South Africa vs British and Irish Lions - Test 2

[MACCA]

Welsh fan here. Been lurking a while.

Thoughts on yesterday in the guise of a 3rd test team:
1. Jones
2. George
3. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. Beirne
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Conan
9. Price
10. Biggar
11. Adams
12. Farrell
13. Henshaw
14. Watson
15. Williams

16 LCD
17 Vunipola
18 Sinckler
19 Henderson
20 Watson
21 Davies
22 Daly
23 Hogg

That bench isnt very thought out though, can't get a balance and can't work out a better choice for 22 with general centre cover but the first 15 is better anyway. Will Russell make the bench? If we need some magic to win a game, he's great to have there, but to defend a game I'd be concerned. Will a fresher Watson make his way in at 7 too? I really don't want Daly in there but can't see a better choice?

Yes, also I'm Welsh and I dropped AWJ too. Love the man, and admire him and what he's done for Wales but he's not the best man to be in to win this test. Enough leaders in that team surely! I'd echo thoughts that James Ryan and Sexton should be there and would be in my 23.

You have to score points to defend a game.

 

[MACCA]

You have to score points to defend a game.

I cannot see the logic in 6,7,8 , 19,12 , 14 21 and 22. Play Biggar and Boks load the centres who will jus get thrashed if they ever get the ball. Biggar can't break the line and can't put a grabber through. He is meat and drink to the Boks. Ball to Biggar, no break,no pass , no offload - b it poor kick. Returned with interest by Boks the best kick and chase team in the world. Even if the back 3 catch it 30 mins later Murray arrives and points at the ball Penalty . Tell me if I am wrong but you can always delete Biggar and insert Farrell.

 

[MACCA]

It´s more of an art than a science but you can spot a few things. First and foremost, a sign of leadership is people listening to that person. They can sense things, like what the team needs at a particular moment and how to transmit that message so that it resonates with the team. Sometimes you need the team to cool down and a few words at the right time can make the difference. Sometimes you need grit and the right phrase can have a huge impact.
Skill helps as performance can be inspirational, but it is not necessary.

And leadership is not the same as being right. It is rare as leadership is largely based on credibility so being right does help, a lot, but you could potentially be a natural leader who makes a few wrong calls, at least in the short run.

It's hard to describe but you can spot it a mile away.
Farrell and Sexton come to mind (to name two non-arg ones). To be completely honest, AWJ does not.

I agree but I think that Sexton and Farrell had it but now don't.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Some reflections after a day to mull it over (but haven't rewatched yet)

Before the 1st test I said that I didn't see how the lions win the game - based on gameplan, points of difference etc. Predictably I was wrong, but that's how I'm feeling again ahead of number 3, unless we really do mix things up. When you look across our performances in the two tests, some individuals have really stood out but without there being any x factor anywhere really, beyond maybe Itoje at times. We've got no BOD-like figure, a Tuilagi, or even a B. Vunipola figure (at his best) to really push the opposition. Don't get me wrong, we've some very good players, but mostly they're here to execute a plan and there aren't a great deal of names I would be backing to dig you out of a big hole where you need something special.

Our attacking stats are really illustrative of what happened and not at all pretty - noone made more than 20 metres and only 3 players more than 10; Mako beat twice as many defenders as the closest back, and we off-loaded the ball just twice in the whole game. That's tough when the boks are a team with whom you want to change the point of attack and utilise footwork.

On defence, it's interesting that we still only missed 2 tackles, but our starting backline turned the ball over 10 times and that's the game right there. Half of those instances being Watson & Hogg.

At this point, our point of difference which we have to use is our squad size, and the form of a number of guys who were unlucky to miss out and have a point to prove. 2 tests of this intensity within 7 days is a lot, and I don't think we have all that many undroppables.

My team:

Mako (Unless Wyn can make it)
George (He's fresh, powerful and not a step-down from LCD)
Furlong (Probably our most important player, even if not his best yesterday)

Itoje (Don't want to burn him out but he's capable of producing those key moments)
AWJ (Eghhh I want Henderson here to be honest - in which Farrell or Biggar to captain. But AWJ+Itoje have the partnership going and AWJs defensive shift is easy to overlook to be fair - he made the most tackles on the whole pitch yesterday, missing none)

Beirne (unlucky to not have started a test yet,)
Watson (see above)
Faletau (Tough on Conan who has been strong, but Toby is fresh and that footwork is a point of difference)

Davies (Possibly the most talented 9 in the squad)
Biggar (He's in form and playing well - it's not his fault the gameplan is to kick kick kick, although he's not a natural attacking 10 anyway)

Farrell (12 feels like his best position these days and I think two playmakers is our best shot at a win now)
Henshaw (The swapping around is tough on Harris who had a great game, but Henshaw has been our most consistent back I think, even if not at his very best)

Adams (The form winger, seriously unlucky thus far)
Rees Zammit (Give youth a chance!)
Williams (Probably the most likely player to break open the game in the whole touring party. Has to start regardless of Hoggs' citing)

Sutherland
Sinkler
LCD
Henderson
Curry
Murray
Smith
Daly

I'm not precious about any of this, probably way off in some spots. I'm not convinced by the back-row to be honest.

 

[Reiser99]

What do people make of the Hogg bite? Footage not really conclusive for me, but equally can't see what else he's doing.

I also can't see what else he's doing. He moves his mouth towards Le Roux's arm. Not saying he did bite and I imagine to be cited there would need to be some kind of mark on Le Roux's arm, but honestly if he's not biting what was he doing? Nothing in his statement gives an explanation for his actions.

 

[MACCA]

I also can't see what else he's doing. He moves his mouth towards Le Roux's arm. Not saying he did bite and I imagine to be cited there would need to be some kind of mark on Le Roux's arm, but honestly if he's not biting what was he doing? Nothing in his statement gives an explanation for his actions.

Maybe didn't want an elbow to the cheek after last tour with Lions.

 

[anderton46]

Pretty pointless even discussing it considering there is no footage that actually shows a bite.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wanted to hold his arm while also avoiding getting caught in the face?
I dunno, it doesn't look good but, as mentioned above, there's no way Le Roux wouldn't react to getting bitten - he would never miss a chance to kick off

 

[Die Bokke]

No cuttings yet and only 40 mins left. I hope for none. It would be a travesty for the players on such a big occasion for all involved!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

No cuttings yet and only 40 mins left. I hope for none. It would be a travesty for the players on such a big occasion for all involved!

I want Farrell cited just so he can't play the next game.

 

[ncurd]

I want Farrell cited just so he can't play the next game.

I'm having Tshirts made join the club far more fun that NH SA supporters club.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If Kolbe isn't cited then I hope Rassie makes a 2hr video about referee inconsistencies this time

Mako and Maro should probably be up in front of the beak too

 

[Jimbo]

No cuttings yet and only 40 mins left. I hope for none. It would be a travesty for the players on such a big occasion for all involved!

Probably ok to let the odd one slide, do think Kolbe needs an example made two pretty obvious reckless offences in a fairly short period of time, it's really not a good look, seen similar to both those incidences individually result in a Red.

 

[Die Bokke]

Probably ok to let the odd one slide, do think Kolbe needs an example made two pretty obvious reckless offences in a fairly short period of time, it's really not a good look, seen similar to both those incidences individually result in a Red.

Don't disagree he should but mako on even first min could be argued too. I just feel for the players missing out on arguably the biggest game of their careers

 

[ncurd]

After Watson escaped justice last week I can't see any from this week (even though I've not seen the incidents). Honestly it annoys me World Rugby were making great strides a few years back to cut out nonsense especially headshots and now we appear to have taken loads of steps back.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Was there something other than the one Kolbe got carded for? Must have missed it. Tbf, although I think it was poor timing rather than malicious that could easily have been red. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't citings only for foul play that wasn't dealt with in play? In which case Kolbe can't be cited is what I am getting at.

Other than that I didn't see anything warranting red from SA. Apart from possibly Itoje taking a knee on De Allende the only thing I can think of from the Lions side possibly a late tip tackle from Curry on PSDT but you do see those sorts of things go without. So essentially, I wouldnt be surprised to see no actual citings. A few questionable shoulders, chop tackles and the like both ways. Actually quite strange none of them got pinged TBH now that I think on it. At the very least it went both ways. Oh, I forgot Sous put a Farrell tackle on Farrell. Thought that was a yellow surely. I suspect if it was anyone other than the man himself it might have been. The intention was there. It should not matter that it looked more clumsy than anything else with Farrell spinning in the contact. Yeah, there was a lot of playing the man this game wasn't there. Live it didn't feel like much, at least not in the first half but taking the game as a whole.. Yikes.

On Hogg. Looks.. weird and Le Roux does have some sort of reaction but if it really was a bite I'd imagine they'd have brought it up there and then surely? Was it SARU accusing Hogg of biting or just a random Twitter account? I d give Hogg the benefit of the doubt. I mean, unless there is an angle where Le Rouxs arm is not in the way. Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Was there something other than the one Kolbe got carded for? Must have missed it. Tbf, although I think it was poor timing rather than malicious that could easily have been red. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't citings only for foul play that wasn't dealt with in play? In which

If it's deemed a red card offence it can be cited even if penalised/yellow carded on pitch

Kolbes hit on Curry and his taking Murray out in the air have both had very similar incidents see red this season

Though as ncurd says, above, if Watson's tip tackle last week can go unpunished then it shows the citing commission are on their summer holidays already

Maros knee on DDA probably happens at a dozen rucks a game but the cameras were right there so they might want to make an example
Makos was a shoulder to the face, pretty clear cut

 

[odw26]

Watson's wasn't a red card though, therefore no citing necessary. I agree, though, that World Rugby appear to have taken steps back in regards to player safety on this tour, which is really disappointing to see. The one that irritates me the most is the de Klerk one on Connor Murray because logically if World Rugby are serious about eradicating head-on-head contact, then defenders' tackle technique has to be put under a microscope and the way he flew in should be a big no-no.
If Kolbe, de Klerk, Vunipola and Hogg all get cited and miss next week's game, so what? They've no one to blame but themselves and there is no argument to say that they shouldn't just because of the occasion.

 

[Reiser99]

Was there something other than the one Kolbe got carded for? Must have missed it. Tbf, although I think it was poor timing rather than malicious that could easily have been red. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't citings only for foul play that wasn't dealt with in play? In which case Kolbe can't be cited is what I am getting at.

Other than that I didn't see anything warranting red from SA. Apart from possibly Itoje taking a knee on De Allende the only thing I can think of from the Lions side possibly a late tip tackle from Curry on PSDT but you do see those sorts of things go without. So essentially, I wouldnt be surprised to see no actual citings. A few questionable shoulders, chop tackles and the like both ways. Actually quite strange none of them got pinged TBH now that I think on it. At the very least it went both ways. Oh, I forgot Sous put a Farrell tackle on Farrell. Thought that was a yellow surely. I suspect if it was anyone other than the man himself it might have been. The intention was there. It should not matter that it looked more clumsy than anything else with Farrell spinning in the contact. Yeah, there was a lot of playing the man this game wasn't there. Live it didn't feel like much, at least not in the first half but taking the game as a whole.. Yikes.

On Hogg. Looks.. weird and Le Roux does have some sort of reaction but if it really was a bite I'd imagine they'd have brought it up there and then surely? Was it SARU accusing Hogg of biting or just a random Twitter account? I d give Hogg the benefit of the doubt. I mean, unless there is an angle where Le Rouxs arm is not in the way. Innocent until proven guilty.

I assume this is correct on wikipedia, but feel free to correct if wrong.

In rugby union, a citing commissioner is an independent official, appointed by the competition organizer, the union in which the match is taking place, or the World Rugby, who is responsible for citing players who commit any act of foul play which in the opinion of the Citing Commissioner warranted the player concerned being Ordered Off (Red card).

Citing Commissioners may cite Players for an act(s) of foul play where such act(s) may have been detected by the referee or assistant referee and which may have been the subject of referee action. A Citing Commissioner may not cite a Player for an act(s) of Foul Play in respect of which the Player has been Ordered Off save where the Ordering Off is as a result of two yellow cards. A Player in that situation may also be cited for the act(s) of Foul Play which resulted in either or both yellow card(s).

Citing Commissioners may cite a Player if he has been Temporarily Suspended (Yellow card). Such citing may be made in respect of the incident(s) for which the Player was Temporarily Suspended or otherwise. A citing complaint by a Citing Commissioner must be sent in writing to the nominated officer of the Host Union or Tournament Organiser responsible for the Match in which the incident that is the subject of the citing complaint occurred within ordinarily a minimum of 12 hours and no later than a maximum of 48 hours of the conclusion of the Match.

Teams may bring offences to the attention of the citing commissioner for review. The citing commissioner may cite a player even if the referee has already dealt with the issue (except where the player has been Ordered Off). Where there is no Citing Commissioner appointed, each team participating in a Match, or any of its authorised officials, or its Union, may cite: (i) a Player(s) for an act(s) of alleged Foul Play committed during that Match provided that such act(s) have not been detected by the Match Officials; (ii) a Player for more than one incident of alleged Foul Play in the same Match; and (iii) more than one Player in any Match. Citing complaints must be notified within 48 hours of the conclusion of the match

A player who is cited is called to a hearing to show cause why he should not be treated as having been sent off for the alleged offence. The player is entitled to be represented. The hearing usually takes place before three independent persons nominated by the union or the competition organizer, and is generally convened within a week of the match in question. If the offence is proven, the panel issues a penalty, usually in the form of a suspension for a number of weeks.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Watson's tip tackle could/should've been red though

Forgot about Fafs hit on Murray - definitely deserved a look. Didn't show the best camera angle on TV but definitely looked high, and the way Faf reacted he looked like he thought he was off