The "Religion" thread

[jacovw]

Yea it's cruel it's mean and your point is exactly right, we're sinking deeper into our own mess! but that's the point it's our mess! You see Pieter de Villiers didn't have to stick with Jake White's Team, but he did and the results are proving themselves at the moment! In the same way God build this awesome world then put us in charge, to govern and run it... and we messed it up! He gave us the ability to fix it too but unless everybody puts their heads together that's never gonna happen. That is the only hope we have that one day he will come and put it all right, another choice, live with no hope or with that hope. That's why God tells us to trust in him, because in the end only he will stay true and trustworthy.

If you feel like life is a waste that's because it is... no offense just hear me out. I felt like my life was a waste while i was getting paid R16000-00 a month, no purpose, no hope! then I lost my job turned to the church in desperation (always takes that doesn't it?). All i had was R7-00 Rand and a R700-00 speeding fine, so i put that seven into the collection bags and kinda prayed seriously for the first time "hey help me out a bit wont You?". That Monday I get a phone call "Alright you haven't paid your fine we're sending it to the courts!" (During KZN's Zero-tolerance time!). Five minutes later I get another call from the same guy he pipes up "Okay your fine got stuck in the Fax machine, ummm, just don't do it again alright!"

Neither God nor I will promise anyone else the same thing, and I have seen only one or two bigger "coincidences-linked-to-prayer" since then (nine years), but when I've been in a real jam things would usually work itself out and at this stage i can truly say i'm living with purpose! Worshiping God is a privilege not a purpose but he places desires in our heart and when you start following those desires we start living on purpose. Now you don't have to be a Christian to fulfill that: so quit your job and follow your dreams! It sounds crazy but it's worth it. I'm teaching and studying in China at the moment, with the ideal of reaching my dreams to be a Teacher and a Rugby Coach.

It's easy when you try!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 03:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

P.S. if I'm wrong about all this Christianity stuff, then I've lived a happy life with a good wife and have brought up my children in a decent self/others respecting way and still have nothing to fear when i die! If I'm right, all the above is still true for me, but for those who don't agree, you might have some trouble... just something to ponder, you know use it, don't use it...[/b]

Thats Pascels wager (or Parcels I cant remember). He, as a scientist deduced that it was a better bet to believe than not believe as you have a greater chance of getting a return on the bet. If there is a god great your in, if not you lose nothing.

The standard answer to that is that any omnipotent (he's all singing and all dancing isnt he) god would identify that charade straight away and ............... bang .............. down to hell with you ye lying sod!

Faith by its very nature is not something you can just choose though is it? You have to be convinced first. Educated adults are an absolute ***** to convince (as Faith is effectively admitting you believe in something you know cant be true) so the churches focuses on children and the less well educated. Either way, they attack those that simply dont know any better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 05:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Guys God is Love[/b]

Have you read the old testiment?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 03:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

But if our Modern Scientific way of thinking was so great then let's compare the Christian Age of Science to the Modern Age of Science.[/b]

Ahhh crap, and there I was thinking that the Athiests who invented most of this stuff should have taken the credit. Your right though it was all down to christian thinking. Alternatively, you could ask where we would be now if the church hadnt gone out of its way to burn all the independnt thinkers centuries before.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

and we messed it up! He gave us the ability to fix it[/b]

But we werent even here. So not only do I have to deal with the guilt associated with god killing his own son for me (he shouldnt have bothered) but now its my fault all those millions of other species are extinct, even when the human race wasnt here?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

but when I've been in a real jam things would usually work itself out[/b]

Why did god help you out with your fine but babies still get bone cancer?

 

[Meh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bull @ Oct 23 2009, 06:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 04:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

P.S. if I'm wrong about all this Christianity stuff, then I've lived a happy life with a good wife and have brought up my children in a decent self/others respecting way and still have nothing to fear when i die! If I'm right, all the above is still true for me, but for those who don't agree, you might have some trouble... just something to ponder, you know use it, don't use it...[/b]

I've heard a very good saying before; 

I'd Rather live my life as if there's God, and die to find out there isn't, than to live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.
[/b][/quote]

Pascal's Wager?

It is fairly good logic actually.


Also, I can't add much more to what O'Rothlain has said - he's explained it pretty well. But basically I find that science works out the how, my Christian belief works out the why. They're two different camps as far as I'm concerned. Some people even think Evolution and Christian faith are compatible. My belief in God is based mainly on experiences I've had in my life. Scientific proof isn't going to nullify that really, especially when science is so incomplete.

Certainly interesting stuff though.

 

[Meh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

The standard answer to that is that any omnipotent (he's all singing and all dancing isnt he) god would identify that charade straight away and ............... bang .............. down to hell with you ye lying sod![/b]

There's a difference between the motive and actual belief though - some people might see the logic in believing in God and then research or look into the possibility. Which is different to just saying - Oh, if God exists I'm alright, I'll believe then.

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

That Monday I get a phone call "Alright you haven't paid your fine we're sending it to the courts!" (During KZN's Zero-tolerance time!). Five minutes later I get another call from the same guy he pipes up "Okay your fine got stuck in the Fax machine, ummm, just don't do it again alright!"

Neither God nor I will promise anyone else the same thing, and I have seen only one or two bigger "coincidences-linked-to-prayer" since then (nine years), but when I've been in a real jam things would usually work itself out and at this stage i can truly say i'm living with purpose![/b]

Truly a miracle! I bet the *** who couldn't send a fax was an angel.
... So why doesn't "god" heal amputees and stop babies in central Africa from dying of hunger? Obviously your speeding fine, due to lawlessness, has a higher priority than human life.
Like I said before, our belief systems skew our reality to what we think is happening.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 04:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 22 2009, 08:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting comment about people believing less in religion nowdays than ever before. IMO This is mainly due the information age and scientific enlightenment. People for centuries have used religion as a spot gap for things they don't understand.

The Greeks are a classic example, they had sea gods and so on. Basically a god for everything in life that's uncontrollable. Nowdays we can predict weather patterns to predict ocean weather systems, where in ancient times it would seem spontaneous. People didn't know about high & low pressure systems and the science behind weather systems, so they'd use a god as a stop gap. It's off their minds, and they'd feel a sense of enlightenment. They now "know" why this & that happens. As you can imagine this would be a huge relief on one's conscious. Please the gods (sacrifice, temples, pray) and feel like you are doing your bit in controlling the uncontrollable.

Zeus in Greek mythology is the 'god of the sky and thunder', on the other side of the world in total isolation, Polynesians cultures had a god of thunder called "Haikili". Coincidence? I think not!

Perhaps these religions, like 1000's of others, didn't gain popularity because they got found out eventually. These types of religions and beliefs were to precise IMO. Christianity and Islam seem to have captured more peoples fascination. Or it hits the right chords of insecurity and vulnerability in the human psyche. Do good and go to a place of euphoria (highest form pleasure) or do bad and go to a place of pain (highest form of torture/discomfort).
It also helps that Middle East and European countries were powerful during certain periods of time. It's no surprise that there are alot of Christians on the western side of Africa and more Islamic followers on the eastern side. Countries like India still have their 'indigenous religions' as their major religions due to being isolated more to some extent. Religion is like a culture you inherit from society and your reference group (family, friends).

I know, very trivial look on religion, but if you can look at it detached and in an abstract way it reveals a very interesting part of human psychology.

EDIT: PS I'm not doing the 'I'm right & you wrong' thing here. I'm just very secure in my view of religion as a culture/human psychology, that's why I can speak about it like a trivial subject.[/b]

Okay Stop the Bus Boys!
I agree with one thing: it's our modern scientific world view that's stopping the spread of Christianity! But if our Modern Scientific way of thinking was so great then let's compare the Christian Age of Science to the Modern Age of Science. When the West was predominately Christian (in their world view) we had the inventions of cars, light bulbs, electricity, and a endless list of things that shaped and affect our lives today. Since the West's predominately Atheist world view we've had the inventions of discussion threads on which is better!

P.S. if I'm wrong about all this Christianity stuff, then I've lived a happy life with a good wife and have brought up my children in a decent self/others respecting way and still have nothing to fear when i die! If I'm right, all the above is still true for me, but for those who don't agree, you might have some trouble... just something to ponder, you know use it, don't use it...
[/b][/quote]

It had to slip out eventually. Religion is a form of tribalism as indicated in the bolded part.

This attitude of, "Yeah you can have your opinions but you still gonna burn in hell", is common amongst intolerable religions such as Christianity.

Before I say anything further keep these 2 verses in mind:

Exodus 21:20

---

So yes very loving god indeed.
I bet the Sunday school teachers will leave those out though! Rather stick with the dude who lived in a giant fish for few days and the big boat with all the animals on it.

As a god obeying man you MUST obey these commandants of god, you can't sit on the fence. As indicated by Revelation 3:16: "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth."

So you gonna get your most favouritist stone in 'teh whole wide worldz' ready for when a unruly teenage in your town gets out of hand? Oh wait that's a contradiction. Something about 'you who have not sinned cast the first stone'. Very convient contradiction. But I guess the unemployed can kill the people at Spar for working on a Sunday.

Resource used for verses:
http://www.yourgodisimaginary.com/index.htm

 

[dullonien]

I'm not keen on the way you view God Jacovw. On the one hand you say that he provided us this wonderful world, it's up to us to treat it right. In other words, none of the suffering on this world is due to God, it's somehow always our fault. And yet, God then get's all the praise for anything good done on this earth, i.e. your fine. I don't see how the two can work together. Either God oversees everything, helping people out when he feels like it, but also heaping loads of pain on others. Or he has no influence in anything that happens on this earth.

If a surgeon saves someones life even though the odds were against it, was that God's doing or the surgeons? When an old lady, who's worshiped God her entire life, get's attacked by some thug, is that God's doing, or the attackers?

I have no problem in you believing in Christianity, I have a problem in your inconsistent views on God's day to day influence.

 

[KZNSharksFan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 20 2009, 04:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well, this isn't the first "religion" thread on this forum and it surely won't be the last.
So, what am I sick of?
1)
Half-assed opinions of religion. You don't bother to take the time to study a religion but are more than willing to offer your criticism based on hearsay from half-assed followers of said religion.
Here's the problem with the majority of Christians today: they don't fully practice their religious faith and know very little about it. Then people like the previous posters get their ideals of Christianity from these people and make absurd statements about God and the Devil, etc...

2)
Creationism and Evolution are both theories of how the earth was made. End of the story, there is nothing more scientific about Evolutionist Big Bang than there is Creationist...uhm...Creation. This is not me saying that Natural Selection doesn't take place, I'm merely talking about how the earth began...We don't know how it began, so regardless of what we teach, it's an unprovable theory. So, what is wrong with presenting both theories? Saying, some people believe theory A, some people believe theory B. The truth is we don't know. Then move on from the subject.

3)
What irks me about some of your rambling is you are attacking Christianity which for better or worse has created the world you live in. Without the organization of the church, Western Civilization wouldn't be where we are today. I know you can say without religion a lot of horrible things wouldn't have happend too. The simple point is it got us to where we are, which is vastly far ahead of the rest of the un-Western world.[/b]

1)

Very good point I thought. Many, in fact almost all people I have ever met who have put forth an idea/interpretation of christianity have done so with minimal knowledge about the history of the religion and use vague statements and "heresay" to back up their arguments.
I feel this only begs the question then, that, as religion is (in most forms) meant to be applicable to all of humankind, WHY is it so damned non-intuitive, with vague definitions and directions to the "correct way of living". Surely if a mightier entity deemed it important that we live and behave in certain ways, then said entity would have made it a bit fu***** clearer as to what religion to follow! And made "religion" more suitable to the scope of human perception, that is: making religion something that is far more tangible, logical and suitable to the human condition than it is!

2)

Now, I know for sure that there is a LOT of scientific evidence, proven through the faultlessness of the scientific method, that puts forth a very compelling case for how the earth was formed etc. The funny thing is, there is evidence that supports the theory of evolution, the big bang etc, yet no evidence whatsoever that supports the theory of creationism.

3) That's just f****** ridiculous. YES the church was what granted the early European monarchs their power through the worship of the King/Queen as a semi-god, and the organisation of nations through central authorities did contribute to vast social and technological advancements. However, improvements in trade and exploration accounted for the exponential growth of science and social science from the 1500's onwards.

To say that the church is responsible for the state of the modern world is ludicrous, when, during the crusades of the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries, christianity systematically stripped/stole Islamic nations of their advances in science and mathematics (a notable example being the arabic numbering system and the concept of the number "0", information everyone disregards as basic knowledge, but which was the foundation of renaissance mathematicians studies, modern engineering and indeed the post medieval world)

I personally believe there is some higher power, whether that be some all knowing, all powerful entity or indeed the sum total of the physical laws of the universe, past present and future. Which one? I don't know, though what I do know is that I know far too little to pass any sweeping judgement on the matter, and I have a strong suspicion that that applies to all of human kind, though most would try to deny it.

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Meh @ Oct 23 2009, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Some people even think Evolution and Christian faith are compatible.[/b]

Christians say that, and to do so means you must acknowledge that god was telling a bit of a fib in the bible eh?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Meh @ Oct 23 2009, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

There's a difference between the motive and actual belief though - some people might see the logic in believing in God and then research or look into the possibility. Which is different to just saying - Oh, if God exists I'm alright, I'll believe then.[/b]

So if you really really really really try to force yourself to believe your alright?

Either way, what if there is a god but your religion is the wrong one! What is Apollo was the real one. Then your truly fooked and ............. well I may be able to sneak in. You'd imagine its probably a better option to remain independent of all of them.

Oh and +1 what Steve said.

 

[jacovw]

Sorry i'll be sure to include tons of smily faces next time I crack a joke (the i'm fine you're in trouble thing)! Please guys I don't want us to lose our sense of humor! That's depressing!

But as to my view on God and the statements in the law of Moses:

First things first; God's people were to be a unique completely separated people group of whom everybody would say, "oh of course these people are so holy and stuff they must serve the real God!" the stricter the penalty the more the crime drops and every SA boy on this Forum says Amen! Now repeatedly there were prophesies of a new law that would be written on peoples heart instead of on stone tablets, this is why i will not have to stone my daughter (don't have a future springbok fly half yet). The Bible clearly states that Jesus came to perfect the Law... oh and by the way any of those sins that were committed could be atoned for with a sacrifice, so teenagers weren't being dragged out and stoned just to see how brittle they are, in fact you would probably see father and son walking through the streets with a goat and daddy saying: "you are going to make me a very poor man with all this sinning!" These Sacrifices could not cover sin forever cause hey a goat can only cover that much of a Drunk teen saying "NNNNOOOO MMAAA, I'm SHHHOBER!" Just like today people were misinterpreting (or actually abusing) what God was trying to say, so Jesus came to set the record straight, knock down death and save humanity (all in a day's work if you're perfect!). There are stunning examples in every chapter of the old testament of God's love and forgiveness! Trust me old testament Loving God is one of my Favorite subjects.

As for the more powerful argument: why do children and babies have to suffer... Man the normal response would be we live in a fallen world and sometimes good people get hurt, might be 100% true but i would blame no one if that just didn't seem sufficient, I don't know how many times i wish i had the right answer, but alas i have to trust that as He has proven in so many cases that he will not waste their hurt...

My fine getting sorted did save a life, though, it saved mine... stupid as that may sound it was one of those moments of testing that was going to decide a future. That moment turned me into an honest man who has not received a ticket since, who has not got drunk and rowdy since, and who is a good Father and Husband to his Family. So if I may get defensive for one minute: Don't ever, ever... diminish defining moments just because you have not experienced it to the positive in your own life (or even if you have!).

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Don't ever, ever... diminish delusional moments in another just because you have not experienced it to the positive in your own life (or even if you have!).[/b]

Fixed that for you.

If you dont want to be ridiculed about your dementia, keep it to yourself.

 

[Jer1cho]

My CPU in my PC died a couple of days ago. So, i posted on facebook to everyone that i need some help in order to get a new one before rAge2009 (The countries largest LAN event.) That same day, my dad called, asked what happened, and gave me R1500.00 Then a mate gave me some more cash, followed by my sister, and then i got a new processor THE VERY SAME DAY. Does this mean i should pray to Facebook? Seeing as it answered me, by telling my family members and friends to help pitch in?

I think it's rubbish that you can choose what God helped you with, and what he didn't. That fax machine thing you were talking about, immediately spelled it out. Before even thinking rationally, that just maybe, some twat was working the machine for the first time, or that there was any possibility that it was caused by human error, you automatically attribute it to divine intervention. I'm sorry, but it's that kind of irrational thinking that prevent's me from even trying to convince myself that prayers are actually answered.

 

[Steve-o]

Alright Jaco I can see you obviously attached to your religion as you're countering with pure emotion. I know it's a very deep personal choice to follow a religion. I did for many years, trust me, I was deep into this stuff but it never really sat well with me. Me walking away from Christianity has changed my life for the better. I now feel free and enlightened, and not afraid of death. I have accepted for myself that death is coming and it will be much like before I was born. Nothing.
I'm not gonna say anything more on the matter as people have interested their lifes in a subject like this, which distorts what could be a good debate, as well educated people refuse to think critically when it comes to religion. Quite off putting really.

 

[jacovw]

Two things:

I never called it a miracle! And I never said Human error did not cause it! And I never said screwy office equipment didn't attribute to the process. My point was it was pretty great how at one of the lowest points and longest runs of bad luck in my life, all these errors fell nicely alongside my first serious prayer... You gotta agree that's nice you don't have to agree it's supernatural just darn nice!

And I was just asking that we keep a good sense of fair play and not get personal here when i said you shouldn't diminish defining moments!

Oh and you can't choose what God helps you with, if he thought it was just a clever little ploy on my side to duck the law, who knows... but he knew the change that would happen that's what prompted the positive answer to prayer. God Answers every prayer prayed in faith, and quite often also those in desperation!

 

[jacovw]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Oct 23 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't ever, ever... diminish delusional moments in another just because you have not experienced it to the positive in your own life (or even if you have!).[/b]

Fixed that for you.

If you dont want to be ridiculed about your dementia, keep it to yourself.
[/b][/quote]

delusion [dɪˈluːʒən]
n
1. (Psychiatry) a mistaken or misleading opinion, idea, belief, etc. he has delusions of grandeur
2. (Psychiatry) Psychiatry a belief held in the face of evidence to the contrary, that is resistant to all reason See also illusion, hallucination
3. (Psychiatry) the act of deluding or state of being deluded

Then I'm one sick puppy!
1. i did not have a delusion of praying or of either phone call it all happened
2. truth be told i can only give you the evidence of my wife who was there when it happened
3. this could be true if they were lying to me and the Fine is still lying there just waiting to gobble me up

I said "Defining Moments" meaning a moment that changed my life
If it was a delusion then surely i'm just imagining a change in my life? Aren't you Irish don't get personal I like the Irish!

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Oct 23 2009, 11:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Thats Pascels wager (or Parcels I cant remember). He, as a scientist deduced that it was a better bet to believe than not believe as you have a greater chance of getting a return on the bet. If there is a god great your in, if not you lose nothing.[/b]

Pascal's.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Oct 23 2009, 11:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Educated adults are an absolute ***** to convince (as Faith is effectively admitting you believe in something you know cant be true) so the churches focuses on children and the less well educated. Either way, they attack those that simply dont know any better.[/b]

No, wrong way round. Faith requires belief in something that can't be proven. Wise people tend to accept this. It's the uneducated who need everything to be shown to them.

I don't really defend religion. I have enough experience to know that organisations that work on principle rather than by trying to fix every fiddly problem allow a lot more freedom to the people. So christianity's struggle to reconcile faith and reason is very interesting to me. It's certainly far superior to Islam's chaos.

Social engineering by big church or big government is distressing. And historical debates and shouting matches over the badges of religion and atheism not so interesting.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

As for the more powerful argument: why do children and babies have to suffer... Man the normal response would be we live in a fallen world and sometimes good people get hurt, might be 100% true but i would blame no one if that just didn't seem sufficient, I don't know how many times i wish i had the right answer, but alas i have to trust that as He has proven in so many cases that he will not waste their hurt...[/b]

Let's treat it like you'd treat any other intellectual discussion. In every single important discussion, if someone makes a claim, it must be backed up by evidence.

For example, I can claim "Swaziland is bigger than South Africa". To back up my claim, I have to then quote a source, with facts on population and/ or land area data for the two countries to back me up.

I cannot claim this to be true and then say "It's bigger cos my mate Dave says so"; or "It's bigger cos I can draw a map"; or any other innacurate answer. If someone then has a counter-claim to make, I expect similar detailed evidence.

So, with the religion question. Jacovw, you claim that there is a Christian God, who is still active in the world today. I would like to see some hard evidence to support this.

Many atheists claim that the Big Bang theory is what created the Universe. Since the Big Bang Theory is not hard evidence either, we cannot convincingly say that this is the true origin of the Universe either.

So, I'll use my brain to scythe my way towards the truth. Which is that we cannot perfectly explain many things about the Universe we live in. Think on the subject and you should be at peace with the fact that some things, so far, are unexplainable. I think the Big Bang Theory is the more credible of the thousands of theories that have been thought up by mankind to explain our origins, but we cannot rely on it. And if we cannot fully trust the most credible theory, then we certainly cannot trust the rest.

Bringing 'trust' or 'faith' into a discussion is the same as bringing in hearsay or made-up facts. If you want to stubbornly go on believeing, go ahead. But do it as an individual, and on shaky intellectual grounds.

 

[dullonien]

I can understand how people cn interpret certain acts, as acts from God. Hot so sure you should have done so with something as small as a fax machine jamming jacovw, however I can understand due to the whole experience you had. One member of my family went through a similar thing in her life. She had always been a religious person, but had stopped believing due to a number of things happening in her life. It had become so bad, that one day she decided she'd end it all. She bought a load of pain killers and a bottle of booze, and sat on her bed building up the courage to do so. At that moment an old friend that she haddn't spoken to in years called her on her mobile to catch up (he happened to be a religious person), and she burst into tears and told him everything. He instantly dropped everything and drove a few hours to be with her and help her through this hard time in her life. Church became an important part of her healing process. She trully believes that God interviened in her life on that day, saving her.

I suppose in part this is why I try and understand why people believe in Christianity etc. Although I see that same event as a very fortunate coincidence, she sees things differently (who can blame her?). This is why I maintain that there is a place in this world for religion and God, if that's what someone needs or chooses.

 

[jacovw]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 23 2009, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Alright Jaco I can see you obviously attached to your religion as you're countering with pure emotion. I know it's a very deep personal choice to follow a religion. I did for many years, trust me, I was deep into this stuff but it never really sat well with me. Me walking away from Christianity has changed my life for the better. I now feel free and enlightened, and not afraid of death. I have accepted for myself that death is coming and it will be much like before I was born. Nothing.
I'm not gonna say anything more on the matter as people have interested their lifes in a subject like this, which distorts what could be a good debate, as well educated people refuse to think critically when it comes to religion. Quite off putting really.[/b]

Thanks Bru

You're Right, I think my first mention of it was just to prove a point i was trying to make but carrying on is stupid and of the topic. if someone disagrees tough cookies it's not like i'm loosing a great buddy! Sorry guys will keep it to the point! (or try at least!)

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 24 2009, 03:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

So, with the religion question. Jacovw, you claim that there is a Christian God, who is still active in the world today. I would like to see some hard evidence to support this....

... Bringing 'trust' or 'faith' into a discussion is the same as bringing in hearsay or made-up facts. If you want to stubbornly go on believeing, go ahead. But do it as an individual, and on shaky intellectual grounds.[/b]

But you're begging the question - faith is based on belief, not evidence, so demanding evidence is beside the point. Your argument is not logical, captain.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 24 2009, 03:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Many atheists claim that the Big Bang theory is what created the Universe. Since the Big Bang Theory is not hard evidence either, we cannot convincingly say that this is the true origin of the Universe.

So, I'll use my brain to scythe my way towards the truth. Which is that we cannot perfectly explain many things about the Universe we live in. Think on the subject and you should be at peace with the fact that some things, so far, are unexplainable. I think the Big Bang Theory is the more credible of the thousands of theories that have been thought up by mankind to explain our origins, but we cannot rely on it. And if we cannot fully trust the most credible theory, then we certainly cannot trust the rest.[/b]

Big Bang theory doesn't dispose of god. It still leaves the matter of the uncaused cause, which is usually referred to as god. Faith recognises that it is impossible to know god, and is therefore intellectually consistent, whereas science throws its hands up in despair because it has to know god before it can accept god.

Evolution is a trickier matter for believers - but that's just a theory as well, although a lot of people take it as proven.

 

[jacovw]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 23 2009, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As for the more powerful argument: why do children and babies have to suffer... Man the normal response would be we live in a fallen world and sometimes good people get hurt, might be 100% true but i would blame no one if that just didn't seem sufficient, I don't know how many times i wish i had the right answer, but alas i have to trust that as He has proven in so many cases that he will not waste their hurt...[/b]

Let's treat it like you'd treat any other intellectual discussion. In every single important discussion, if someone makes a claim, it must be backed up by evidence.

For example, I can claim "Swaziland is bigger than South Africa". To back up my claim, I have to then quote a source, with facts on population and/ or land area data for the two countries to back me up.

I cannot claim this to be true and then say "It's bigger cos my mate Dave says so"; or "It's bigger cos I can draw a map"; or any other innacurate answer. If someone then has a counter-claim to make, I expect similar detailed evidence.

So, with the religion question. Jacovw, you claim that there is a Christian God, who is still active in the world today. I would like to see some hard evidence to support this.

Many atheists claim that the Big Bang theory is what created the Universe. Since the Big Bang Theory is not hard evidence either, we cannot convincingly say that this is the true origin of the Universe either.

So, I'll use my brain to scythe my way towards the truth. Which is that we cannot perfectly explain many things about the Universe we live in. Think on the subject and you should be at peace with the fact that some things, so far, are unexplainable. I think the Big Bang Theory is the more credible of the thousands of theories that have been thought up by mankind to explain our origins, but we cannot rely on it. And if we cannot fully trust the most credible theory, then we certainly cannot trust the rest.

Bringing 'trust' or 'faith' into a discussion is the same as bringing in hearsay or made-up facts. If you want to stubbornly go on believeing, go ahead. But do it as an individual, and on shaky intellectual grounds.
[/b][/quote]

Well I think most of what I said Agrees exactly with what you're saying, sorry i can't prove it but for personal experience, which I've promised Steve-O i won't get into... but can you disprove his existence... this whole proof argument is wet, none of what we speak about as far as God and Creation, or No-God and Evolution can be reproduced in a lab. Just yesterday the theory on how the moon was formed had changed, until yesterday all evidence seemed solid cause it was all they had...