The 2014/15 pre-season general news/discussion thread

[goodNumber10]

It's deeply disingenuous and disrespectful to the people who do care.

I really disagree with this...

If you/that person chooses to take an opportunity and represent that country to the fullest of your ability then i don't see why it's an issue. I have an issue with people changing allegiance after they have committed but i don't think say a NZ player who's qualified on residency should feel obligated to turn an England opportunity down just because they are a New Zealander.

 

[ratsapprentice]

If they would prefer to have represented NZ and England was a second choice then they should.

If you represent a country wishing you could actually play for another that makes you a spineless **** IMO.

 

[goodNumber10]

well you're moving the goalposts a little here, adding in caveats to suit your point.

Personally if someone commits fully and gives their all i don't care.

 

[ratsapprentice]

well you're moving the goalposts a little here to suit your point. Adding in caveats.

Where, exactly?

 

[Thingimubob]

If they would prefer to have represented NZ and England was a second choice then they should.

If you represent a country wishing you could actually play for another that makes you a spineless **** IMO.

What about all those players representing the tier 2 or lower nations? Do they count as spineless too, despite the fact that a lot of them push the quality of world rugby up by being there?

 

[goodNumber10]

with this: "If you represent a country wishing you could actually play for another".

It's difficult to see how someone, who's national identity is not English wouldn't want to play for their home country if all things were equal. But the point is it's more about sportsmen playing to their full potential at the highest level. I don't think it makes them spineless - the complete opposite actually.

Personally, i really don't have an issue with people following that path if they are qualified to play for that country - either on residency or lineage, but i do/would have an issue with people then changing their allegiance once they have committed.

As we've touched on National identity is a complex issue, couple with the drive of an elite athlete and it's a complex and difficult question entirely dependent on the individual

What about all those players representing the tier 2 or lower nations? Do they count as spineless too, despite the fact that a lot of them push the quality of world rugby up by being there?

really good point.

I'm in no way trying to compare myself here, but I played touch rugby for the country I lived in. I'm English, everything about me is English. Would I have rather played for England, absolutely! but the opportunity wasn't and would never have been there for me.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You still haven't shown where I've "changed the goal posts" - there is no dissonance between my two previous posts.

What about all those players representing the tier 2 or lower nations? Do they count as spineless too, despite the fact that a lot of them push the quality of world rugby up by being there?

Yes, if they would prefer to be playing for a different country. I can't abide by disingenuous behavior - I don't like liars... it's a disgusting character trait.


There are a lot of people who have unconventional national identities.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that for someone like Mo Botha playing for England is at least as high an honour as representing SA - it might not be, but there is clearly legitimate motivation for representation.
And short of making him take a lie detector test you just have to take his word for it.
As opposed to someone like Michael Patterson who is clearly just trying to advance his own career (which is fine at club level).

The same goes for players playing at all levels.

 

[goodNumber10]

You still haven't shown where I've "changed the goal posts" - there is no dissonance between my two previous posts.

Maybe not Dissonance, but you certainly are expanding the conditions - at least that's how it appears to me. We've gone from representing a different country to representing and wishing you still played for the other country.

Yes, if they would prefer to be playing for a different country. I can't abide by disingenuous behavior - I don't like liars... it's a disgusting character trait.


There are a lot of people who have unconventional national identities.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that for someone like Mo Botha playing for England is at least as high an honour as representing SA - it might not be, but there is clearly legitimate motivation for representation.
And short of making him take a lie detector test you just have to take his word for it.
As opposed to someone like Michael Patterson who is clearly just trying to advance his own career (which is fine at club level).

The same goes for players playing at all levels.

Why is it disingenuous to take an opportunity afforded to you to play the best standard you can?

Regardless i don't see how you can be ok with one and not with the other, essentially you're saying it's ok as long as they don't say they would have loved to have played for XXXX?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Why is it disingenuous to take an opportunity afforded to you to play the best standard you can?

Regardless i don't see how you can be ok with one and not with the other, essentially you're saying it's ok as long as they don't say they would have loved to have played for XXXX?

On all points:

The entire premise of international rugby is to represent your nation.

My explanations have clearly not helped you understand so I'll leave it at that.

 

[goodNumber10]

On all points:

The entire premise of international rugby is to represent your nation.

Yes, but "your nation" can mean any number of things.

As you've touched on a number of times elsewhere national identity is a complex issue and in this day and age a very temporary concept, people can feel an affinity to any number of nations - that doesn't make them disingenuous for taking up a chance with one that's not of their birth/heritage.

My explanations have clearly not helped you understand so I'll leave it at that.

no need to be belittling about it rats, we have a different opinion that's all.

I understand your point perfectly I just don't agree with you that it's a valid one.

 

[Big Ewis]

ahahah, wtfff is goin' on HERE ?! "Pre-season general discussion", ay ? nice.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yes, but "your nation" can mean any number of things.

As you've touched on a number of times elsewhere national identity is a complex issue and in this day and age a very temporary concept, people can feel an affinity to any number of nations - that doesn't make them disingenuous for taking up a chance with one that's not of their birth/heritage.

The issue is with players playing for nations they clearly have no affinity to.

Bundee Aki probably being the most blatant recent example. (the blame here lies just as much with Unions being complicit in it)

I'm not being intentionally belittling - it's just that there are only so many ways to say the same thing.
I've run out of ways to articulate the point. And I don't accept it's something subjective - the role of international rugby is not to be a vehicle for absolutely anyone.

 

[big ginger 8]

As far as I'm aware Bundee Aki is the only one talking about him playing for Ireland. Connacht unlike the other provinces doesn't have the same structures with foreign players including project players. At the moment he's simply another foreign signing who isn't tied down to a country like Nathan White.

I do agree that his attitude however of siimply disregarding countries until one picks him is disgraceful.

 

[goodNumber10]

The issue is with players playing for nations they clearly have no affinity to.

Bundee Aki probably being the most blatant recent example. (the blame here lies just as much with Unions being complicit in it)

I'm not being intentionally belittling - it's just that there are only so many ways to say the same thing.
I've run out of ways to articulate the point. And I don't accept it's something subjective - the role of international rugby is not to be a vehicle for absolutely anyone.

No one is saying it should be, but with Aki you're using a very specific example there to debunk the whole concept, I suppose you can argue project players are different and i'd probably agree with you there.

But I don't think someone like Fluety for example is even in the same equation - i don't think for a minute he wouldn't have taken an all black cap if the opportunity had arisen, and he considers himself a new Zealander and would rather have played for them. But he served out his time, took a UK passport and did his bit for England and the Lions, does that make him a liar or spineless because he took the opportunity he was given?

I don't see what's so bad with that. I don't think it belittles the international game.

 

[ratsapprentice]

But I don't think someone like Fluety for example is even in the same equation - i don't think for a minute he wouldn't have taken an all black cap if the opportunity had arisen, and he considers himself a new Zealander and would rather have played for them. But he served out his time, took a UK passport and did his bit for England and the Lions, does that make him a liar or spineless because he took the opportunity he was given?

Yes.

 

[goodNumber10]

then we have to agree to disagree mate.

 

[Maverick1987]

Really?

I think most people change allegiance because they want to play the very best standard they can, not because they feel an affinity with the new country, that's always been the way with driven people - they want to perform to the best of their abilities even if that means jumping ship to another country because their path is blocked.

I don't' think, for the majority of sportspeople, patriotism comes into it - i mean yes, obviously they are passionate for their country but i think most people if given the chance to play for a major nation will take it.

Would you rather play regularly for the AB's or England/Scotland/Wales? I know who i'd rather play for.

As a person who had the opportunity to represent wales at pool I decided against it because for me playing for a nation was about playing for MY nation . I've currently moved into a different league and am in contention for selection to Hereford county pool team so I can tell you first hand for me it's about playing for my country NOT any country

To be fair the players that do what we are talking about are few and far between in tier 1 rugby . I don't class Faletau, Tuilagi or the Vunipolas in this bracket as they have lived in the respective countries since they were kids

 

[munstermuffin]

As far as I'm aware Bundee Aki is the only one talking about him playing for Ireland. Connacht unlike the other provinces doesn't have the same structures with foreign players including project players. At the moment he's simply another foreign signing who isn't tied down to a country like Nathan White.

I do agree that his attitude however of siimply disregarding countries until one picks him is disgraceful.

Have to agree with this. Aki was signed by Connacht not by IRFU in hope he'd eventually play for Ireland. Even others like CJ are signed by provinces and simply if they're available they'll be selected. Like if it was for national team 1st we'd all have TH props or scrum half

 

[ratsapprentice]

No-one has said otherwise... it's him who I'm calling a dick for exploiting the situation.

Although the IRFU will be equally culpable should they pick him.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Jacob Umaga (Son of Samoan capped Mike, Nephew to Tana and related to Jerry Collins) is currently in the Leicester Academy and rated very highly apparently a monster tackler + runner with great hands and a fine pass, but I think he was born he was born in England, and has lived here all his life so there would be zero controversy if he was picked to play for England.

TBH don't know why I mentioned this, but would be interesting to see a Umaga in a English shirt.

Imagine in 4 years time a Leicester/English partnership of.

12 - Umaga
13 - Tuilagi