Statement on Behalf of the Four Welsh Regions from RRW

[Rich Taff]

Think we can see the difference here between 'Unions' and 'Businesses'.
The regions are trying to develop a financially viable 'business', whilst the Union are stuck in the stone ages, expecting everything for nothing.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Stuck in the stone age being a vastly more effective business than the "Businesses"?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Think we can see the difference here between 'Unions' and 'Businesses'.
The regions are trying to develop a financially viable 'business', whilst the Union are stuck in the stone ages, expecting everything for nothing.

Can you elaborate on this? The Irish situation probably most comparable to the Welsh (player base, no. of teams, etc. albeit with certain advantages.) And we're fine, at least, as well as we could be considering the money the French clubs have.

 

[Draggs]

Can you elaborate on this? The Irish situation probably most comparable to the Welsh (player base, no. of teams, etc. albeit with certain advantages.) And we're fine, at least, as well as we could be considering the money the French clubs have.

Nothing like each other at all. IRFU are bankrolling the clubs to a much higher extent than the welsh clubs. RRW are asking for pennies.

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

 

[munstermuffin]

Nothing like each other at all. IRFU are bankrolling the clubs to a much higher extent than the welsh clubs. RRW are asking for pennies.

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

Been honest each respective branch earns their money. We really do excellent promoting. I'd disagree with your views. The marketing of Welsh regions themselves is lazy and as much as they blame WRU they're as bad

 

[ratsapprentice]

If the WRU is expected to fund the regions so heavily - why would they not simply own them in the first place.

Silly situation.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Nothing like each other at all. IRFU are bankrolling the clubs to a much higher extent than the welsh clubs. RRW are asking for pennies.

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

I meant in terms of their being 4 sides feeding into the national side, comparable playing numbers, etc. I wont dispute that the Welsh setup is far more farcical than ours.

EDIT: Read the blog. It's a shame it didn't give any sources, so you kind of have to take his word for the numbers he pulls out. To be frank, I don't trust his interpretation of the numbers. I think he's underestimating the fact that the provinces aren't just professional sides, but rather are accountable for pretty much all rugby within their borders. This means running all juvenile competitions, etc. I can't see the numbers breaking down so tidily and as transparently as he makes out.

Of course, the central point is that the RRW cannot complain about the WRU not giving them a comparable amount of funding as the IRFU give the provinces. The provinces are part of the IRFU, the regions are separate bodies.

Tbh, I wouldn't mind seeing the regions or the WRU fail. Welsh rugby needs a massive structural overhaul on the professional level. I don't know what it'd look like coming out the other side, but the current system is untenable. I naturally side with the WRU because of how well our system has done (with certain advantages in terms of naturally formed teams) and the fact that the regions have been right pricks about the league for years now, trying to jump into bed with PRL at any opportunity and undermining the whole competition.

 

[Peat]

Leaving aside the exact workings of the symbiotic relationship between the IRFU and the branches it's pretty clear that the Welsh regions are not receiving the funding the Irish provinces do. Expecting them to compete in that sense is nuts. The Welsh regions have asked for more money to help bridge the gap and been told no.

Frankly, I feel that the Welsh regions have right on their side here. The WRU seem to be set on aggressively using their clout to bring the regions into line. They would rather make independent regions untenable than work with. The regions flirtation with the English clubs is very understandable as their sole line of survival at that time, even if it was always blatantly never happening.

I also feel that the WRU has might on its side and possibly a legitimate set of grievances over the regions' failure to promote the game and their own business. The latter is immaterial though, it's the might that matters. The regions can wave around player access like a tattered rag in the wind all they like but it's a far less powerful bargaining chip than funding. Without full player access for a few years, the WRU's life will be uncomfortabe. Without funding, I don't see how the regions can expect to run viable and competitive clubs.

I believe I've said this before - I hope the WRU gains full power over the regions and soon, not because I think that's definitely the best thing to happen, but because it's the quickest way to bring peace and relative unity back to Welsh rugby. It needs it quick.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Leaving aside the exact workings of the symbiotic relationship between the IRFU and the branches it's pretty clear that the Welsh regions are not receiving the funding the Irish provinces do. Expecting them to compete in that sense is nuts. The Welsh regions have asked for more money to help bridge the gap and been told no.

Frankly, I feel that the Welsh regions have right on their side here. The WRU seem to be set on aggressively using their clout to bring the regions into line. They would rather make independent regions untenable than work with. The regions flirtation with the English clubs is very understandable as their sole line of survival at that time, even if it was always blatantly never happening.

I also feel that the WRU has might on its side and possibly a legitimate set of grievances over the regions' failure to promote the game and their own business. The latter is immaterial though, it's the might that matters. The regions can wave around player access like a tattered rag in the wind all they like but it's a far less powerful bargaining chip than funding. Without full player access for a few years, the WRU's life will be uncomfortabe. Without funding, I don't see how the regions can expect to run viable and competitive clubs.

I believe I've said this before - I hope the WRU gains full power over the regions and soon, not because I think that's definitely the best thing to happen, but because it's the quickest way to bring peace and relative unity back to Welsh rugby. It needs it quick.

Yeah, lots of sensible stuff here. To be honest, I don't really care what kind of arrangement they come to. I just want 3 or 4 Welsh side that can compete in the Pro 12, which is something we don't have at the moment. And both parties have to share responsibility for that.

 

[lynam1104]

Yeah, lots of sensible stuff here. To be honest, I don't really care what kind of arrangement they come to. I just want 3 or 4 Welsh side that can compete in the Pro 12, which is something we don't have at the moment. And both parties have to share responsibility for that.

This is exactly my view, personally I feel the Pro12 has been dragged through the mud unfairly through all of this upheaval and it seems to have come out stronger with Sky and Guinness with the only thing holding it back being the Welsh teams quality.

 

[smartcooky]

Think we can see the difference here between 'Unions' and 'Businesses'.
The regions are trying to develop a financially viable 'business', whilst the Union are stuck in the stone ages, expecting everything for nothing.

Stuck in the stone age being a vastly more effective business than the "Businesses"?

rats nails it. Its no good being a business if, a: you don't have a market for your product, and b: no-one wants your product anyway.

I honestly can't see the four regions surviving without the WRU. The whole Regions experiment looks like a dismal failure to me. I can see the WRU possibly putting the four top Welsh premiership sides into the Pro12, and pretty much shutting out any player who plays for any Regional team in another competition from representing Wales. This will admittedly weaken Wales and Welsh participation in the Pro12 in the short term, but in the long term (five to ten years) it will put the whole game in Wales back on its feet as players return to play for their Welsh Clubs or for other clubs in Europe.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Think we can see the difference here between 'Unions' and 'Businesses'.
The regions are trying to develop a financially viable 'business', whilst the Union are stuck in the stone ages, expecting everything for nothing.

The thing is, sports clubs aren't really businesses. A business' main aim is to turn a profit. A sports club's main aim is to produce on the field. A profit is nice, but it's not the main objectives. The most successful sports sides usually aren't the most successful business models by any stretch.

 

[smartcooky]

The thing is, sports clubs aren't really businesses. A business' main aim is to turn a profit. A sports club's main aim is to produce on the field. A profit is nice, but it's not the main objectives. The most successful sports sides usually aren't the most successful business models by any stretch.

Yep.

With all the millions of £ in the English game, how many of the Aviva Premiership Businesses run in the black?

How many would still be in the black without money from the RFU?

I have read somewhere that generally the most financially successful clubs in the AP are the ones who own their own home stadium.

Is this true?

If so, I would like to see some supporting figures; which of the 12 clubs own their own home stadium.

Do any of the Welsh Regions own their own home stadium?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Yep.

With all the millions of £ in the English game, how many of the Aviva Premiership Businesses run in the black?

How many would still be in the black without money from the RFU?

I have read somewhere that generally the most financially successful clubs in the AP are the ones who own their own home stadium.

Is this true?

If so, I would like to see some supporting figures; which of the 12 clubs own their own home stadium.

Do any of the Welsh Regions own their own home stadium?

Eh, It's kind of hard to determine cause and effect there though. Are they successful because they own their own stadium or do they own their own stadium because they're successful and have been put in a position where they can buy it? We don't own the RDS yet we do pretty well on the field and commercially.

 

[profitius]

The thing is, sports clubs aren't really businesses. A business' main aim is to turn a profit. A sports club's main aim is to produce on the field. A profit is nice, but it's not the main objectives. The most successful sports sides usually aren't the most successful business models by any stretch.

Indeed. Look at the soccer teams. Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich etc are not privately owned and everything they do is for the good of the clubs. They've been the 3 top sides in Europe of the past few years. Man Utd got taken over by greedy businessmen who borrowed massive amounts of money to buy Man Utd and have used the club to pay back their debt.


The business people in charge of the regions have spent a fortune in trying to get the regions up and running. Its been a massive failure. Tough luck, they made a bad investment. It seemed like the regions were rushed in every sense and not thought through properly.


Welsh fans are always quick to blame the pro 12 for everything too.

 

[Thingimubob]

Yep.

With all the millions of £ in the English game, how many of the Aviva Premiership Businesses run in the black?

How many would still be in the black without money from the RFU?

I have read somewhere that generally the most financially successful clubs in the AP are the ones who own their own home stadium.

Is this true?

If so, I would like to see some supporting figures; which of the 12 clubs own their own home stadium.

Do any of the Welsh Regions own their own home stadium?

Technically none do as one of the "Regions" I think, but to all intents and purposes they pretty much run them/play a big part as operators. Not ever heard of any problems with them playing at their respective grounds anyway.

Cardiff Arms Park is owned by Cardiff Athletics Club, but has pretty much always been home to Cardiff RFC and the Blues.

The Liberty Stadium is owned by Swansea City Council and was built as a home ground for Swansea City and the Ospreys, so more or less is their own stadium.

Parc y Scarlets is owned by Camarthenshire County Council and again was built as a home ground for the Scarlets and Llanelli RFC.

Rodney Parade is owned and operated by Rodney Parade Limited, which is owned fully by Newport RFC.

Not sure if Newport RFC and Llanelli RFC count as separate entities from their regions like Cardiff Athletics Club is. Either way all 3 of the 4 regions are the principal sports team at their ground, though Newport County FC rent Rodney Parade too. Id imagine the Ospreys are on equal footing as Swansea City, even if they don't pull in the same crowds/money.

 

[Feicarsinn]

How would you like to see the current situation resolved thingimubob?

 

[Thingimubob]

How would you like to see the current situation resolved thingimubob?

Honestly it's gotten to the point where I'm fed up with the entire bunch of childish pricks, especially since the Pro 12 and the rest of European Rugby is definitely on the up! It's definitely frustrating as the European Rugby deal, the Sky deal, the Guinness deal and the BT Sport deal with the Welsh regions was making it look promising for the coming season...

A big worry for me is if the Regions do decide to bugger off, could the fear of facing the AI's without any regional players come true? Admittedly we could probably field the majority of our first choice backline (Only Cuthbert and Biggar would be missing I think?) and a few of the forwards, but there'd be no bench to speak of, let alone a wider squad...

For me central contracts could be a big help, but ONLY IF the WRU ups funding to the regions as well. This has been a big gripe of the Regions as they believe central contracts will lead to less WRU funding. Is there the money to do it? I'm assuming so with all the deals, plus the WRU have already tried pushing it through so there must be some funds set aside
Their failure to do so does make me wonder what would the players do if the split does happen? Many players, in particular the Ospreys Welsh squad members, turned down the WRU contracts in favour of new one's with their Regions. Will they remain loyal to their clubs, or will they jump ship if they get barred from the national side?

This has the potential to ruin the 2014/2015 season for Wales, which in turn would be disastrous for our 2015 RWC campaign...

 

[Draggs]

Honestly it's gotten to the point where I'm fed up with the entire bunch of childish pricks, especially since the Pro 12 and the rest of European Rugby is definitely on the up! It's definitely frustrating as the European Rugby deal, the Sky deal, the Guinness deal and the BT Sport deal with the Welsh regions was making it look promising for the coming season...

A big worry for me is if the Regions do decide to bugger off, could the fear of facing the AI's without any regional players come true? Admittedly we could probably field the majority of our first choice backline (Only Cuthbert and Biggar would be missing I think?) and a few of the forwards, but there'd be no bench to speak of, let alone a wider squad...

For me central contracts could be a big help, but ONLY IF the WRU ups funding to the regions as well. This has been a big gripe of the Regions as they believe central contracts will lead to less WRU funding. Is there the money to do it? I'm assuming so with all the deals, plus the WRU have already tried pushing it through so there must be some funds set aside
Their failure to do so does make me wonder what would the players do if the split does happen? Many players, in particular the Ospreys Welsh squad members, turned down the WRU contracts in favour of new one's with their Regions. Will they remain loyal to their clubs, or will they jump ship if they get barred from the national side?

This has the potential to ruin the 2014/2015 season for Wales, which in turn would be disastrous for our 2015 RWC campaign...

2015 is already ****ed thanks to Roger and his fourth AI.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Honestly it's gotten to the point where I'm fed up with the entire bunch of childish pricks, especially since the Pro 12 and the rest of European Rugby is definitely on the up! It's definitely frustrating as the European Rugby deal, the Sky deal, the Guinness deal and the BT Sport deal with the Welsh regions was making it look promising for the coming season...

A big worry for me is if the Regions do decide to bugger off, could the fear of facing the AI's without any regional players come true? Admittedly we could probably field the majority of our first choice backline (Only Cuthbert and Biggar would be missing I think?) and a few of the forwards, but there'd be no bench to speak of, let alone a wider squad...

For me central contracts could be a big help, but ONLY IF the WRU ups funding to the regions as well. This has been a big gripe of the Regions as they believe central contracts will lead to less WRU funding. Is there the money to do it? I'm assuming so with all the deals, plus the WRU have already tried pushing it through so there must be some funds set aside
Their failure to do so does make me wonder what would the players do if the split does happen? Many players, in particular the Ospreys Welsh squad members, turned down the WRU contracts in favour of new one's with their Regions. Will they remain loyal to their clubs, or will they jump ship if they get barred from the national side?

This has the potential to ruin the 2014/2015 season for Wales, which in turn would be disastrous for our 2015 RWC campaign...

Eh? How could this happen? The regions are obliged to release their internationals during the windows.