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So Eddie does the job in 3 months that Lancaster couldn't manage in 4 years.

TRF_Peat said:
Not so sure about that. Lancaster was talking up Itoje as a WC bolter in 2012 and came close to making good on that; very possible he'd have put Itoje in the 23 next tournament down the line. An unwillingness to back players he saw as great was never Lancaster's problem.

In fact, part of me thinks that given his superior knowledge of England's player base, he might have pushed the boat far more experimentally than Jones. We'll never know I guess.

Come to think of it... Jones is far from the first coach to come into a good collection of internationals, do things a little different, and get the result the last coach couldn't. Not all of the coaches who did that then went on to success, particularly when it came to time to put their own stamp on things. Time will tell. I still remain guarded about my optimism.

Crapspray - Clark was never part of Lancaster's 23.
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Fair enough, still uncovinced this would have happened with SL in charge
 
Eddie Jones is a rugby coach who's focus is totally on winnning games. Lancaster is a manger who had a vision about what he wanted England to be. In the end its a results business and all the soundbites and catchy slogans SL came up with mean **** all when you cannot win the important games and be overuled on selections by one of the players dads.
 
TRF_Peat said:
Crapspray - Clark was never part of Lancaster's 23.
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Sorry, lazy writing, should have been clearer: he falls under the "why is he consistently in the EPS if he never plays and is behind five or six other players?" category. Though Lancaster did finally get him one senior cap in the end. And took him to the World Cup ahead of Kvesic.

There doesn't seem to be that sort of deadwood kept in the squad at the moment. Fringe, young players like Devoto, Hill, etc. seem to have taken their place.
 
back2back said:
No, but I'm looking at the rest of the teams in the 6 Nations and their resources don't compare and Jones is really one of the best coaches the game has seen. Ireland have lost a talisman by their standards of McCaws stature and don't have nearly the depth or resources to appropriately replace him any time soon.
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Sorry? Jones is one of the best coaches the game has seen?

- he lost a RWC final

- he was an ASSISTANT when SA won

- he got a Japanese team to win one major game

There have been many more successful coaches than him on his record so far!

I am not, in no way, saying he might not become one of the greats but he has someway to go yet to show that to me!
 
TBF Japan won 3 out of 4 games in the pool a huge achievement and if not for short schedule maybe even 4 out of 4 (Debatable)

Won a super rugby ***le. (Although let's not mentioned his stint at the reds)
 
You know who else won a Grand Slam in his first year? Declan Kidney. It really means very little with regards to how Jones will pan out as a coach. Think Lancaster deserves a little credit for rotating so many of the current squad in during his tenure. That's not to belittle this English side who were pretty peerless this year. That's a pretty shocking reflection on the rest of us to be fair, but you can only beat what's in front of you. Let's hope the competition hits full blast next year and this years competition was just a World Cup hangover. That English side are pretty good, and they could do it again, but hopefully with stiffer competition and a few cracking games.
 
Crapspray said:
Sorry, lazy writing, should have been clearer: he falls under the "why is he consistently in the EPS if he never plays and is behind five or six other players?" category. Though Lancaster did finally get him one senior cap in the end. And took him to the World Cup ahead of Kvesic.

There doesn't seem to be that sort of deadwood kept in the squad at the moment. Fringe, young players like Devoto, Hill, etc. seem to have taken their place.
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Well Jones doesn't seem to rate Kvesic that much either, so can't be that big a sin... :p

More seriously; yes, he's come in and swept away some deadwood and replaced it with exciting young players. Just like Lancaster did with Johnson's squad. It's what coaches do.

The trick is to work out when you're building a pile of deadwood of your own and get rid of it, rather than being forced out so another man can. We'll see whether he can.

Although I think the sheer increase in player quality will probably result in a lesser pile. I think I'm on the record somewhere here as predicting back in 12/13 that the England squad wouldn't peak until about 2020, simply because that's when the best players would reach their peak. What I'm seeing only reinforces that and I think Jones should be more successful than Lancaster simply down to that fact alone.
 
TRF_Peat said:
Come to think of it... Jones is far from the first coach to come into a good collection of internationals, do things a little different, and get the result the last coach couldn't. Not all of the coaches who did that then went on to success, particularly when it came to time to put their own stamp on things. Time will tell. I still remain guarded about my optimism.
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For example, Robbie Deans.

Comes into the Wallabies team, wins his first five matches including vs South Africa and vs New Zealand. He was held up as the great redeemer, nicknamed "Aussie Rob" and "Dingo Deans". He was going to save Australian rugby.....and then it all went pear-shaped. That win over New Zealand was repeated only twice in the next four years and 17 matches. Poor old Robbie was undone by player-power and a lot of back-stabbing in the back rooms of the ARU, and by the time his contract was terminated, he had a 58% win rate which was better than any other team except New Zealand and South Africa over the same period. It was really only that low because of his team's inability to beat New Zealand (17%).

Then there was his replacement, Ewen McKenzie. He was going to save Wallaby rugby too (now that they had an Australian back at the helm) and he ended up lasting less than half the time, failed to beat New Zealand at all (a draw was his best result) and ended up with a worse record (50%) than Robbie.
 
Groundhog said:
You know who else won a Grand Slam in his first year? Declan Kidney. It really means very little with regards to how Jones will pan out as a coach. Think Lancaster deserves a little credit for rotating so many of the current squad in during his tenure. That's not to belittle this English side who were pretty peerless this year. That's a pretty shocking reflection on the rest of us to be fair, but you can only beat what's in front of you. Let's hope the competition hits full blast next year and this years competition was just a World Cup hangover. That English side are pretty good, and they could do it again, but hopefully with stiffer competition and a few cracking games.
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This is a very good point! The two years are pretty similar as well, both sides were far better than everyone else but struggled at times to seal the deal and needed a bit of luck, if they win that is better England sides have lost to worse opposition in grand slam deciders. He's had the perfect start but it's what happens now that counts, his team become easier to analyse every game they play so he needs to continue to adapt and grow, unlike poor auld Deccie.

It'll all come in a time of better opposition too, Wales and Ireland should be back next year, Scotland are no longer pushovers and France have a bit of structure if **** all else.
 
Tony Manx said:
Sorry? Jones is one of the best coaches the game has seen?

- he lost a RWC final

- he was an ASSISTANT when SA won

- he got a Japanese team to win one major game

There have been many more successful coaches than him on his record so far!

I am not, in no way, saying he might not become one of the greats but he has someway to go yet to show that to me!
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I wish I could forget Aussies domination over NZ during his tenure like you have. Eddie has many Kiwis, players and supporters respect and you sound spoiled diminishing his achievements like that.

- - - Updated - - -

You cant seem to win with Poms on these boards. You praise them and still get the same responses as though youre criticsing them. Sort yer attitudes out.
 
back2back said:
I wish I could forget Aussies domination over NZ during his tenure like you have. Eddie has many Kiwis, players and supporters respect and you sound spoiled diminishing his achievements like that.
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Say what?

Eddie Jones' Wallabies were about on a par with the All Blacks, they certainly did NOT dominate. Eddie's team won 5 of 11 matches aganst New Zealand... less than half



His Wallabies won the Tri-Nations only once during his tenure as did the Springboks. The All Blacks won it three times

Also, his overall win rate was 57%, slightly less than Robbie Deans.

I agree with Tony Manx (who, by the way, is not English). Eddie Jones is a good coach, but has done nothing special. He's not in the same league as international coaches such as SCW (much as I can't stand him), Graham Henry, Steve Hansen, Jake White, Nick Mallet or Marcelo Loffreda who achieved a 58% record with Argentina; no mean feat
 
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smartcooky said:
Say what?

Eddie Jones' Wallabies were about on a par with the All Blacks, they certainly did NOT dominate. Eddie's team won 5 of 11 matches aganst New Zealand... less than half



And his overall win rate was 57%, slightly less than Robbie Deans
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Pardon moi. Here I thought he was coach earlier. Probably why you shouldnt post of the top off your head and instead double check things. Apologies for the comments Manx.
 
back2back said:
Pardon moi. Here I thought he was coach earlier. Probably why you shouldnt post of the top off your head and instead double check things. Apologies for the comments Manx.
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I never take offence......well mostly not.......well sometimes not.......well often do actually!

But not this time.........!!
 
Smartcookie 5 wins out of 11 against NZ is unbelievable ! We (England) still talk about random wins we have every decade or so and unless you are Welsh and about 85 years old you will never have seen a Wales win . Also Ireland have never won against NZ . I'm not gonna step into where I rate jones in the best coaches ever but he always seems to do a good job where he goes and seems a knowledgable, clever coach who brings lots to the teams and makes a lot of good decisions . He's turned England into a team that couldn't win an important game to a team with a fair amount of mental steel (I won't say a lot of steel because we did our best to lose yesterday) in 10 weeks . We still have a long way to go but I'm over the moon with him at the moment

To be fair Eddie's longevity at the top of coaching is a testament to his ability by itself
 
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smartcooky said:
Also, his overall win rate was 57%, slightly less than Robbie Deans.

I agree with Tony Manx (who, by the way, is not English). Eddie Jones is a good coach, but has done nothing special. He's not in the same league as international coaches such as SCW (much as I can't stand him), Graham Henry, Steve Hansen, Jake White, Nick Mallet or Marcelo Loffreda who achieved a 58% record with Argentina; no mean feat
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That's a reductive way of evaluating coaches. Just reading win percentages and completely ignoring the players they had at their disposal or the opposition they faced.
 
psychic duck said:
That's a reductive way of evaluating coaches. Just reading win percentages and completely ignoring the players they had at their disposal or the opposition they faced.
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Exactly . It also doesn't tell you the pressure of the games . Lancaster has the second highest win percentage behind Clive as far as I'm aware but Lancaster's England ALWAYS lost the important games . I'd rather a coach like Gatland with a lower win rate but a higher number of pressure wins (obviously talking 6N wins here)
 
Maverick1987 said:
Exactly . It also doesn't tell you the pressure of the games . Lancaster has the second highest win percentage behind Clive as far as I'm aware but Lancaster's England ALWAYS lost the important games . I'd rather a coach like Gatland with a lower win rate but a higher number of pressure wins (obviously talking 6N wins here)
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Well yeah as you say ok for the 6N but in terms of the big 3.5 Gatlands record is woeful.
 

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