Springbokke in the 2013 RC

[TRF_stormer2010]

South Africa squad:
Props: Jannie du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira, Trevor Nyakane, Coenie Oosthuizen, Gurthrö Steenkamp
Hookers: Bismarck du Plessis, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Adriaan Strauss
Locks: Eben Etzebeth, Juandré Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Franco van der Merwe
Loose forwards: Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Siya Kolisi, Francois Louw, Duane Vermeulen
Scrum-halves: Fourie du Preez (SA Tests only), Ruan Pienaar, Jano Vermaak Piet van Zyl (Overseas Tests)
Fly-halves: Pat Lambie, Morné Steyn
Centres: Juan de Jongh, Jean de Villiers (c), JJ Engelbrecht, Jan Serfontein
Outside backs: Bjorn Basson, Bryan Habana, Zane Kirchner, Willie le Roux

So what do people think of the squad, our chances etc?

I for one am quite happy with the squad considering injuries my only concern being a fear that too much of relying on overseas based players will lead to an even bigger exodus of local talent (if that is possible.. scratch that I am sure it is).

As for our chances.. I am optimistic but think we aren't there yet to win outright unless we some upsets against NZ (who are still in poll position due to great continuity on top of there traditional abundance of talent). I'd be happy with winning all our home games and the game in Mendoza but would love a win in Australasia and think that would make for a very successful year if we could manage that but I think we are too green as a team to realistically expect a win there at this stage.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Injured and out of consideration:
Frans Steyn, Johan Goosen, Francois Hougaard, PS du Toit, JP Pietersen, Pierre Spies, Arno Botha, Schalk Burger, Andries Bekker, who did I miss?

Some concerns:
-only one tighthead in Jannie du Plessis and he has m=been massively overplayed these last three years! Coenie is a big question mark at tighthead IMO and should first really prove himself in that position in SR before being considered for the spot at test level. No denying he is a very strong fellow and exceptionally handy in the loose but can he make his bulk count in the scrum??
- we are thin in the outback department for me; Le Roux, YES!, Habana, yes but we cannot rely on him forever. Kirchner and Basson are only there to make up the numbers.

On the positive side we have made big strides from last year IMO and if you consider the injured guys we have some depth but we are still looking for the players to successfully replace FdP (unless he can make a commitment to SA again and regain at least some of his form which he has from accounts) and Matfiled.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Coenie is a better Tighthead than a loosehead. And we are going to play with the new Scrum rules (hence the selection of Guthro). So I am not too worried about the Scrums, as the props and the Hookers that were selected, are big strong guys. I think HM was very clever with the Forwards he picked. He picked the Traditional Big Strong heavy guys (apart from Kolisi). With this new scrum laws, and the hit basically not being such a big factor, the heavier packs will gain the upper hand against lighter packs. And the art of actually hooking a ball will be of vital importance.

As for the Backline, I think you are forgetting we have utility backs. Jean De Villiers and JJ Engelbrecht can easily slot in on the wing and Lambie at centre. Kirchner, Willie and Lambie can cover fullback, with only Jan Serfontein and JDJ as specialist centres.

That being said, I am interested to see who will be called up when the injuries happen, as this will be the game-changer.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Coenie is a better Tighthead than a loosehead. And we are going to play with the new Scrum rules (hence the selection of Guthro). So I am not too worried about the Scrums, as the props and the Hookers that were selected, are big strong guys. I think HM was very clever with the Forwards he picked. He picked the Traditional Big Strong heavy guys (apart from Kolisi). With this new scrum laws, and the hit basically not being such a big factor, the heavier packs will gain the upper hand against lighter packs. And the art of actually hooking a ball will be of vital importance.

As for the Backline, I think you are forgetting we have utility backs. Jean De Villiers and JJ Engelbrecht can easily slot in on the wing and Lambie at centre. Kirchner, Willie and Lambie can cover fullback, with only Jan Serfontein and JDJ as specialist centres.

That being said, I am interested to see who will be called up when the injuries happen, as this will be the game-changer.

I forgot we are playing under the new scrum rules. Will be very interesting to see how it goes and I agree it favours us more so than some of the other teams.

At the back though it would be a travesty IMO if we had too move players all over the park again; that's no way to generate continuity and thus momentum IMO.

 

[TRF_heineken]

At the back though it would be a travesty IMO if we had too move players all over the park again; that's no way to generate continuity and thus momentum IMO.

i'm not saying we should move them, I'm saying we could.

I was surprized/relieved when I didn't see Elton Jantjies' name in the group. Which was an indication that HM won't pick a guy who is not on form. But that made me wonder about the Fly Half position. Only Lambie and Steyn. With Goosen injured, Elton off form, and Even Catrakilis out... If eithe Lambie or Steyn gets injured, we will be stuck with Pienaar at Fly Half... And that nobody wants.

BUT

With the new flair in what Willie le Roux has brought to the team, we could see him slot into that position during a match, and move Lambie or Steyn to fullback, to give us a more attacking edge. And if that fails, we will have a good kicker, to keep the pressure on the opposing team.


My latest concern is: The first match, which will be on the 17th of August against Argentina at the FNB Stadium (soccer city). We have a crap record there, played 2, lost 2 (both versus NZ). It's part of the Nelson Mandela Celebration Party. Where 2 soccer games will precede the Rugby match. now we all know that the lines on the field for Rugby and Soccer is not the same... I hope they use different colours or something so that it doesn't become too confusing when the Rugby match starts...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

i'm not saying we should move them, I'm saying we could.

I was surprized/relieved when I didn't see Elton Jantjies' name in the group. Which was an indication that HM won't pick a guy who is not on form. But that made me wonder about the Fly Half position. Only Lambie and Steyn. With Goosen injured, Elton off form, and Even Catrakilis out... If eithe Lambie or Steyn gets injured, we will be stuck with Pienaar at Fly Half... And that nobody wants.

BUT

With the new flair in what Willie le Roux has brought to the team, we could see him slot into that position during a match, and move Lambie or Steyn to fullback, to give us a more attacking edge. And if that fails, we will have a good kicker, to keep the pressure on the opposing team.


My latest concern is: The first match, which will be on the 17th of August against Argentina at the FNB Stadium (soccer city). We have a crap record there, played 2, lost 2 (both versus NZ). It's part of the Nelson Mandela Celebration Party. Where 2 soccer games will precede the Rugby match. now we all know that the lines on the field for Rugby and Soccer is not the same... I hope they use different colours or something so that it doesn't become too confusing when the Rugby match starts...

Both those matches against NZ we could easily won and really should've won the one TBH but for 1 fateful missed tackle. And no offense to the Pumas but they aren't the All Blacks.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Both those matches against NZ we could easily won and really should've won the one TBH but for 1 fateful missed tackle. And no offense to the Pumas but they aren't the All Blacks.

Yeah, I know... I was there on both occasions... This time I won't be there, so we'll win...

 

[Big Ewis]

didn't realize there were THAT many key injuries...that just flat out sucks.
Spoke a little too fast there in my "So...." thread I think. Second place most probably...still a good squad.
They need one win at least against the AB, hopefully for them they can withstand the coming of the AB at home coz they probably won't get it there on the island, away - and a little bit of luck, NZ unexpectedly losing against Australia too or smt similar.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

didn't realize there were THAT many key injuries...that just flat out sucks.
Spoke a little too fast there in my "So...." thread I think. Second place most probably...still a good squad.
They need one win at least against the AB, hopefully for them they can withstand the coming of the AB at home coz they probably won't get it there on the island, away - and a little bit of luck, NZ unexpectedly losing against Australia too or smt similar.

We have a lot of injuries, yea. But TBH I don't think they are so key. For almost all of these guys we have close enough replacements. The only factor is a loss in continuity and experience which I admit one needs to take into consideration but I think we wouldn't have been in with too much of a shout of finishing 1st at this stage even were everyone fit; we are still too green as a team IMO (although with a bit of luck who knows). Key players IMO are our hookers who are all fit now, FLouw simply because we need an out-and-out 'fetcher' and with Brussow for some strange reason out of favour Louw is all we got in the fold ATM and the difference with him and without him was shown against Scotland where we got murdered at the breakdown; we can't expect the ref to sort it out any more as we have seen too many times that they don't police the breakdowns. Then at 9 there isn't a stand-out player at this stage so our injuries there don't make such a huge difference even though SA rugby revolves around the 9 jersey. I see JdV and Steyn as key players at this stage though I think that'll naturally change over the next year towards 2014. The same with our locking options as with no.9; it isn't easy to replace Matfield.

 

[Jaguares]

*Fourie du Preez and Gurthrö Steenkam??? Is this a joke?

Regards

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

*Fourie du Preez and Gurthrö Steenkam??? Is this a joke?

Regards

Would you call the inclusion of Dan Carter and Tony Woodcock for the Kiwi's a joke? Because:

Fourie du Preez
age: 31
role: decision maker

Dan Carter
age: 31
role: decision maker

Guthro Steenkamp
age: 32
role: loose head prop

Tony Woodcock
age: 32
role: loosehead prop

All 4 of these are proven world class players and have at some time arguably been the best in their position in the world and still have a lot to offer any test team. Does that clear anything up?

 

[Jaguares]

Fourie du Preez
age: 31
role: decision maker

Dan Carter
age: 31
role: decision maker

Guthro Steenkamp
age: 32
role: loose head prop

Tony Woodcock
age: 32
role: loosehead prop

Does that clear anything up?

Steenkamp is OK because he's prop but du Preez is scrum-half, in his position he needs speed.

NZ scrum half:

Aaron Smith

Age: 24

TJ Perenara

Age: 21

Kerr-Barlow

Age: 22

They are young and fast...

How long ago that du Preez doesn't play high level rugby?

Regards

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Steenkamp is OK because he's prop but du Preez is scrum-half, in his position he needs speed.

NZ scrum half:

Aaron Smith

Age: 24

TJ Perenara

Age: 21

Kerr-Barlow

Age: 22

They are young and fast...

How long ago that du Preez doesn't play high level rugby?

Regards

Yet the AB's have Piri Weepu ahead of Kerr-Barlow and he certainly isn't any faster than FdP. I'd be surprised if Weepu didn't feature at all and SA only has FdP- who has lead his Japanese club team to 2 consecutive ***le wins by the way and should be rested (playing consistently half-injured for SA and the Bulls towards the RWC 2011 had a big effect on him)- only for 1/2 of the games. FdP's value was also never his speed. Would you leave out Dan Carter because of speed?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yet the AB's have Piri Weepu ahead of Kerr-Barlow and he certainly isn't any faster than FdP. I'd be surprised if Weepu didn't feature at all and SA only has FdP- who has lead his Japanese club team to 2 consecutive ***le wins by the way and should be rested (playing consistently half-injured for SA and the Bulls towards the RWC 2011 had a big effect on him)- only for 1/2 of the games. FdP's value was also never his speed. Would you leave out Dan Carter because of speed?

Agree!! FdP was never the fastest scrumhalf, just like Mike Phillips and Justin Marshall... They are guys who play smart, gets to the breakdowns and feeds the ball off to the forwards and backline, along with the boxkick...

Speed isn't the only attribute you need from a scrumhalf

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Agree!! FdP was never the fastest scrumhalf, just like Mike Phillips and Justin Marshall... They are guys who play smart, gets to the breakdowns and feeds the ball off to the forwards and backline, along with the boxkick...

Speed isn't the only attribute you need from a scrumhalf

I remember the days (prior to injury) that FdP could do no wrong; when he sniped the blindside it was for try, when he skip passed Morne it was for a try, when he went for the box kick we got possession back 3/4 of the time, when the opposition chip kicked FdP was there to field and counter or kick into space and he just knows when to keep it tight and when the time is right to let the backline have a go. True the game has changed but we can still do with a 9 who's primary role is decision making. Du Preez shouldn't at all get slower to the breakdowns than our current 9's have up till now and his service was always crisp.

 

[psychic duck]

George Gregan's record of 139 caps was hardly based purely on being "young and fast". Nor is it why Kahn Fotuali'i or Morgan Parra for example are highly regarded currently in Europe. Only a Highlight Harry would select their scrum half based on such criteria.

 

[Jaguares]

Agree!! FdP was never the fastest scrumhalf, just like Mike Phillips and Justin Marshall... They are guys who play smart, gets to the breakdowns and feeds the ball off to the forwards and backline, along with the boxkick...

Speed isn't the only attribute you need from a scrumhalf

Ok but how long ago that du Preez doesn't play high level rugby?

Regards

 

[TRF_heineken]

Ok but how long ago that du Preez doesn't play high level rugby?

Regards

Would you ask that same question to the Brumbies and George Smth?

 

[donmcdazzle]

Yet the AB's have Piri Weepu ahead of Kerr-Barlow and he certainly isn't any faster than FdP. I'd be surprised if Weepu didn't feature at all and SA only has FdP- who has lead his Japanese club team to 2 consecutive ***le wins by the way and should be rested (playing consistently half-injured for SA and the Bulls towards the RWC 2011 had a big effect on him)- only for 1/2 of the games. FdP's value was also never his speed. Would you leave out Dan Carter because of speed?

Weepu got dropped by the way, for being too slow.

 

[nickdnz]

Agree!! FdP was never the fastest scrumhalf, just like Mike Phillips and Justin Marshall... They are guys who play smart, gets to the breakdowns and feeds the ball off to the forwards and backline, along with the boxkick...

Speed isn't the only attribute you need from a scrumhalf

To be fair to Justin Marshall - he was very quick when he was younger. But I agree that speed isn't everything for a halfback. My bigger problem with du Preez there is that him and Piet van Zyl can only play home or away tests? Continuity in terms of play and training seem like they could become a problem.