The "Religion" thread

[jacovw]

OK, this is a rugby forum so...

If you play against a team, you tend to isolate and attack their strong points to diminish their effect... When I say what I'm about to say I ask you to hear what i'm saying and not what i'm not saying!

It seems like we all agree that man is bad naturally, cos c'mon guys it takes much more effort to be mother Theresa than to be a rucking, punching & eye gauging hooker! so it's easier to be a conduit for bad (i'll refrain from calling it Evil, you know people skills and all that!) than for good...

To the point. What is the thing us "conduits" of bad are attacking more than anything else? Christianity! And if faith is the Hugo Porta of the Christian Team then Love is the Gareth Edwards! Now bad, or Evil, or anybody else is trying to hammer the Gareth Edwards/Hugo Porta half back combo as we can clearly see in this thread. It's funny guys, this battle has been raging since the beginning (won't get into that), and i found the reference to Darwin being taught since the sixties laughable, how can we compare that to something as big as Christianity or Jesus, no matter what you believe about him, he inspired a faith whose book has hit #1 on the best seller list ever since it was first printed, obviously superior to the origin of species, the koran, lord of the rings and harry potter, the last for deserved of being named together! (sorry that last statement was probably taking a knock at Gareth Edwards, ie. not very loving!)

Give credit where credit is due, please!
I personally can't wait to play our beloved game in Heaven, yea it will be there, along with beautifull green pitches, no clouds!

 

[Meh]

Well, might as well give my two cents in this thread as I'm Christian.

I don't particularly follow 'organise religion' though. Churches are great for fellowship and meeting other Christians but aren't a basis for life imo - if you miss it who cares basically. My faith is a personal relationship with God if that makes sense and I don't feel the need to tell everybody about it all the time.

I think that's the best way to do things. It's also what annoys me about other fundie christians and also fundie Atheists that seem to enjoy telling me I'm stupid for believing in a mythical being - they can sod it as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Meh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Why dont you hear of Athiest suicide bombers?

Its bullshit, the entire middle eastern conflict is based on the Jews "divine" rites as set out in Exodus. An event that archaeologists have pretty much proven never took place in the first place. Bosnia, Iraq (ongoing), Afghanistan (ongoing), Northern Ireland, Pakistan, Somalia, The Sudan, the Holocaust ................. f*** it, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Jihads through the ages. Remove religion and these people have little to fight over. The world would still have some form of violence, but a hell of a lot less. I'd take that thank you very much.[/b]

This I always found a bit of a narrow argument.

The thing is, atheism isn't a strict organisation whereas religion too often is. People forget that in China and North Korea atheists persecution people for believing in religion in their millions. The difference is they do it in the name of an ideology, not a religion. Quite convenient that I think.

 

[O'Rothlain]

Nice to see a few other people putting there hands up on the pro-faith side. Nice analogies. The only reason I argue back so much is that the statements made are as bad as some of the statements made by ultra-right, fundamental Christians. It's like when Christians say that Darwin had a deathbed conversion to Christianity. He didn't. He was always a Deist, just like the participants in the Enlightenment and the founding fathers of America. Deists and Christians are two totally seperate things. My point being is that your attacks on Christianity are largely either misinformed or based on personal frustration. I gaurantee I've had as many bad "church" experiences as the next guys and know how bad people who "profess with their mouths" can act. The church itself, because it is made of man, can be very, very flawed. It's not the church I stand up for but the faith and the principles. Having said that, organized religion still has it's place. As Meh said, it's a great place to meet fellow believers. "Iron sharpens Iron," and so sometimes, just like this forum, we come to meet with other ruggers, we must meet with other christians to discuss our faith, get spiritual help and coaching, and have a good time. The church has it's place, and always will. While it may be flawed, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[bristol-iain]

I've sat and watched this thread develop without commenting on it.

I'm an atheist, or more accuratley, I feel science has put forward a far more convincing arguement to creation. I find it impossible that a "divine spirit" made evreything we know and believ that the universe was created through a chemical reaction of some sort.

But I'm not one of those who will discount peoples faiths as they have the right to belive what they want but there are times when you wonder if believing whet they do is actually the right thing to do.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Oct 22 2009, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I've sat and watched this thread develop without commenting on it.

I'm an atheist, or more accuratley, I feel science has put forward a far more convincing arguement to creation. I find it impossible that a "divine spirit" made evreything we know and believ that the universe was created through a chemical reaction of some sort.

But I'm not one of those who will discount peoples faiths as they have the right to belive what they want but there are times when you wonder if believing whet they do is actually the right thing to do.[/b]

Does it not take Faith to believe in the "scientific explanation"? I find it impossible to believe that a random cosmic event started this all without purpose or plot. Yet, somehow you believe that. You have faith in that. I'm not saying you're religious about it, but it takes a leap to believe it. Maybe it takes less faith to believe what you believe. But it's not like we, the religious few, don't sometimes struggle with believing. This is where our faith kicks in.

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 22 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Oct 22 2009, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've sat and watched this thread develop without commenting on it.

I'm an atheist, or more accuratley, I feel science has put forward a far more convincing arguement to creation. I find it impossible that a "divine spirit" made evreything we know and believ that the universe was created through a chemical reaction of some sort.

But I'm not one of those who will discount peoples faiths as they have the right to belive what they want but there are times when you wonder if believing whet they do is actually the right thing to do.[/b]

Does it not take Faith to believe in the "scientific explanation"? I find it impossible to believe that a random cosmic event started this all without purpose or plot. Yet, somehow you believe that. You have faith in that. I'm not saying you're religious about it, but it takes a leap to believe it. Maybe it takes less faith to believe what you believe. But it's not like we, the religious few, don't sometimes struggle with believing. This is where our faith kicks in.
[/b][/quote]

I wouldnt say I had faith in the Big Bang, I just accept its the more plausible outcome and get on with life.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Oct 22 2009, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 22 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Oct 22 2009, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've sat and watched this thread develop without commenting on it.

I'm an atheist, or more accuratley, I feel science has put forward a far more convincing arguement to creation. I find it impossible that a "divine spirit" made evreything we know and believ that the universe was created through a chemical reaction of some sort.

But I'm not one of those who will discount peoples faiths as they have the right to belive what they want but there are times when you wonder if believing whet they do is actually the right thing to do.[/b]

Does it not take Faith to believe in the "scientific explanation"? I find it impossible to believe that a random cosmic event started this all without purpose or plot. Yet, somehow you believe that. You have faith in that. I'm not saying you're religious about it, but it takes a leap to believe it. Maybe it takes less faith to believe what you believe. But it's not like we, the religious few, don't sometimes struggle with believing. This is where our faith kicks in.
[/b][/quote]

I wouldnt say I had faith in the Big Bang, I just accept its the more plausible outcome and get on with life.
[/b][/quote]
I think your making faith into a much bigger thing than it is, because by definition faith is simply having confidence in something. You have a sense of confidence, or at least comfortability with the idea of the big bang, which allows you to get on with life.

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 22 2009, 04:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think your making faith into a much bigger thing than it is, because by definition faith is simply having confidence in something.[/b]

Did you not just talk about "absolute truths" as a result of revealed learning? That sounds like a lot more then just confidence. You are absolutely sure in your beliefs, you've said it quite frequently. There is a massive difference between that and an Athiests acceptance of the more plausable.

And the attacks are not misinformed, certainly not based on personal frustration, and to be honest they aren't all on Christianity. I suppose rugby still has to have an impact on the Muslim world.

My original post was mainly looking at the spread of Islam (Christian figures are high, but falling in the US) around the world, and due to the fact that its inherently a violent religion, should we begin to look at it as the threat it could offer? Are we walking towards an East (thems be the Muslims) vs. West (that be the Christians) religious confrontation.

You were the one who jumped in with little doozies like "Creationism and Evolution are both theories of how the earth was made, and there is nothing more scientific about Evolutionist Big Bang than there is Creationist...uhm...Creation". and you suggested we just drop it?

I can't help but think that is simply delusional and it's hard not to be frustrated by such statements. In fact I'm still not sure if your just winding me up as it sounds like something I would say in the Player of 2009 thread.

One of the pre-requisites for anything to be accepted as a "theory" is that it can be tested. Natural Selection can and has been tested (successfully). The big bang is THE big mystery but they are at least still trying to crack it (CERN). A lot of the science around the creation of the planets, stars etc has already been established, tested and is accepted.

The idea of creationism cannot be tested. In order to test this idea you need to suspend the laws of physics (speed of light and all that nonsense), acknowledge that humans and dinosaurs lived side by side (and forget about carbon dating, and laired sediment as a form of dating, that's flawed), accept the genealogy back to Adam as set out in the bible, believe the great flood actually happened, accept that the bible is the word of god, acknowledge that all other religions (1000's of em) have been wrong and so close to 100% of the historic population, and close to ¾ of the current of the earth are doomed to burn in hell, accept that the rest of the universe is just a nice decoration for us to look at (and its empty), that god intentionally allowed 99% of the earth animal special to become extinct (some design that).

"You can attack the misuse of religion all day long but don't attack the religion itself." I don't see the difference, but either way if religion remains an invasive presence in today's society it deserved to be attacked and ridiculed. Those that enable the religion, be they moderate or fanatical, deserve the same treatment.

 

[dullonien]

All well and good Logorrhea. However you've also got to realise that just about every population throughout history has believed and worshiped in something. For the first time we know of, people have stopped believing in any any kind of religion or 'divine being'. This has obviously come about due to scientific discoveries that have helped to explain some of the mysteries of the universe. However, there are still a huge amount of mysteries left unexplained (hell we don't even know what lurks in the deepest depths of our own oceans). The 'Big Bang' is still a theory that's remained largely unproven (although it's accepted that the universe is expanding, and that rate of expansion is slowing), but still unproven non the less.

You have got to understand, that religion is a natural thing for many people. It answers the biggest question there is, 'what is the purpose of life?'. To many, living without a purpse isn't exactly the nicest of thoughts. To others, like you or me, it's fine.

You say it's 'your right' to ridicule others due to their beliefs, but that's just not on imo. You can question their reasons if you wish, but O'Roth has given you his reasons. I'm sure he's well aware of these inconsistencies, but still believes in his religion. I have no problem with that, why do you? It's his life to lead, being a good Christian is just about the best way he can lead his life (as is being a good Jew, Muslim, Athiest etc.). If he then wishes to pass on his beliefs to his children, again what's the problem?

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Oct 22 2009, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I just think that religion was created to nullify the fear of death. It's used as a reason to live. Someone dies, and everybody says that "we will see you soon" and "He is with God now" etc etc. It just strikes me as a certain closure people need. If that makes their lives better, then that's ok.

I don't know what God is, but i know what he is not. He is not what we say he is, because every perception of God, was created by man. Every religion sees God the way they would like him to be. Certain religion's cause people to do good unto others, as their beliefs tell them to. Others kill in the name of God, as their laws and beliefs are different.

What i can say, is that most people are scared of 2 things. One, is the end. Death. Nothingness. The other, as an eternity of endless suffering, screaming and burning. I have a lot of mates who preach to me with a beer in one hand, a cigarette in the other, and then afterwards go home with some skank and bang her.

Another thing i have noticed is at church. Every single session i have ever been to, seems to have one message stated over and over again. Basically, that Jesus died for every sin you will ever commit. We are all sinners, but He gave his life, etc etc. It's as if everyone gets their sigh of relief every week, as they are continually reminded that their sins have been cleansed by Jesus, and all they need to do is believe and ask for forgiveness. It gives people closure, and that's probably exactly what these people need to hear.

I just think that if there is a God, he has long left this world, and we are on our own. But that's just me.[/b]

Best post on the thread. Bit bleak in the end - must be influenced by Afrikaaner "apocalypse now" fears about the coming ANC dictatorship! Or something personal?

People keep banging on about cartoon notions - heaven, hell, big bang, theory of evolution, religion causes wars etc.

It's fairly clear - christianity tries to reconcile reason with faith. Take the fear of death, add a dose of greek philosophy to show that violence is evil, encourage respect for the dead - the people who made us what we are - cherish the young, and take inspiration from the good and true.

Can't live better than that.

 

[Steve-o]

Interesting comment about people believing less in religion nowdays than ever before. IMO This is mainly due the information age and scientific enlightenment. People for centuries have used religion as a spot gap for things they don't understand.

The Greeks are a classic example, they had sea gods and so on. Basically a god for everything in life that's uncontrollable. Nowdays we can predict weather patterns to predict ocean weather systems, where in ancient times it would seem spontaneous. People didn't know about high & low pressure systems and the science behind weather systems, so they'd use a god as a stop gap. It's off their minds, and they'd feel a sense of enlightenment. They now "know" why this & that happens. As you can imagine this would be a huge relief on one's conscious. Please the gods (sacrifice, temples, pray) and feel like you are doing your bit in controlling the uncontrollable.

Zeus in Greek mythology is the 'god of the sky and thunder', on the other side of the world in total isolation, Polynesians cultures had a god of thunder called "Haikili". Coincidence? I think not!

Perhaps these religions, like 1000's of others, didn't gain popularity because they got found out eventually. These types of religions and beliefs were to precise IMO. Christianity and Islam seem to have captured more peoples fascination. Or it hits the right chords of insecurity and vulnerability in the human psyche. Do good and go to a place of euphoria (highest form pleasure) or do bad and go to a place of pain (highest form of torture/discomfort).
It also helps that Middle East and European countries were powerful during certain periods of time. It's no surprise that there are alot of Christians on the western side of Africa and more Islamic followers on the eastern side. Countries like India still have their 'indigenous religions' as their major religions due to being isolated more to some extent. Religion is like a culture you inherit from society and your reference group (family, friends).

I know, very trivial look on religion, but if you can look at it detached and in an abstract way it reveals a very interesting part of human psychology.

EDIT: PS I'm not doing the 'I'm right & you wrong' thing here. I'm just very secure in my view of religion as a culture/human psychology, that's why I can speak about it like a trivial subject.

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Oct 22 2009, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Oct 22 2009, 04:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think your making faith into a much bigger thing than it is, because by definition faith is simply having confidence in something.[/b]

Did you not just talk about "absolute truths" as a result of revealed learning? That sounds like a lot more then just confidence. You are absolutely sure in your beliefs, you've said it quite frequently. There is a massive difference between that and an Athiests acceptance of the more plausable.

And the attacks are not misinformed, certainly not based on personal frustration, and to be honest they aren’t all on Christianity. I suppose rugby still has to have an impact on the Muslim world.

My original post was mainly looking at the spread of Islam (Christian figures are high, but falling in the US) around the world, and due to the fact that its inherently a violent religion, should we begin to look at it as the threat it could offer? Are we walking towards an East (thems be the Muslims) vs. West (that be the Christians) religious confrontation.

You were the one who jumped in with little doozies like “Creationism and Evolution are both theories of how the earth was made, and there is nothing more scientific about Evolutionist Big Bang than there is Creationist...uhm...Creationâ€. and you suggested we just drop it?

I can’t help but think that is simply delusional and it’s hard not to be frustrated by such statements. In fact I’m still not sure if your just winding me up as it sounds like something I would say in the Player of 2009 thread.

One of the pre-requisites for anything to be accepted as a “theory†is that it can be tested. Natural Selection can and has been tested (successfully). The big bang is THE big mystery but they are at least still trying to crack it (CERN). A lot of the science around the creation of the planets, stars etc has already been established, tested and is accepted.

The idea of creationism cannot be tested. In order to test this idea you need to suspend the laws of physics (speed of light and all that nonsense), acknowledge that humans and dinosaurs lived side by side (and forget about carbon dating, and laired sediment as a form of dating, that’s flawed), accept the genealogy back to Adam as set out in the bible, believe the great flood actually happened, accept that the bible is the word of god, acknowledge that all other religions (1000’s of em) have been wrong and so close to 100% of the historic population, and close to ¾ of the current of the earth are doomed to burn in hell, accept that the rest of the universe is just a nice decoration for us to look at (and its empty), that god intentionally allowed 99% of the earth animal special to become extinct (some design that).

“You can attack the misuse of religion all day long but don't attack the religion itself.†I don’t see the difference, but either way if religion remains an invasive presence in today’s society it deserved to be attacked and ridiculed. Those that enable the religion, be they moderate or fanatical, deserve the same treatment.
[/b][/quote]
So many random things to respond to...where to start?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

god intentionally allowed 99% of the earth animal special to become extinct (some design that)[/b]

If we are going on about God, then let's look at our designed role. According to the Abrahamic faiths mankind was created as the gaurdians keepers of earth and all the creation within. Therefore we've done a pretty shite job. We've been given, again, if we're talking as if there is a God, a bounty for resources and it's our job to keep the balance. But, no, we're greedy and selfish and use everything up and waste and destroy. It's now liberals who've taken up the eco-cause, but in reality it should've been all of our responsibility and especially the religious. We've all failed.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Did you not just talk about "absolute truths" as a result of revealed learning?[/b]

No, I just said I believe in absolute truth. Meaning that there are some absolutes in the world/universe. Right, wrong, etc... These absolutes are what turn me to faith in things unproven. Because of absolutes, I know that there is some design to this universe. The universe is not chaos, it's balance.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

One of the pre-requisites for anything to be accepted as a “theory†is that it can be tested. Natural Selection can and has been tested[/b]

I don't question natural selection. I said that the big bang and creation are both theories. I've even referenced scientists that believe in both God and Evolution.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

My original post was mainly looking at the spread of Islam (Christian figures are high, but falling in the US) around the world, and due to the fact that its inherently a violent religion, should we begin to look at it as the threat it could offer? Are we walking towards an East (thems be the Muslims) vs. West (that be the Christians) religious confrontation.[/b]

When you look at my comments I'm trying to make them as inclusive as possible. That meaning I'm making comments about the Abrahamic Faiths in general (most of the time) and not my personal beliefs. The Abrahamic Faiths are Judaism, Christianity and Islam. These three, which share the same fundamental core are the world-wide dominant faiths. The battle between the three is because they are so closely related and all make large absolute statements. I'm not going to get into that whole debate, because the truth about these 3 is they have more in common than they have in difference. Believing in the Flood is not that hard. Whether you believe it to be truly world wide, or at least regionally wide enough to encompass most of the world that had written language (or strong oral histories), every culture points to a flood legend. Something chatostophic happened, and there is physical proof of such a disaster in the regions described in major religions. Did Noah have an Arc with the animals by two-sies, two-sies? I don't know for certain, but I have faith in the Bible to believe it. There is a difference between what I'll comment on absolutely and what I will say is either my personal belief or something I have faith in. All of christianity/islam, judaism isn't just an unprovable myth. There is a lot of reality and truth there from a historical basis at least. It is the supernatural claims where one must leap to faith. I'm not asking you to do it.
Also, I don't have figures, but Christianity is experiencing a huge boom in parts of Asia. Korea for example.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Since the introduction of Catholicism in 1784, followed by the arrival of Protestant missionaries in 1884, Christianity has proceeded to become--after Buddhism--the largest religion in the country. Today about one third of South Korea's 45 million people are Christian--11 million Protestants and 3 million Roman Catholics.
Since the early 1960s, when South Korea's Christians scarcely topped the one million mark, the number of Christians, particularly Protestants, has increased faster than in any other country, doubling every decade. By 1994, moreover, there were over 35,000 churches and 50,000 pastors, making the South Korean church one of the most vital and dynamic in the world.
http://www.tparents.org/Library/Religion/C...hristianity.htm[/b]

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Oct 22 2009, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

You have got to understand, that religion is a natural thing for many people.[/b]

There are actually theories that expand this a little more and say that it could be built into our genes as a possible aid to the survival of the race. I havent a clue, but it doesnt make it right.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Oct 22 2009, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'm sure he's well aware of these inconsistencies, but still believes in his religion. I have no problem with that, why do you?[/b]

I answered this one already. As long as religion, any religion, remains an invasive presence in today’s society it deserved to be attacked and ridiculed. Those that enable the religion, be they moderate or fanatical, deserve the same treatment, okay maybe the shouldnt be ridiculed but that just kinda happens doesnt it.

If they stay in their churches and keep it to themselves thats grand, but if they cry foul and force our politicians to legislate based on their beliefs (gay marraige, blasphemy, stem cell research, divorce, abortion) then it impacts on me. Thats why I have a problem. As long as they question perfectly good science with a campaign of missinformation (10,000 years me arse) and their own brand of pseudoscience then I have a problem. As long as they are given positions of power, abuse that power (and those they are meant to care for) then try to hide it, deny it when caught, and then just ignore that same abuse, then I have a problem.

You seem to believe that religion is some kind of benign social club. Its far more invasive then that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Oct 22 2009, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

It's his life to lead, being a good Christian is just about the best way he can lead his life (as is being a good Jew, Muslim, Athiest etc.). If he then wishes to pass on his beliefs to his children, again what's the problem?[/b]

Kids, these are just children remember, are told today that they can worship God (as their parents, their grandparents, their friends, their parents, their grandparents do (no pressure)) or face an eternity in hell or death. From the moment the child accepts (as if they had a choice) its just a matter of reinforcing the indoctrination from a young age. Those kids themselves dont have a chance or a choice, they just accept it. Why not let the Kid alone until they are 18, and let them make their own mind up? We know why.

The thing I find strange is that I base my arguements on facts, Christians and Muslims base their arguements on the contents of a book written 1000 - 1500 years ago (depending on the book) but I have to take it easy? Why is it taboo to question someones beliefs? Why is it taboo to question religions place in the world?

I dont know you roth but you have always seemed a decent bloke. I'm not questioning that, or your motive with his kids. I'm sure you mean well. I'm questioning your religion and if you find that offense well ....... I'm sorry you find it offensive but I dont believe I'm saying anything that is offensive.

If organised religion stayed out of the mainsteam I'd probably think it was great. It doesnt though.

 

[dullonien]

I can agree with you on many accounts there Logorrhea. Many religions have become 'outdated' in many of their views. Afterall, alot of the Bible was written by normal people, who expressed their views. I'm not attempting to say I know the Bible, I've been taught small parts of it, most of which I've forgotten, but the pieces I'm talking about here are the letters to the corinthian's (I believe) etc. ' A man should not lie with another man the way he does with his wife' etc. etc. Who were these people to write such things, and were they told to do so by God? They do still have a huge impact on the way people can live their lives. Luckily here in Britain, a Gay couple can be 'united' (not married, as that's a religious ceremony), and have the same rights as hetorosexual married couples. However that isn't the case in most other countries, including the majority of the USA (I believe). I've used this issue as an example, there are many more as Logorrhea has pointed out. (Edit: sorry if I've got some of this wrong.)

This is where the laws and legislations of coutries need to evolve, and accept there are many different kinds of religions and non believers living within it's borders.

I feel Blasphemy is a slightly different point you brought up. I find myself using God's name in vain without really realising it. Unfortunately it's become commonplace to do so, it's even allowed on tv before the watershed nowerdays. It's something I wish I didn't do, because I feel I'm being disrespectfull. Although I may not believe in God, I still respect others beliefs. There's no real need to use blasphemy, there are other swear words available to be used, but I find myself doing it anyway.

Back to the children thing again. I understand what you're saying Logorrhea, but at the same time it makes absolutely no sense. People are religious because they believe in that religion, and what it tells them. If they trully believe that they will go to hell (although I'm pretty sure it's just Catholics that really believe in hell) if they don't follow their religion, by not teaching their offspring, they aren't doing everything they can to protect them. Is it really that hard to see that? Didn't the Simpson's have an episode that covered this?

 

[gingergenius]

O Roth, I can't see how you can blame animal extinction on mankind 'doing a shite job' when millions of species became extinct before Man even existed.

Nor can I see how you can even say " Did Noah have an Arc with the animals by two-sies, two-sies? I don't know for certain"... Really, the Bible may have a lot of useful historical evidence, but that is no more believeable than the stories of Gog & Magog, Cuchulain, Odin, Manco Capac, Herakles and just about any other ancient tale of Gods, heroes and monsters. Truly wonderful literature, and believe me I have about 20 books on all sorts of myths and legends and fairytales within reach, but you have to be crazy to believe there was any chance it might have actually happened.

Of course, you could go the William Blake way (a devoutly religious man) and say that God existed, but inside his own imagination, for this was the most powerful force in the universe. He was along the right lines... all deities are constructions of the human imagination, where among 'believers' they can remain as a comfort and a reason for being. Heaven, hell, Asgard and every other mythical world all exist within an infinite universe between our ears.

 

[jacovw]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Oct 22 2009, 08:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Interesting comment about people believing less in religion nowdays than ever before. IMO This is mainly due the information age and scientific enlightenment. People for centuries have used religion as a spot gap for things they don't understand.

The Greeks are a classic example, they had sea gods and so on. Basically a god for everything in life that's uncontrollable. Nowdays we can predict weather patterns to predict ocean weather systems, where in ancient times it would seem spontaneous. People didn't know about high & low pressure systems and the science behind weather systems, so they'd use a god as a stop gap. It's off their minds, and they'd feel a sense of enlightenment. They now "know" why this & that happens. As you can imagine this would be a huge relief on one's conscious. Please the gods (sacrifice, temples, pray) and feel like you are doing your bit in controlling the uncontrollable.

Zeus in Greek mythology is the 'god of the sky and thunder', on the other side of the world in total isolation, Polynesians cultures had a god of thunder called "Haikili". Coincidence? I think not!

Perhaps these religions, like 1000's of others, didn't gain popularity because they got found out eventually. These types of religions and beliefs were to precise IMO. Christianity and Islam seem to have captured more peoples fascination. Or it hits the right chords of insecurity and vulnerability in the human psyche. Do good and go to a place of euphoria (highest form pleasure) or do bad and go to a place of pain (highest form of torture/discomfort).
It also helps that Middle East and European countries were powerful during certain periods of time. It's no surprise that there are alot of Christians on the western side of Africa and more Islamic followers on the eastern side. Countries like India still have their 'indigenous religions' as their major religions due to being isolated more to some extent. Religion is like a culture you inherit from society and your reference group (family, friends).

I know, very trivial look on religion, but if you can look at it detached and in an abstract way it reveals a very interesting part of human psychology.

EDIT: PS I'm not doing the 'I'm right & you wrong' thing here. I'm just very secure in my view of religion as a culture/human psychology, that's why I can speak about it like a trivial subject.[/b]

Okay Stop the Bus Boys!
I agree with one thing: it's our modern scientific world view that's stopping the spread of Christianity! But if our Modern Scientific way of thinking was so great then let's compare the Christian Age of Science to the Modern Age of Science. When the West was predominately Christian (in their world view) we had the inventions of cars, light bulbs, electricity, and a endless list of things that shaped and affect our lives today. Since the West's predominately Atheist world view we've had the inventions of discussion threads on which is better!

P.S. if I'm wrong about all this Christianity stuff, then I've lived a happy life with a good wife and have brought up my children in a decent self/others respecting way and still have nothing to fear when i die! If I'm right, all the above is still true for me, but for those who don't agree, you might have some trouble... just something to ponder, you know use it, don't use it...

 

[jacovw]

I just want to say something about the children:

In the Church where I became a Christian, most of the children dance and worship and "try" (trust me they don't always get it right) to be good, and pray and sometimes even tell their parents "mom, dad what you're doing is hurting Jesus heart!" (it's very sweet to see by the way), all this long before they are even taught that there is a hell!!

I can Vouch that these children turn to a loving God because they see his love in their Parents lives and when they find out about Hell it breaks their hearts, as it does God's. Guys God is Love and he doesn't throw people in Hell they choose it, if all you ever ask for here on Earth is for God to leave you alone he will eventually do that! Now if He is truly God then let's not be arrogant and think he owes us a mile long explanation, he owes us nothing but we owe him our lives because the punishment for sin is death and i can tell you now he has given me a million pardons for the death sentence already.

It's not just the catholics, any true Christian knows that there is a choice between unlimited access to God's presence forever or No Access at all, that is Hell the complete removal of all that is good... no demons torturing you and no devil reigning supreme they get what you get in there, a place void of God...

That's a little worse than the bottom of a 5th Team Ruck I'll have you know!

 

[Bull]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jacovw @ Oct 23 2009, 04:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

P.S. if I'm wrong about all this Christianity stuff, then I've lived a happy life with a good wife and have brought up my children in a decent self/others respecting way and still have nothing to fear when i die! If I'm right, all the above is still true for me, but for those who don't agree, you might have some trouble... just something to ponder, you know use it, don't use it...[/b]

I've heard a very good saying before; 

I'd Rather live my life as if there's God, and die to find out there isn't, than to live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.

 

[Jer1cho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bull @ Oct 23 2009, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'd Rather live my life as if there's God, and die to find out there isn't, than to live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.[/b]

See, now this is exactly the point i am getting at. It's fear that drives more than half of this world to believe in whatever they do. Not, because they are striving to live eternity in a Utopia, or Heaven, but rather because they don't want to be stuck in Hell for all of eternity.

I just don't know. I honestly don't. Maybe I'm just not strong enough to use something like 'faith' to force myself into believing something that i just can't.

I keep asking myself, how was God 'just there'? He was just there, from the beginning. If that's the case, then why can't everything that exists 'just be there'? If every single thing in existence needed something in order for it to be created, how does that rule not apply to God? Because he is 'all-mighty and glorious' is usually the response i get. Even the whole Noah's ark thing. I also ask, how was that even possible? Then everyone says, God was all-mighty. Seems a little on the ******** side to me.

I was brought up in a home, where both of my parents said that you can go through life, and make the decision on your own. They would not force anything on me, and would let me decide on my own what i would like to believe. I have tried. I really have. When i am at church, everyone has there hands in the air, worshipping in song, and all i can think is, what am i missing? My fiance is very religious, and wants me to be baptized before we get married. I don't want to do it, because it's not my decision. All it has ever done in our relationships is cause arguments. I don't like religion.

@ Shtove:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Best post on the thread. Bit bleak in the end - must be influenced by Afrikaaner "apocalypse now" fears about the coming ANC dictatorship! Or something personal?[/b]

Nah, it's not that. It's just that, every single day i sit in my car, in the traffic, with all the other thousands of people. We go to work, we waste our day, get home, eat and sleep. We get paid, pay our taxes, buy our cars, and get stuck in a never-ending cycle. If we were put on this Earth for a purpose, then it's not what is happening. I don't think we were ever intended to be living our lives the way we are. It just seems so pointless.

Also, i have seen many, many horrible things in my life. Here in South Africa, the horrible crime stories never end. I was reading about a family who were moving to Australia, but had to stay here for a couple more weeks to get their visa's and things in order. Some guys broke into their house, burnt their faces with irons, and raped the woman in front of her husband and kids. They didn't steal a thing.

Why did that have to happen? Why were those people even born if 'God creates everybody'? It just seems to me that we are on our own. I know that there are wonderful things in this world as well, and it's not all gloom and doom, but i can't help but feel that humanity is sinking deeper and deeper into it's own mess.