Springboks or Proteas? Would a name change have made a big difference?

[Da Grappla]

I can see definitely more black players today than just two world cups ago. Well...what the hell. Habana and Pietersen weren't even black.

Could white flight have something to do with it in addition?

I really don't get the "diversity" obsession some people have. If you are the best for the place, you got it. Either with 15 bushmen on the pitch or 15 über afrikaner with dutch only surnames.

Of course is just nice and good that the fan base is broadening. More support, more investment, more rugby.

More rugby>everything else

 

[BakkiesBokke]

First of all the movement of young South African players to other countries is not limited to white people, so I think you are wrong to call it "white flight". Secondly I am astonished you don't get the diversity thing! Do you not think it is better for ALL South Africans to have a stake in their cricket, rugby and soccer teams? I don't mean that you need a black person in the team just to get a black person to support the team, what I mean is we want to feel that our national teams represent us. We need to be doing everything to widen the appeal of cricket, rugby and football beyond their historical, racial followings. This is good for those teams (more competition for places), good for the country (faster nation building and cohesion), and ultimately good for humanity.

Also - why do you refer to black people as "bushmen"? It is offensive and also inaccurate! For starters, the black people you are referring to are not Khoi or San in origin (bushmen in the original sense of the term), but Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho etc.

I welcome the fact that when I got to rugby games now in SA, I sit next to South Africans of all backgrounds. There are role models from all communities in the teams now. This is a massive improvement on 15 years ago and I hope it continues.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I can see definitely more black players today than just two world cups ago. Well...what the hell. Habana and Pietersen weren't even black.

Could white flight have something to do with it in addition?

I really don't get the "diversity" obsession some people have. If you are the best for the place, you got it. Either with 15 bushmen on the pitch or 15 über afrikaner with dutch only surnames.

Of course is just nice and good that the fan base is broadening. More support, more investment, more rugby.

More rugby>everything else

Be careful what you say, because you are coming off extremely offensive.

And WTF is White Flight?? Do you mean this in a rugby sense?? Because then you are just ignorant. Let's use the 2 names you named here, both Habana and Pietersen aren't playing in South Africa at this very moment. Then you also have Chilliboy Ralapele, Brian Mujati, Ashley Johnson that are playing abroad.

First of all the movement of young South African players to other countries is not limited to white people, so I think you are wrong to call it "white flight". Secondly I am astonished you don't get the diversity thing! Do you not think it is better for ALL South Africans to have a stake in their cricket, rugby and soccer teams? I don't mean that you need a black person in the team just to get a black person to support the team, what I mean is we want to feel that our national teams represent us. We need to be doing everything to widen the appeal of cricket, rugby and football beyond their historical, racial followings. This is good for those teams (more competition for places), good for the country (faster nation building and cohesion), and ultimately good for humanity.

Also - why do you refer to black people as "bushmen"? It is offensive and also inaccurate! For starters, the black people you are referring to are not Khoi or San in origin (bushmen in the original sense of the term), but Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho etc.

I welcome the fact that when I got to rugby games now in SA, I sit next to South Africans of all backgrounds. There are role models from all communities in the teams now. This is a massive improvement on 15 years ago and I hope it continues.

This!

Anyone who has had the privilege like me to have watched the game at Soccer City along with 90 000+ South Africans will agree with your sentiment...

 

[RugbyUnion]

I can see definitely more black players today than just two world cups ago. Well...what the hell. Habana and Pietersen weren't even black.

Could white flight have something to do with it in addition?

I really don't get the "diversity" obsession some people have. If you are the best for the place, you got it. Either with 15 bushmen on the pitch or 15 über afrikaner with dutch only surnames.

Of course is just nice and good that the fan base is broadening. More support, more investment, more rugby.

More rugby>everything else

Yikes!

 

[RugbyUnion]

Anyone who has had the privilege like me to have watched the game at Soccer City along with 90 000+ South Africans will agree with your sentiment...

Are you referring to that day in Soweto FNB stadium where a ticket got you in to see back to back Bafana and Springbok matches? I heard about that as was in SA at the time in the middle of one of your national parks. Would love to have made an International but could only fit in a Bulls CC match! Can't wait to revisit.

 

[Da Grappla]

Stop there the politically correct thinking. I didn't care about ever and I will never care. If I offend you, check out your mind before mine. The problem might be closer to you than is to me.

What I just meant about white flight is every south african I've met, is white. White as snow. Whiter than me haha. So there is a white flight. Not as heavy as was with zimbabweans of course. Are they right or wrong about leaving to Australia, Netherlands or UK? I just don't know. They are the ones who should know, not me. I'm not a judge.

No, I don't get the diversity obsession. I'm 1/4 sephardic jewish (my mother's mother) of moroccan origin and 1/16 black (it was obvious by looking my father's father he was not white at all) so I don't think the diversity is anything to embrace like something important to achieve.

Why is it either good or bad? I wouldn't have a problem being an american citizen and feeling represented by an all black basketball team. Would you have any problem?

P.S: I dindn't know about bushmen to be a derogatory name. In Spain they are called "bosquimanos" and is not peyorative. So Koi or Shan...nicer names, better than bushmen.

 

[BakkiesBokke]

Stop there the politically correct thinking. I didn't care about ever and I will never care. If I offend you, check out your mind before mine. The problem might be closer to you than is to me.

What I just meant about white flight is every south african I've met, is white. White as snow. Whiter than me haha. So there is a white flight. Not as heavy as was with zimbabweans of course. Are they right or wrong about leaving to Australia, Netherlands or UK? I just don't know. They are the ones who should know, not me. I'm not a judge.

No, I don't get the diversity obsession. I'm 1/4 sephardic jewish (my mother's mother) of moroccan origin and 1/16 black (it was obvious by looking my father's father he was not white at all) so I don't think the diversity is anything to embrace like something important to achieve.

Why is it either good or bad? I wouldn't have a problem being an american citizen and feeling represented by an all black basketball team. Would you have any problem?

P.S: I dindn't know about bushmen to be a derogatory name. In Spain they are called "bosquimanos" and is not peyorative. So Koi or Shan...nicer names, better than bushmen.

Ok so you are now talking about white South Africans in general, not just rugby players. I should point out that the white population of South Africa grew between 2001 and 2011 by 6.8% - significantly above the birth rate minus the death rate. Why is this? According to Adcorp as well as the Homecoming Revolution expats have been returning to South Africa since 2005 at a significant rate. Since 2008, 369,000 have returned.

It is wrong to describe Xhosas, Zulus, Sothos etc as Bushmen because they ARE NOT!! You were inaccurate to use that term, and by using it to describe black South Africans in that context it might appear derogatory.

Anyway this has nothing to do with rugby!

The reason it is important to expand the game to ALL South Africans (as has been happening), is because the Springboks are OUR team! Not MY team as someone of Afrikaans heritage, but MY team as a South African. The power of sport to unite us is phenomenal. Madiba is testament to that! I think South Africa is a better place when I go to the beach and see children of different colours chucking a rugby ball around, kicking a football, or playing beach cricket. It used to be that you would see Afrikaans kids with the rugby game, black children playing football, and English-speaking South Africans cricket. There is a long way to go, but I am glad that grassroots sport has experienced SOME transformation. Let's have more!

 

[Da Grappla]

Ok so you are now talking about white South Africans in general, not just rugby players. I should point out that the white population of South Africa grew between 2001 and 2011 by 6.8% - significantly above the birth rate minus the death rate. Why is this? According to Adcorp as well as the Homecoming Revolution expats have been returning to South Africa since 2005 at a significant rate. Since 2008, 369,000 have returned.

Those are really good news. Glad to read it.

It is wrong to describe Xhosas, Zulus, Sothos etc as Bushmen because they ARE NOT!! You were inaccurate to use that term, and by using it to describe black South Africans in that context it might appear derogatory.

I didn't describe them as bushmen.

Anyway this has nothing to do with rugby!

Yeah, let's skip this part

The reason it is important to expand the game to ALL South Africans (as has been happening), is because the Springboks are OUR team! Not MY team as someone of Afrikaans heritage, but MY team as a South African. The power of sport to unite us is phenomenal. Madiba is testament to that! I think South Africa is a better place when I go to the beach and see children of different colours chucking a rugby ball around, kicking a football, or playing beach cricket. It used to be that you would see Afrikaans kids with the rugby game, black children playing football, and English-speaking South Africans cricket. There is a long way to go, but I am glad that grassroots sport has experienced SOME transformation. Let's have more!

Aaah...you mean that before people were used to play sports like ghetto-sports. It seems way better now then.

 

[Jaguares]

Nooo I love the Springboks!

 

[TRF_heineken]

Stop there the politically correct thinking. I didn't care about ever and I will never care. If I offend you, check out your mind before mine. The problem might be closer to you than is to me.

What I just meant about white flight is every south african I've met, is white. White as snow. Whiter than me haha. So there is a white flight. Not as heavy as was with zimbabweans of course. Are they right or wrong about leaving to Australia, Netherlands or UK? I just don't know. They are the ones who should know, not me. I'm not a judge.

No, I don't get the diversity obsession. I'm 1/4 sephardic jewish (my mother's mother) of moroccan origin and 1/16 black (it was obvious by looking my father's father he was not white at all) so I don't think the diversity is anything to embrace like something important to achieve.

Why is it either good or bad? I wouldn't have a problem being an american citizen and feeling represented by an all black basketball team. Would you have any problem?

P.S: I dindn't know about bushmen to be a derogatory name. In Spain they are called "bosquimanos" and is not peyorative. So Koi or Shan...nicer names, better than bushmen.

Those are really good news. Glad to read it.



I didn't describe them as bushmen.



Yeah, let's skip this part



Aaah...you mean that before people were used to play sports like ghetto-sports. It seems way better now then.

You did describe them as bushmen, now in 3 posts!!

The San and Khoi are the ancestors of the current African cultures. The San is completely extinct and the Khoi has very few numbers left in a very small region in SA. Don't post about something you didn't do any research from.

Then saying that you only have met White South Africans, and that is what you're aiming at with White Flight, is extremely ignorant. Most White South Africans travel to europe as tourists/students/business, and they like to see where their Great- Great- Great- Grandfathers used to live. If you'd ask any Black South African where he would like to travel, it would be to a place in Africa, or to an island for holiday.

Just stop making foolish comments!!

 

[BakkiesBokke]

Many Aussies, Kiwis and Saffers travel to connect with the European countries they originated from. Many Brits live in Spain and indeed Cape Town. People move to different places for many reasons. A few South Africans will even have moved away because they didn't believe in the concept of votes for all in SA back in 1994, whilst others were merely pursuing global careers. People do things for all sorts of different reasons.

We have a wonderful opportunity to (continue to) develop our rugby fan base. This will ultimately increase youth interest in the game, result in more people playing the game in SA, more young players pushing for domestic teams, and ultimately a better average professional player. Therefore widening the appeal of a sport can also improve a national team long term, although what it does for social cohesion is even greater fundamentally..

 

[Da Grappla]

You did describe them as bushmen, now in 3 posts!!

Not at all. Read him and read me. He thinks I described every black south african as bushmen, when I didn't.

The San and Khoi are the ancestors of the current African cultures. The San is completely extinct and the Khoi has very few numbers left in a very small region in SA. Don't post about something you didn't do any research from.

I might know more than you could think, but if you want to stick with the denomination issue, it's up to you.

Then saying that you only have met White South Africans, and that is what you're aiming at with White Flight, is extremely ignorant. Most White South Africans travel to europe as tourists/students/business, and they like to see where their Great- Great- Great- Grandfathers used to live. If you'd ask any Black South African where he would like to travel, it would be to a place in Africa, or to an island for holiday.

Yeah, the thing is they were working after moving with the whole family and having left his countryhome behind to, as they said, never go back. Usually I did pay less attention to zimbabweans because I know Mugabe is evil, but white zimbabweans used to own the whole country and, well..that doesn't seem fair to me.

Just stop making foolish comments!!

You are nobody, man. Just a forum member (and one I like to read by the way) You can't tell me what I can talk about. Let alone when you are with your liberal vigilante mindset on the watch.

I missed the word racist haha.

Nah, let's shake hands and forget the whole thing.

Many Aussies, Kiwis and Saffers travel to connect with the European countries they originated from. Many Brits live in Spain and indeed Cape Town. People move to different places for many reasons. A few South Africans will even have moved away because they didn't believe in the concept of votes for all in SA back in 1994, whilst others were merely pursuing global careers. People do things for all sorts of different reasons.

Well, they didn't say a thing about the race/apartheid issue, but more about safety for women and children. I only have met once with a racist afrikaner (our former blindside flanker). He was always making statements about race, about how cowards ruined South Africa and all that usual stuff. My answer was always the same; if you didn't want blacks in your country, you shouldn't have allowed them but you wanted them to perform heavy duties while earning low wages

We have a wonderful opportunity to (continue to) develop our rugby fan base. This will ultimately increase youth interest in the game, result in more people playing the game in SA, more young players pushing for domestic teams, and ultimately a better average professional player. Therefore widening the appeal of a sport can also improve a national team long term, although what it does for social cohesion is even greater fundamentally..

This I said in the first place, more people means more investment and more rugby. And more rugby>anything else

 

[RugbyUnion]

Well, they didn't say a thing about the race/apartheid issue, but more about safety for women and children. I only have met once with a racist afrikaner (our former blindside flanker). He was always making statements about race, about how cowards ruined South Africa and all that usual stuff. My answer was always the same; if you didn't want blacks in your country, you shouldn't have allowed them but you wanted them to perform heavy duties while earning low wages

Bloody hell! You do know that black people lived in SA and and were not merely imported for labour. Isn't there some ultra-right board you can share your views on instead of here? You sound like a white supremacist.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well, they didn't say a thing about the race/apartheid issue, but more about safety for women and children. I only have met once with a racist afrikaner (our former blindside flanker). He was always making statements about race, about how cowards ruined South Africa and all that usual stuff. My answer was always the same; if you didn't want blacks in your country, you shouldn't have allowed them but you wanted them to perform heavy duties while earning low wages

Again... WHAT???

You do know that they were here the whole time, even before Jan van Riebeeck, Vasco Da Gama or any other colonist/settler came to these shores... Shouldn't allow them?? They are 90% of our population...

Just, STOP!

 

[RugbyUnion]

:wall:

 

[Da Grappla]

Impressive...liberals on the watch again. Men, people, try to understand it. I know my English sucks, but it's not that hard.

Bloody hell! You do know that black people lived in SA and and were not merely imported for labour. Isn't there some ultra-right board you can share your views on instead of here? You sound like a white supremacist.

That's how you answer to a white supremacist who uses a double standard that goes like this; blacks are bad but if they are performing heavy duties inside a mine getting a mere fraction of what white workers earnt, then they are ok

He didn't get the point about it; if they are useful to you, if they are workers, either skilled or unskilled...then they must be citizens. If they have duties, they must have rights. Equal ones.

Again... WHAT???

You do know that they were here the whole time, even before Jan van Riebeeck, Vasco Da Gama or any other colonist/settler came to these shores... Shouldn't allow them?? They are 90% of our population...

Just, STOP!

Who were there even before Vasco da Gama? The zulus?

Nevertheless, I wasn't walking that way,

Apartheid South Africa was based on a heavy migration rate, internal and from neighbouring countries. Apartheid South Africa even allowed congolese and mozanbican refugees in hundreds of thousands.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I've been reading through here and I've been trying my best to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but ths thread... @Da Grappla, I can only assume your comments along the lines of "allowing them into your country" refered to the 'Boer states' of Transvaal and the Orange Free State which were seperate entities from what we now call SA? Even so, that was prior to the Freedom war which we lost and when we seperated from the British empire we inherited the whole conglomerate and were happy to do so. SA is what it is and its still a young country going through a lot of growing pains and yes there is a lot too address but there is also a ton of stuff we are proud of and thankful for and while there are certainly a lot of ex-pats who emmigrated for reasons I am sure were legit for them specifically the fact is the majority of people are happy to work together for a free, fair, safe and equitable SA. Sadly the voices of that majority are not the ones people outside of SA will hear seeing as foreigners will either talk to those who either have the most bias or who were the victims of some of some of our sadder current realities or through the media who won't comment on the thousands of instances where SA is growing and getting our **** right but rather nly focus on the negative. Your comments on here, even keeping in mind English is not your first language, are gross generalizations and tend towards being insulting. Could I please ask you to just re-read what you post and consider how it can be taken?

 

[Da Grappla]

I've been reading through here and I've been trying my best to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but ths thread... @Da Grappla, I can only assume your comments along the lines of "allowing them into your country" refered to the 'Boer states' of Transvaal and the Orange Free State which were seperate entities from what we now call SA? Even so, that was prior to the Freedom war which we lost and when we seperated from the British empire we inherited the whole conglomerate and were happy to do so. SA is what it is and its still a young country going through a lot of growing pains and yes there is a lot too address but there is also a ton of stuff we are proud of and thankful for and while there are certainly a lot of ex-pats who emmigrated for reasons I am sure were legit for them specifically the fact is the majority of people are happy to work together for a free, fair, safe and equitable SA. Sadly the voices of that majority are not the ones people outside of SA will hear seeing as foreigners will either talk to those who either have the most bias or who were the victims of some of some of our sadder current realities or through the media who won't comment on the thousands of instances where SA is growing and getting our **** right but rather nly focus on the negative. Your comments on here, even keeping in mind English is not your first language, are gross generalizations and tend towards being insulting. Could I please ask you to just re-read what you post and consider how it can be taken?

Read my message, the one that is above yours.

Of course you are a very young country. One that has many challenges but also has many chances to deliver.

And don't be mistaken, south africa at least in Spain, is looked in the light of being one of the BRICS countries. And this is good, because they are considered as the future superpowers among the current ones.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Impressive...liberals on the watch again. Men, people, try to understand it. I know my English sucks, but it's not that hard.



That's how you answer to a white supremacist who uses a double standard that goes like this; blacks are bad but if they are performing heavy duties inside a mine getting a mere fraction of what white workers earnt, then they are ok

He didn't get the point about it; if they are useful to you, if they are workers, either skilled or unskilled...then they must be citizens. If they have duties, they must have rights. Equal ones.



Who were there even before Vasco da Gama? The zulus?

Nevertheless, I wasn't walking that way,

Apartheid South Africa was based on a heavy migration rate, internal and from neighbouring countries. Apartheid South Africa even allowed congolese and mozanbican refugees in hundreds of thousands.

NO! The San and the Khoi-Khoi was here. Do you need a history lesson?

Also, Apartheid wasn't part of South Africa since it's inception. Did you know this?? Apartheid allowed many things, it's not like we closed our borders and said stay away or keep out... Apartheid in Afrikaans literally means "Seperation", which is what happened, The White people who, at that time were the leaders, were seperated from the non-white people, and different rules and laws applied to the 2 groups.

But never was it a matter of not allowing people to enter or exit the country. Hell, we even gave people refuge who were fleeing from Mozambique when Renamo and Frelimo were at war...

 

[Da Grappla]

NO! The San and the Khoi-Khoi was here. Do you need a history lesson?

Given they might be the most pure extant homo sapiens (now it is known that whites, blacks or yellows have genetical admixture with neanderthals and other primitive homo species) that got out of Central Africa, no.

Also, Apartheid wasn't part of South Africa since it's inception. Did you know this?? Apartheid allowed many things, it's not like we closed our borders and said stay away or keep out... Apartheid in Afrikaans literally means "Seperation", which is what happened, The White people who, at that time were the leaders, were seperated from the non-white people, and different rules and laws applied to the 2 groups.

Of course I know, is a XX century development. The point is our former blindside flanker didn't miss the Voortrekkers age, but the apartheid one. Since the guy is under 35 right now, I don't believe that thinking of his could be of his own crop, but his parent's

And that was the hypocrisy of our former 6 (your 7), missing an era he didn't live as an adult so he could have had a better understunding of the issues, being a white supremacist and at the same time, wanting the blacks and the mulattoes (you call them colored I suppose) for the heavy and dirty work but the lower wages.

But never was it a matter of not allowing people to enter or exit the country. Hell, we even gave people refuge who were fleeing from Mozambique when Renamo and Frelimo were at war...

Yeah, but the south african rulers of that era gave them a second rate treating because of their race