South Africa squad for England tests

[Cave Dweller]

Personally I'd love Mujati back but that's just it; he needs to be back in SA because even though I agree that we should not discard foreign based players as a hard and fast rule BUT only if they are so much better than the locally based players and that only brings Frans Steyn into contention as we have more than able replacement for the rest and you want to award the local players and have Bok selection as a carrot to ensure all our best don't chase the Pound/Yen/Euro.

How does the level of standards in Europe rate compared to the Super 15? Leinster World beaters looking ordinary when they put on the Irish jersey. So I think it is also difficult to asses a players real form playing in other leagues.

I think we should give Sarel Pretorius a cap and spoil the Aussies poaching tactics.

LOL, yeah he probably is good enough but I'd be very surprised to see anyone past F Steyn and/or FdP involved who actually are pursuing the matter by being in SA and meeting with Meyer semi-regularly. F Steyn also has the benefit of being far and away our best player for the 12 jersey with Olivier, JdV and JdJ probably the only other candidates and all not in sublime form.

They tried Liefling before and it did not work out that well.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

How does the level of standards in Europe rate compared to the Super 15? Leinster World beaters looking ordinary when they put on the Irish jersey. So I think it is also difficult to asses a players real form playing in other leagues.

I think we should give Sarel Pretorius a cap and spoil the Aussies poaching tactics.


They tried Liefling before and it did not work out that well.

Mujati was a good prop before he went over and by all reports his better now. Also, I rate the average HC scrums higher than S15 TBH. Blues, probably' have the best scrum here.

Liefling = Derrick Hougaard
Meisiekind = Wynand Olivier

But I agree neither were ever any good in a Bok jersey. Olivier will be on the fringes for Bok selection though unfortunate as it might be and even if it is behind Steyn, JdV and JdJ.

And let the Aussies have pretorius if they want him. Average IMO. He suited the Cheetahs but isn't a test 9 and won't suit the Bokke.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Mujati was a good prop before he went over and by all reports his better now. Also, I rate the average HC scrums higher than S15 TBH. Blues, probably' have the best scrum here.

Liefling = Derrick Hougaard
Meisiekind = Wynand Olivier

But I agree neither were ever any good in a Bok jersey. Olivier will be on the fringes for Bok selection though unfortunate as it might be and even if it is behind Steyn, JdV and JdJ.

And let the Aussies have pretorius if they want him. Average IMO. He suited the Cheetahs but isn't a test 9 and won't suit the Bokke.

Sorry I meant Meisiekind. The HC scrums were a mess I think. But scrumming is only part of the game as work rate comes in. Props these days make almost more tackles and more runs than any other players on the field.

As for Super Rugby's best scrum

I think Pretoruis is a good player. Only reason he is on the bench are due to the fact that McKibbin are the goal kicker and you can not go into a match without one. We have lots of inside centers its that outside center position that bugs me a bit.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Interesting graph that.. I think it's not the fairest reflection of actual scrum strength though as the Bulls aren't the weakest scrum by a long shot and the Cheetahs are on par with the Blues when it comes to scrum strength but Oosthuizen and Nel get pinged a lot half of which is bullshit. I mean the Cheetahs had the Stormers under pressure in the scrum from the get-go but got pinged because Oosthuizen dropped his arm. Once he got that sorted they were dominating.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Interesting graph that.. I think it's not the fairest reflection of actual scrum strength though as the Bulls aren't the weakest scrum by a long shot and the Cheetahs are on par with the Blues when it comes to scrum strength but Oosthuizen and Nel get pinged a lot half of which is bullshit. I mean the Cheetahs had the Stormers under pressure in the scrum from the get-go but got pinged because Oosthuizen dropped his arm. Once he got that sorted they were dominating.

And there you make the mistake. You look at it as "Reward the dominating scrum." Which is only half correct. Reward the better scrum but only if it was acquired through legal scrumming according to the laws. Coenie try to walk around the tigthead a lot of times. He got nailed for it against the Brumbies. But the reason that penalty was dubious was that the scrum wheeled and should have been a reset before the penalty infringement happened.

 

[TRF_heineken]

That graph is misleading, in various ways... in some matches there were a lot more penalties at scrum time than in others, I think the Bulls vs Blues game was one of them. tighter matches also resulted in more scrums and therefore more chances of penalties.

But to blame just the props for penalties at scrum time is a bit harsh... and this is where the Bulls are a prime example, even though they have Dean Greyling and Werner Kruger there, the total weight of the Bulls pack is around 855kg's and more often than not, the other teams are heavier, which leads to more pressure on the Bulls at the scrum. for them to still go and Scrum teams nearly 70kg's heavier than them off the ball, is something to be admired.

As for the topic of Mujati... Like many has said here, we don't need him, we got better props here.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

And there you make the mistake. You look at it as "Reward the dominating scrum." Which is only half correct. Reward the better scrum but only if it was acquired through legal scrumming according to the laws. Coenie try to walk around the tigthead a lot of times. He got nailed for it against the Brumbies. But the reason that penalty was dubious was that the scrum wheeled and should have been a reset before the penalty infringement happened.

My point was just that the graph is not a fair reflection of how good a scrum is. If you want to go into what factors skew the graph that is a whole other can of beans.

By a 'good' scrum i mean scrum strength because you could argue that getting pinged a lot makes your scrum a bad one no matter how strong it is.

 

[Cave Dweller]

That graph is misleading, in various ways... in some matches there were a lot more penalties at scrum time than in others, I think the Bulls vs Blues game was one of them. tighter matches also resulted in more scrums and therefore more chances of penalties.

But to blame just the props for penalties at scrum time is a bit harsh... and this is where the Bulls are a prime example, even though they have Dean Greyling and Werner Kruger there, the total weight of the Bulls pack is around 855kg's and more often than not, the other teams are heavier, which leads to more pressure on the Bulls at the scrum. for them to still go and Scrum teams nearly 70kg's heavier than them off the ball, is something to be admired.

As for the topic of Mujati... Like many has said here, we don't need him, we got better props here.

But the tighthead is the one who need to carry that weight for a couple of seconds on his soldiers. The looseheads job is to disrupt the scrums. So basically a team with the feed will look for a stable scrum where the non feeding team will try to spoil. If you see a tighthead pop up it is because he can not carry that weight and do it for a safety mechanism as he is under tremendous pressure. If he does not do that the scrum have 1 choice and that is to go down. Standing up is not illegal. Will never be illegal. So if your tighthead can not carry that weight or keep a agressive loosehead at bay you will lose in the scrums.

My point was just that the graph is not a fair reflection of how good a scrum is. If you want to go into what factors skew the graph that is a whole other can of beans.

By a 'good' scrum i mean scrum strength because you could argue that getting pinged a lot makes your scrum a bad one no matter how strong it is.

But these days it is more who got the most legal scrum as who got the strongest one. I agree stats are like mini skirts they do show you some bits but it hides the important factors. But penalties can be a important factor especially in tight situations as the Bulls found that out vs the Stormers and the Cheetahs vs them.

 

[TRF_heineken]

But the tighthead is the one who need to carry that weight for a couple of seconds on his soldiers. The looseheads job is to disrupt the scrums. So basically a team with the feed will look for a stable scrum where the non feeding team will try to spoil. If you see a tighthead pop up it is because he can not carry that weight and do it for a safety mechanism as he is under tremendous pressure. If he does not do that the scrum have 1 choice and that is to go down. Standing up is not illegal. Will never be illegal. So if your tighthead can not carry that weight or keep a agressive loosehead at bay you will lose in the scrums.


But these days it is more who got the most legal scrum as who got the strongest one. I agree stats are like mini skirts they do show you some bits but it hides the important factors. But penalties can be a important factor especially in tight situations as the Bulls found that out vs the Stormers and the Cheetahs vs them.

Shoulders...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Who do you predict will be the 'left field' selection? IE the what-was-Meyer-thinking-as-there-is-no-plausible-base-for-this selection?

My bet is Zane Kirschner.

 

[Rhyer]

Anyone keen to make a prediction as to who our 22 will be?
This is not necessarily what I want to see but this is my guess:

1. Coenie Oosthuizen (there can be no other based on form, beast might get the tried and tested nod, and greyling might get the "in the bulls nod" but w/e)
2. Bismarc du Plessis
3. Jannie du Plessis (no other stand-out tight heads sadly, I don't rate him but what can you do)
4. Eben Etzebeth (If there is one youngster who needs to play NOW it's Etzebeth
5. Adries Bekker (not in the greatest of form but I don't think you can start Kruger with Etzebeth from the get go)
6. Heinrich Brussow (we have plenty of great 6's, stander comes to mind but you can't really replace a fetcher of such quality with a basher)
7. ?? (really not sure here, schalk would be here if he wasn't injured, Stander or Coetzee I'd guess)
8. Spies (no other dedicated 8's who have really put out much of a claim out there)
9. Hougard (Duh)
10. Steyn (no Goosen means no question)
11. Habana (He's on form, works hard and is experienced, can't see him not being picked)
12. Frans Steyn
13. Juan de Jonge
14. Lwazi Mvovo (or at least I hope!)
15. Pat Lambie

I was gonna do the rest but I think I've made it fairly clear who the other choices are. I've probably missed tons of choices but the above is my best bet.

edit: Although I did here a rumour that Adriaan Strauss would captain the Springboks, If true I would feel sorry for Bismarc but i kinda get the decision.

I agree mostly but here are my changes;

1. Coenie Oosthuizen - stand out prop of the Super 15
2. B. du Plessis
3. J. du Plessis (agree)
4. Eben Etzebeth (agree)
5. Matfield - he needs to come back
6. Brussow
7. Coetzee
8. Spies
9. Hougaard
10. M. Steyn
11. JP Pietersen
12. F. Steyn
13. B. Habana
14. Mvovo
15. Joe Pietersen

Habana's future is in 13, at least try him out there against England. If it doesn't work out then go with Juan de Jonge, he is very good. I would give Joe Pietersen a chance based on form and the 10-12 combo worked really well in the world cup before F.Steyn got injured.

 

[SomeOke]

Who do you predict will be the 'left field' selection? IE the what-was-Meyer-thinking-as-there-is-no-plausible-base-for-this selection?

My bet is Zane Kirschner.

Olivier and Flip.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Who do you predict will be the 'left field' selection? IE the what-was-Meyer-thinking-as-there-is-no-plausible-base-for-this selection?

My bet is Zane Kirschner.

Alwyn Hollenbach

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Alwyn Hollenbach

Wow, I have to give it to you that is pretty far left field LOL.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Shoulders...

Did not see it but the spell checker did that part. But here is a cookie for being such a sharp bloke

I agree mostly but here are my changes;

1. Coenie Oosthuizen - stand out prop of the Super 15
2. B. du Plessis
3. J. du Plessis (agree)
4. Eben Etzebeth (agree)
5. Matfield - he needs to come back
6. Brussow
7. Coetzee
8. Spies
9. Hougaard
10. M. Steyn
11. JP Pietersen
12. F. Steyn
13. B. Habana
14. Mvovo
15. Joe Pietersen

Habana's future is in 13, at least try him out there against England. If it doesn't work out then go with Juan de Jonge, he is very good. I would give Joe Pietersen a chance based on form and the 10-12 combo worked really well in the world cup before F.Steyn got injured.

No Beast in there? You will have the sports minister catching a fit IMO

 

[Draggs]

How has Werner Kruger been getting on?
Jannie is a good player for us, but I don't think he is really up to par for an international.
Beast has been in great form since returning from injury, still going with him over Oosthuizen.

Habana at 13? If you want your openside wing to get no ball! Fourie leaving has caused a bit of a problem. Ebersohn, de Jongh, and Jordaan are all good talents, but have plenty to work on. I am told that Jan Serfontein is the future greatest centre by Bulls fans...

 

[TRF_heineken]

How has Werner Kruger been getting on?
Jannie is a good player for us, but I don't think he is really up to par for an international.
Beast has been in great form since returning from injury, still going with him over Oosthuizen.

Habana at 13? If you want your openside wing to get no ball! Fourie leaving has caused a bit of a problem. Ebersohn, de Jongh, and Jordaan are all good talents, but have plenty to work on. I am told that Jan Serfontein is the future greatest centre by Bulls fans...

Werner Kruger is going great IMO. the only guy who hasn't had an injury in the last 3 years... Hasn't missed a game the last and current season. He's my pick for the tighthead spot

 

[Draggs]

I thought he was quite a powerhouse last year. Wasn't so sure about Greyling, IIRC things didn't go great for them in the Tri Nations, but I didn't read much into the away performances.
Not seen much of the Stormers this season, but I have heard that their pack has actually not been too bad.

Bismarck and Strauss vying for hooker (add Chiliboy for fun), not a bad front row.
Second row seems pretty much set, Etzebeth and Bekker, with Kruger/van der Merwe on the bench. Bresler can feel hard done by to not be involved in some way.

Back row is pretty much see what works. I really don't want to see Spies at 8, as I have probably stated before. Alberts off the bench has proven to be a success, but Coetzee is pressing very hard for a spot in the 22.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I thought he was quite a powerhouse last year. Wasn't so sure about Greyling, IIRC things didn't go great for them in the Tri Nations, but I didn't read much into the away performances.
Not seen much of the Stormers this season, but I have heard that their pack has actually not been too bad.

Bismarck and Strauss vying for hooker (add Chiliboy for fun), not a bad front row.
Second row seems pretty much set, Etzebeth and Bekker, with Kruger/van der Merwe on the bench. Bresler can feel hard done by to not be involved in some way.

Back row is pretty much see what works. I really don't want to see Spies at 8, as I have probably stated before. Alberts off the bench has proven to be a success, but Coetzee is pressing very hard for a spot in the 22.

Bresler?? He's crap IMO, he did have a good game vs the Cheetahs though.

Back Row is a conundrum at the moment, so many young guns showing their brilliance, but whether they will make the step-up is still the question we want answered.

 

[Draggs]

I quite like Bresler. It has been tough for him, with him gettings shifted from starting, to bench, and out of the squad to accomodate Sykes, Hargreaves, Skeate, Mostert.

Brussow is a starter, so openside is sorted. Potgieter and Coetzee are certainly worth considering on the blindside. Deysel needs some more time to get match fit, but I think he could be an option.
No chance of Daniel getting selected, while Kankowski has been off injured for some time.