. They have all the talent in the world, but lack the application.
Until they get the top 6 inches right, they aren't going to win $#!%

Agree...Read is a perfect No.8...Blindside? Just wasting his abilities if he plays there.

Dissapointed about van Staden, I thought the prognosis was that he 'just' dislocated his shoulder
He puts in some nice carries, and is decent enough in the scrum

The one player in the Vodacom cup team, Robbie Harris had a decent game, Hlapo diodn't do a lot when he came on, however the scrum became significantly weaker
However this may have been the result of Bulls subs (which weren't announced if they were made)

In my opinion Harris was Crap...he scrums okay, but then he just gives away penalties and walks around the park...he will not suit our style of play at all. I believe Chadwick has made the Flight. Can play 1 and 3 and is mobile too.

 

[nickdnz]

So it is the same there...so why your guys in general/average smaller than ours when it comes to Locks and Looseforwards? You can't be the best rugby player you can be if your weight and conditioning is not perfect. My school also had Gym Slots and we were trained by former Bulls looseforward Ryno Combrink. We don't choose only on weight we also choose the best...look at Gio Aplon...you did not make a very good argument with that one. I never said weight was the main selection aspect...i just said weight helps you to physically dominate opposition...that does not mean that lighter guys don't have a place...the fast paced game is what allows the smaller, faster guys to find space. You just putting words in my mouth...not cool, just having a little chat...

Shame 4 u guys...it just happens that our gym monkeys are actually very talented rugby players too....Gym/Training and Rugby goes together, that is what being a professional rugby player is all about...Bigger,Better,Faster...



Agree...Read is a perfect No.8...Blindside? Just wasting his abilities if he plays there.



In my opinion Harris was Crap...he scrums okay, but then he just gives away penalties and walks around the park...he will not suit our style of play at all. I believe Chadwick has made the Flight. Can play 1 and 3 and is mobile too.

As someone who has done gym training, before rugby, I can tell you that the best physical condition you can be in, does not necessarly mean weight. I'm 189cm (6'2'') and now roughly 116kgs. I play as a prop or number 8 (if you don't believe me, you can ask Ranger. Better get in quick before I destroy him come this rugby season), and I can tell you that while getting big is great as a prop, especially with a lot of gym work and not just laziness, there are guys who are much heavier than me, and I can bulldoze them. And I've been bumped by people 10+ kgs smaller than me as well. For any loose forward, being in prime condition doesn't just mean being big, it means making it to the breakdown everytime, and lasting the 80 minutes.

We were never talking about players like Gio Aplon, were we? We were talking about loose forwards, where the comparison was made. As for New Zealand not having the heavy guys, I'd be willing to go out on a limb here and guess that the boys out Porirua would outweigh a large majority of SA age grade forwards. In New Zealand, Polynesian players mature at a much faster rate than many of the smaller white guys. So players like Kieren Read, Richie McCaw etc, have to develope skill, as at age grade, you're going to lose every time in the size department. There are plenty of huge Number 8's around in New Zealand Super rugby, they're just not always the best options.

Peter Saili 115kgs
Nasi Manu 113kgs
Bradley Mika: 119kgs
Mathew Luamanu: 128kgs

Some of them are very good players, but they often aren't good enough to make the starting team in place of smaller, fitter, hard working guys.

 

[JJR]

As someone who has done gym training, before rugby, I can tell you that the best physical condition you can be in, does not necessarly mean weight. I'm 189cm (6'2'') and now roughly 116kgs. I play as a prop or number 8 (if you don't believe me, you can ask Ranger. Better get in quick before I destroy him come this rugby season), and I can tell you that while getting big is great as a prop, especially with a lot of gym work and not just laziness, there are guys who are much heavier than me, and I can bulldoze them. And I've been bumped by people 10+ kgs smaller than me as well. For any loose forward, being in prime condition doesn't just mean being big, it means making it to the breakdown everytime, and lasting the 80 minutes.

We were never talking about players like Gio Aplon, were we? We were talking about loose forwards, where the comparison was made. As for New Zealand not having the heavy guys, I'd be willing to go out on a limb here and guess that the boys out Porirua would outweigh a large majority of SA age grade forwards. In New Zealand, Polynesian players mature at a much faster rate than many of the smaller white guys. So players like Kieren Read, Richie McCaw etc, have to develope skill, as at age grade, you're going to lose every time in the size department. There are plenty of huge Number 8's around in New Zealand Super rugby, they're just not always the best options.

Peter Saili 115kgs
Nasi Manu 113kgs
Bradley Mika: 119kgs
Mathew Luamanu: 128kgs

Some of them are very good players, but they often aren't good enough to make the starting team in place of smaller, fitter, hard working guys.

Agree...
Main thing is BMI and Body Fat. Also depends what type of game the side wants to play. Eg.Kankowski is ideal for a fast and dry day game, whereas in the wet someone like Alberts at 8 would be the better option to pick up at the back of the scrum.
I am 1.79 and 86kg and play wing, but i need to get to at least 90kg. I have been 90kg, and it affected my step and agility a lot, but now i am playing 13 again so need to put some Bulk back on. My weight changes from year to year...Sevens then 15's , then sevens again...really frustrating.

When will we see Mika and Manu in starting 15's again...like to watch these type of players.

On the subject again..yes, weight is not everything, but it sure helps depending on your position.
Backs BMi should be at least around 28-29
Ball carrying Loosies- around 30
Locks also 28-30
Props- around 32.
But Body fat must be in correct range though...obviously.

Off topic...what 22 would you like to see 4 NZ in the world Cup?

My SA team is quite a lot different to how it does look past few years.
1.Guthro Steenkamp/Beast
2.John Smit (c)
3.J. Du Plessis
4.Bakkies Botha
5. Matfield
6.Burger/Brussouw
7.Jean Deysel
8.Alberts
9.Du Preez
10.Lambie/Butch james
11.Mvovo
12.JDV
13.Adi Jacobs
14.JPP/Habana
15.Frans Steyn

16.Bismark
17.Beast/Steenkamp
18.Andries Bekker
19.Heinrich Brussouw/Burger
20.Charl Mcloed
21.Lambie/Butch
22.Meyer Bosman

News Update-

Jean Deysel will join the Touring party either in Melbourne or in New Zealand the next week.
Van Staden has been replaced by Dale Chadwick; van staden popped his AC Joint and will be out for 3-6 weeks.
Ross Skeate won't join the touring party unless urgently required...Skeate is on an intense Gym Program to strengthen his Legs at the Moment and Plum wants him to complete the program without interference.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Agree...
Off topic...what 22 would you like to see 4 NZ in the world Cup?

1 John Afoa
2 Aled de Malmanche
3 Neemia Tialata
4 Jason Eaton
5 Ali Williams
6 Tanero Latimer
7 Liam Messam
8 Victor Vito
9 Andy Ellis
10 Steven Brett
11 Joe Rokocoko
12 Stephen Donald
13 Rene Ranger
14 Lelia Masaga
15 Mils Muliaina

 

[JJR]

News-
It Seems The Sharks have not quite left the heat of Durban (February/March)...it seems Perth is experiencing a heat wave and the Temp hovers around 34 Celsius...that is flippin hot...

 

[Darwin]

Agree...
When will we see Mika and Manu in starting 15's again...like to watch these type of players.

I think Brad Mika is out for at least another month.... he's unlikely to get many starts for the Blues. You may see Saili or Luamanu starting for the Blues within the next few weeks as Lowrey has been largely ineffective thus far. If you like watching big loose forwards keep an eye out for Luamanu - he's the biggest loose forward I have ever seen (128kg is possibly an underestimate!) and he can be devastating with the ball in hand.

Nasi Manu is starting at number 8 for the Highlanders at the moment. He's been great with the ball in hand (when he's managed to hold onto it), but his defense has been shocking for a loose-forward. Another big Highlanders loose-forward to keep an eye out for is Elliot Dixon, though he's probably unlikely to get much game time this year, as he is only young (just turned 21).