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SBW cleared to play in the EOYT regardless of ITM Cup participation
- Thread starter TRF Mr Fish
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...and Dave Rennie can't wait to have him back in Chiefs colours.
I hear all the bolocks on talkback about him (mostly from the haters) and the pasting he takes from certain haters in the media (Watto, I'm lookin' at you pal!!) then I listen to guys like Dave Rennie, Ian Foster, Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen talk about what he brings to their environment and their team culture.
I don't wonder about who knows best!
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http://www.radiosport.co.nz/news/sp...athan-harris-to-debut-v-south-africa---hansen
Hansen confirms he asked for SBW to be granted dispensation.
Hansen confirms he asked for SBW to be granted dispensation.
But Cookie, what you are ignoring is that most people don't seem to think he's a bad player. Of course most coaches would want him. It's the handling of him by the NZRU, making constant exceptions for a player which is clearly a luxury rather than a necessity, that people feel does more harm in the long run. I have heard nothing other than "but he's really good! We've already paid for him! It doesn't matter if we treat him differently than other players! You're just a hater!" - which seems to be ignoring the very basic reason people don't want him selected without playing. 6 minutes is farcical I agree, I'd rather he was selected for the June series next year after ITM and Super Rugby. It's really just a matter of earning - I don't feel he's done enough to just be entitled to an All Black jersey. It's these kinds of double standards that may well see a lot more players leaving in their prime and coming back every four years.
I find it amazing that people seem to just make out like the integrity of New Zealand's selection, something we make a big deal about, is less important than having a shiny new player come the EoYT..
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no wonder they say that...he's going to help them win!
the AB's are not NZ rugby. he will help the ab's win, no question. but when you see Richie and Dan both playing club rugby in their recoveries from injury i think you get a better idea of whats good for rugby.
i just dont see that the end of year tour is so important as to get exemptions for when we have more the capable guys in his position
i do start to think it must be me...i'm more than happy for him to come back to nz...i just want to see him play more
I'll leave it to nickdnz as he seems to be able to explain it better than i can
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Hansen obviously thinks he is a necessity or else he wouldn't care if he could tour or not. Whether you think he needs to play however many games to prove he is good enough is irrelevant, Hansen thinks he is good enough already.
As to the second point I've highlighted, how many players will be good enough to do that? There are only a handful of players that I can think of who could leave and come right back in. We have a good ability to replace players so I can't see this happening at all.
Well I guess we're going to lose this Rugby Championship. And we obviously didn't go unbeaten last year without him (thanks in part to a try in extra time by Crotty..). I think it would be very disingenuous to say SBW was a necessity. I'm sure he would be helpful, but like I have said I think it's Hansen and the NZRU looking to get a short-term benefit that will do harm in the long run, particularly when it comes to player retention. I guess what anyone thinks who isn't making selection decisions is irrelevant, doesn't stop supporters disliking decisions. Once again - whether he is good enough is not my point at all. Carl Hayman is good enough to be in the All Blacks, Nick Evans would have been super helpful come last RWC, Sivivatu was in the running for IRB player of the year - why didn't we select them? They were good enough. Because despite Carl Hayman being arguably the best TH prop in the world and NZ history, we didn't feel making selection exemptions for him are necessary (despite our scrum being arguably a much bigger issue than our midfield).
Sonny Bill Williams is a very good, very marketable player - but I genuinely don't feel anyone is being too precious or high and mighty, when they think he should be made to work to earn the All Black jersey. It's not a case of it rarely happens so it's not a problem, exceptions generally imply that it's not the norm, it's that exceptions happen at all, particularly when they are so unnecessary, that is what annoys people.
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Because they weren't contracted to NZ rugby for the next two years. That's the key difference. Like I said they could quite easily get around the rule by having him run on for the last play in a counties game. So the point that they're making special exemptions etc doesn't really hold water because they could get around it with no fuss at all.
Now the point you're making about him not having earned it is fair enough if that's your opinion - but if Hayman signed for NZ rugby for the next two years, and wasn't going to be back in time to play a meaningful part in ITM cup, would you have any issue with him going on the end of year tour this year?
We still could select them. If it's during an international test window. Choosing which rules we follow and which ones we break is arbitrary, integrity is integrity. I love Carl Hayman, but yeah I would have a problem if he came back and took the spot of Faumuina (who I don't really rate at all) after not playing meaningful ITM Cup and Super Rugby. As much as I like him as a player, selecting him sends the message to up and coming THs that if you're good enough you don't have to earn the jersey. I admit the fact that it's Sonny Bill Williams - someone who has a history of turning up, getting a medal and leaving - does probably make it worse for me, but it's honestly not the issue. Had Jerome Kaino not played so well in Super Rugby and instead turned up for the RC, I'd be annoyed as well, and I'm not a fan of sideways-running Messam either.
New Zealand rugby doesn't have the money to compete with other nations, particularly in keeping fringe players. All we really have is the message that if you stick around and earn less than going overseas, you may get the chance to be an All Black and play in a RWC. This message is like 'well we can't pay you what other countries could, but if you stick around and be loyal, we'll pay big money for a more valuable player to replace you regardless if he's played in New Zealand or not'.
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I want New Zealand to win the 2015 RWC and become the first team to win it back to back.
The men charged with achieving that goal are Steven Hansen and Ian Foster (along with Grant Fox, selector)
If Hansen and Foster want SBW, then as far as I am concerned they get him, whatever it takes. I am sure that Hansen wants as much time with SBW available to be in a Black jersey as he can get.
Nick, there are no June tours in 2015. We only have this end of year tour (four matches including one against the USA) and the six RC+ 3rd Bledisloe next year to get things sorted. SBW has already been signed to NZ rugby for two years, and Shag will already have some plans as to how he wants to use him. I don't think he will want to leave it until the RC to try any new stuff. That is probably why he has asked for the dispensation.
The men charged with achieving that goal are Steven Hansen and Ian Foster (along with Grant Fox, selector)
If Hansen and Foster want SBW, then as far as I am concerned they get him, whatever it takes. I am sure that Hansen wants as much time with SBW available to be in a Black jersey as he can get.
Nick, there are no June tours in 2015. We only have this end of year tour (four matches including one against the USA) and the six RC+ 3rd Bledisloe next year to get things sorted. SBW has already been signed to NZ rugby for two years, and Shag will already have some plans as to how he wants to use him. I don't think he will want to leave it until the RC to try any new stuff. That is probably why he has asked for the dispensation.
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I guess I interpret this a different way to you then. The message this sends to me is: if you commit to NZ rugby and are good enough then you will get selected. And I'm happy with that message.
Well cookie, that's not entirely the whole truth. Chances are we'll be playing Samoa next July in Apia (another odd decision by the NZRU) - just like we played Fiji in 2011...
The time frame for the tours haven't changed. As it is Sonny Bill Williams decided another season in the NRL was more important than playing Super Rugby to better prepare for the Rugby World Cup the following year. As it turns out he was 100% right, as playing in the NRL is just as good as playing Super Rugby according to the NZRU's decision. The 2015 RWC is important, but so is every World Cup after that. If ignoring selection protocol which is in place to protect the integrity of NZ rugby, was okay so long as we're closer to winning the next RWC - why didn't we call on Nick Evans in 2011 and Carl Hayman in 2015?
Yeah, except I'd argue commitment was more than signing a piece of paper...it's earning selection through playing well. But yeah, if turning up and walking straight into the All Blacks is commitment then we do have different interpretations.
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Do you not get the bit about SBW being contracted to the NZRU? If Evans was contracted in 2011 he most certainly would have been in the squad - likewise for Hayman in 2015. It isn't a like for like comparison.
Signing a piece of paper that means he will be playing his rugby in NZ for the next two years is commitment, I can't see how it isn't.
But the differences are arbitrary. Being contracted to the NZRU presumably means you are signed to a club, province and franchise. NZRU selection criteria means you have to play for one of them to be selected. Turns out you don't if the NZRU choose to ignore it. So if you don't have to play rugby in New Zealand short of making the All Blacks, why not select an overseas based player for an important RWC match? It's during the international window. The only restrictions are self-imposed ones, and since they are happy to ignore their own rules when it suits them, we may as well select overseas players. It's hypocrisy, and I'd be surprised if players didn't realize as much.
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I don't get why people have a problem with this... Not only Sonny Bill Williams is a freakishly talented athlete who the All Blacks will want handy come the World Cup, he's also an internationally famous athlete that transcends the sports he plays. I've met Americans who know stuff all about League or Union, but know who SBW is. So he'll add to the All Blacks already globally transcendent brand AND help their cause on the field.
Sure, they just kicked our butts, but the ABs are likely to face sterner tests than our unfortunately meek team offered last week in the year to come, and the NZRU will want all hands on deck in their bid to become the first ever nation to win back to back World Cups (and also break their duck overseas).
Sure, they just kicked our butts, but the ABs are likely to face sterner tests than our unfortunately meek team offered last week in the year to come, and the NZRU will want all hands on deck in their bid to become the first ever nation to win back to back World Cups (and also break their duck overseas).
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If someone was to be selected from an overseas club, play for the AB's for a game/tournament, then return again to their overseas club right after, I would be 100% against that. If they were to come in and play the game form overseas, then continue to play in NZ for a couple of years after - I wold have no problem with it. In one scenario you have committed to NZ rugby, in the other you haven't. If you can't see the difference then I can't help you.
Like I said, they could easily get him to trot out for Counties for 5 minutes, then he would have met the criteria. Does it make that much of a difference to you whether he does or not?
lol at all the people in here with an issue.
Look at the big picture, we want to win the world cup, going back to back would be epic.
If you can't understand that and the fact that he is a machine and offers so much on and off the field then you need to stop and have a long hard look at things.
Anyone comparing him to Nonu or Crotty needs to think about what they type also, those 2 together still don't come close, Hansen needs all the time he can with him to get him in the right frame of mind and get him slotted into the backline.
Look at the big picture, we want to win the world cup, going back to back would be epic.
If you can't understand that and the fact that he is a machine and offers so much on and off the field then you need to stop and have a long hard look at things.
Anyone comparing him to Nonu or Crotty needs to think about what they type also, those 2 together still don't come close, Hansen needs all the time he can with him to get him in the right frame of mind and get him slotted into the backline.
The big picture is the world cup but we will no doubt break it down into chunks, eg EOYT, Super 15 and RC.
The key thing for us to to ensure we give as many of our game breakers the time to get into the groove. Hansen must have a fair idea who he sees in the what role and a time table for that development.
I wish he would tell us some of it so we can stop speculating though lol, hooker and #7 would be nice to know.
The key thing for us to to ensure we give as many of our game breakers the time to get into the groove. Hansen must have a fair idea who he sees in the what role and a time table for that development.
I wish he would tell us some of it so we can stop speculating though lol, hooker and #7 would be nice to know.
