Scotland: The Next Step

[iINDOMINUSxx]

hey, guys this was a thread i was going to put up a while ago but i only got round to posting it now.

So Vern Cotter's impact. A 3 win 1 hammering tour. I would say only one shocker win which came our way is Scotland vs Argentina we dont usually beat the Argentinians and i felt they had a pretty strong squad on too. South Africa went horribly wrong with a game we shouldn't have played but we did. I started to think the squad was the wrong squad even if we had to select from 2 teams. Most off our number 8's were injured, i thought the clear option at 8 would be Richie Vernon, not injured or anything might be playing centre but has player a few games for scotland at 8 so he is experienced. but instead we give Adam Ashe a first cap but only played 2 games for glasgow and never started, do you really think a player like that should be faced up against a team like South Africa ?. i hate to look back at that game but realising our mistakes is the way forward.

So then i ask this question what do you think is the way forward for Scotland ?

 

[Big Ewis]

don't think a lot can be extracted from the past 3 tests, but if anything it's bad. They only barely beat Argie B-C, and that was awful close in Canada, and then a monumental pounding like that, despite missing guys in S.A. Vern Cotter can probably get more out of this squad, but just right now things are very mediocre, and rather on the bad side of things for Scotland undeniably. It's not terrible, but lots need to be done.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

and i do agree alot have been done i say the scots and the french are similar in rugby atm we have our good monents like Serge Blanco's france days and Gavin Hastings scotland days and are now struggling with thing, even thought france needs a new coach while scotland needs alot more. as we said before vern i believe will make an impact we just need to give him time.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Pah, the French situation is incomparable with the Scottish. The French have all the talent they need, they just don't pick the right players and can't get the ones they do pick to play cohesively. Scotland on the other hand are just muck. They simply don't have good enough players.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't think there is much that cna be done about Scotland. People often say England have no world class players, Scotland struggle to get just good players, let alone world class. I think the best we can expect from Cotter is for Scotland to stay the plucky underdogs, they simply don't have the talent and their U20's show there isn't any due to arrive either.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

there are 'talent' in scotland trust me, we do have players which can be very effective if they didn't play for scotland. as i said many times before scotland aren't lacking players they're lacking tactics they have no good attacking ability which we need from somewhere.

 

[ratsapprentice]

There is nothing to suggest that to be even remotely true.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think Scotland really need to focus on a good attacking Glasgow and Edinburgh. Then use the players that shine there internationally.

Unless you have a strong club game you arn't going to a strong international side. Who ever coaches Scotland really needs to work with Glasgow as a foundation and fees in others as and when ready.

They do have some class players (as do England now), but the players seem to crumble under pressure or don't have a robust game plan?

 

[Feicarsinn]

there are 'talent' in scotland trust me, we do have players which can be very effective if they didn't play for scotland. as i said many times before scotland aren't lacking players they're lacking tactics they have no good attacking ability which we need from somewhere.

How many Scottish players would make it into the Welsh, Irish, English or French sides? Looking at the side that faced us in the Six Nations I might take Hogg, Maitland (not with a fit and firing Tommy Bowe available though) and maybe Jim Hamilton. That's about it. I'd imagine Welsh and English posters would take similarly few players into their sides. Scotland are way behind all of the other traditional northern hemisphere sides in terms of the quality available to them , and you're codding yourself if you think otherwise.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

im sure you would take gordon reid for a replacement. im sure england wouldn't mind visser in they're team the welsh though mm.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

to any english users, how did Tom Heathcote do at bath ? he joined edinburgh and is only 22 is he any good

 

[ratsapprentice]

Heathcote is very good well rounded player - good kicking (at goal and tactical) good defense, good passing and running.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i actually watch the bath v gloucester game last year and heathcote looked like he played a good game, hopefully next year's six nation he get some games for scotland

 

[Groundhog]

im sure you would take gordon reid for a replacement. im sure england wouldn't mind visser in they're team the welsh though mm.

I shouldn't think so. Ridiculously well stocked at Loosehead.
Scotland have good players, but in the Scottish system it's really tough for them to actually hit any sort of decent form for internationals. It's clear that Scotland need a strong domestic game before they can compete in the 6N. While Glasgow were great in the Pro 12, they need to perform in Europe. Edinburgh are just in a bad state to be honest, and I can't see them going anywhere but backwards in the future. They need dolla bills and I don't know where they can get it. There's just not a strong enough rugby culture in Scotland at the moment.

 

[profitius]

For Scotland, a fully fit squad is needed. Its also important that Hogg sorts himself out because he is potentially world class.

The backline looks decent. Hogg, Visser, Matt Scott, Maitland are good players in the backline and they've a few good forwards as well like the Grays, etc. I was also impressed with no. 10 Finn Russell towards the end of the season. If Scotland can get the basics right (scrums, lineouts, defence) and get a cohesive attack then they'll be harder to beat. Thats Cotters job.

Having said that, getting the basics right requires talented players. Thats the challenge for Cotter. What Scotland should be looking for is to beat teams like Italy, Samoa etc.

 

[goodNumber10]

There is nothing to suggest that to be even remotely true.

Do you reckon? i think their tactics have been woefully wrong over the last few years in trying to be physical and confrontational in a way that doens't suit them.

They need to go back to simple rugby played at a pace - forgo the offloading game and 15 man rugby. I think Scotland have the kind of team that can play a fast low to the ground game they just aren't trying to do that.

 

[Big Ewis]

well hey wait a second, Scotland may not fill up 14 of 15 guys in the Lions starting lineup, but they don't have just a bunch of scrubs like people are suggesting here. I've agreed with Scotty, I feel the problem is in big part the coach. Scotland can do better than *that* 6N campaign we just saw.

They've got a young 15 as good as any virtually in Europe who likes to attack, along with any of Visser, Maitland, Evans or Lamont as specialist wingers for the back three. And those four guys ain't jokers.
Duncan Weir isn't a bad 10 and is still VERY YOUNG for a flyhalf and has already shown quality, to go along with a very good Laidlaw. I'm sure everybody agrees so far.
At center, Dunbar in particular caught my attention, but they could do with a big bulkier than Duncan Taylor, although both are still very young.
Up front, their front row has looked much better these past (about) two years, and big Geoff Cross seems to have benefited from the new scrum laws. Their scrum isn't a joke.
Their second row is alright, and they've got youth and real power in there.
They've got some depth in the backrow, and notably possess Kelly Brown, one heck of a flanker and a good captain, and David Denton is one beast of a no.8.
In terms of depth and the bench, they do have guys who can play at an acceptable test level, but probably lack a dynamic bench with guys who really add smt of their own.

This team right here shouldn't be the laughing stock of the 6N (bar Italy) and a team that nobody believes in heading into tests against Aus or SA, and yet they played so awfully they had the most chaotic French B squad you've - ever - seen - beat them at home and got smashed so easily 0-20 at home by England it's catastrophic to imagine it should've been by more.
With the proper mindset, motivation and discipline, these guys are clearly better than *this*...they're better than what we've seen, no doubt. Let's see what Cotter manages to do with them, but I think it's a work in progress and they might not be heaps better by November, but by the next 6N and WC I think they could show another face.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

but i still feel that edinburgh and glasgow could still help out. to making sure they're players are in great shape and at they're best fitness levels for the international tests. like i dont know who is our assistance coach now but i'd really like to see Gregor Townsend back doing something for the scotland team, or maybe Chris Patterson ? i'd say he'd make a good attack/back coach hopefully we'll get to see him doing that for scotland. there are still young sparks which still should get a chance in the scotland team eg. Mark Bennett etc. Duncan weir is P**S ewis, but there are 10 which have caught my eye which can be great for scotlands XV, Finn Russell is one definitely should be on the scotland gave facing south africa and argentina and Tom Heathcote after watching his performance when i was watching his highlights i felt he should be getting more chances in the scotland team then he is now but isn't Bath starting 10 so thank god he's at edinburgh, more game time and more chances i'd thought. Brown is good but i think he should move back to the blindside and play John Barclay at 7 and denton at 8 that is a back row i'd love to see on the teamsheet.

 

[Feicarsinn]

well hey wait a second, Scotland may not fill up 14 of 15 guys in the Lions starting lineup, but they don't have just a bunch of scrubs like people are suggesting here. I've agreed with Scotty, I feel the problem is in big part the coach. Scotland can do better than *that* 6N campaign we just saw.

They've got a young 15 as good as any virtually in Europe who likes to attack, along with any of Visser, Maitland, Evans or Lamont as specialist wingers for the back three. And those four guys ain't jokers.
Duncan Weir isn't a bad 10 and is still VERY YOUNG for a flyhalf and has already shown quality, to go along with a very good Laidlaw. I'm sure everybody agrees so far.
At center, Dunbar in particular caught my attention, but they could do with a big bulkier than Duncan Taylor, although both are still very young.
Up front, their front row has looked much better these past (about) two years, and big Geoff Cross seems to have benefited from the new scrum laws. Their scrum isn't a joke.
Their second row is alright, and they've got youth and real power in there.
They've got some depth in the backrow, and notably possess Kelly Brown, one heck of a flanker and a good captain, and David Denton is one beast of a no.8.
In terms of depth and the bench, they do have guys who can play at an acceptable test level, but probably lack a dynamic bench with guys who really add smt of their own.

This team right here shouldn't be the laughing stock of the 6N (bar Italy) and a team that nobody believes in heading into tests against Aus or SA, and yet they played so awfully they had the most chaotic French B squad you've - ever - seen - beat them at home and got smashed so easily 0-20 at home by England it's catastrophic to imagine it should've been by more.
With the proper mindset, motivation and discipline, these guys are clearly better than *this*...they're better than what we've seen, no doubt. Let's see what Cotter manages to do with them, but I think it's a work in progress and they might not be heaps better by November, but by the next 6N and WC I think they could show another face.

They're substantially worse than the other home nations. Yes they have a decent back three, but so do Ireland, England and Wales. In all other areas mentioned they're inferior. Duncan Weir over Sexton or Farrell? Come on. I'd have Biggar over him too. Laidlaw is a good player, but again this isn't an area of weakness for the sides around them. Murray and Care are just as good imo, while Philips can be very effective if he's got his head screwed on. I think their back row lags behind the others in Europe, the second rows are passable to good and their front row is still very poor.

This thread asks what the next step is for Scottish rugby, not to sugar coat all of Scotland's problems. They're a poor side. They need a far higher standard of player if they want to compete. Since 2010 Ireland, Wales, England and France have all won ***les. Scotland's best finish in that time frame is third in 2013, the only year they managed more than one win. Their under 20's have only won 4 Six nations games in the last 5 years. This isn't a management problem, this is a simple lack of players of a high enough standard.

What's the next step for Scottish rugby? Probably plundering the ITM and Currie Cup to try and find anyone with Scottish heritage that might help them cling on to some semblance of competitiveness while the SRU tries to save the game at underage level . And yes, I do see the irony of an Irish person saying this considering the IRFU's NIQ policy, but whereas a residency/heritage player is a nice bonus for us to have, they're going to be vital for the survival of the Scottish game.

 

[goodNumber10]

I really disagree with that, most Scottish players who have looked outside of Scotland have excelled for their club sides. The Scotland A team has turned over England Saxons for the last few years (iirc) so i really don't feel it's a quality of player issue when you look at the broader picture.

They have never been a team with 15 British Lions , they've always had a few very good players and a core of decent players and then built their game around that. That was Scotlands thing, it has always been about the fact that their style of play made use of their limited resources.

For me the issue has been coaches who don't understand the traditional Scottish strengths and tried to fit a square peg in a round hole, that's probably why some of their best victories of late have been in poor conditions when the game plan has been limited to around their natural aptitudes - low rucking game and kick chase rugby.