SANZAAR to cut 3 teams in 2018

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Sanzaar confirmed 3 teams will be cut (2 RSA, 1 AUS).
Wonder how the Cheetah's guy who said they were safe feels now.

Speculation: from what i've read, teh Cheetahs, the Kings and Force are first in line, which is odd since the Cheetah's are second in their group AND won the last edition of the CC and Force is ahead of the Rebels in the Australian conference.

 

[Durbanite]

The way I saw it broken down was winning margins, to be fair the Cheetahs do not have a stellar win ratio over the years, the Lions struggled but have started performing in recent years. Kings are obviously going to be cut.

since the introduction of the Kings in 2013
1. Lions 58.49% (played 53, won 31)
2. Stormers 57.35% (played 68, won 39)
3. Sharks 55.07% (played 69, won 38)
4. Bulls 53.03% (played 66, won 35)
5. Cheetahs 37.31% (played 67, won 25)
6. Kings 17.64% (played 34, won 6)

Pretty plain for the guys who decide who to cut from the tournament. If I had my way it would be kings + bulls heading home, Cheetahs deserve a few seasons where their best players aren't poached then maybe they can actually compete they have been stuck as a feeder franchise for far too long. Another question though is if the Lions can survive Ackermann leaving, will they still be as dangerous and improving? Either way, Sharks, Stormers and Bulls are the biggest bet to remain IMO. I'm surprised people would rather loose the force over the rebels: Aussies, what gives?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

As an outsider I think the most credible rumours I have heard are Kings, Cheetahs and Rebels cut, with Brumbies relocating to Melbourne. Melbourne has a population roughly the same as Scotland and NZ whereas Canberra is only 350,000.

I think this will be a bad decision in the medium to long term for SA and Oz rugby. SA because the Lions and now Stormers are already showing they can compete at the top level and therefore SA can support 6 teams and still compete for the ***le. Bad for Oz because they are living in another planet to me if they think they are magically going to compete with one or two less sides. Their best bet of regaining their standing internationally is long term investment in the big cities of Perth and Melbourne. Plus, if it reverts to round robin we can probably rule out seeing an Oz side in the playoffs for the next decade.

The Chiefs losing Cruden, Lowe and Rennie is a sign of things to come and increased European poaching will naturally bring the NZ clubs back into the clutches of the SA ones as Europe can now poach A rated NZ talent with the widening gulf in TV money. There was no need to cut teams to try and "level the playing field".

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Can't see the Brumbies moving Canberra is the capital and Brumbies have a big history.

Force is the obvious ones. Melbourne will survive due to the size i also think the Aus union has a complicated contract situation with the Rebels as well.


Sunwolves to Aus would be a great move IMO by SANZAAR. Also stop going to ****ing Singapore they don't care about the Wolves at least in tokyo they get a crowd and a atmosphere.

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Furk Matt Hodgson Press conference is heartbreaking.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/f...n/news-story/c99d78d4b4a814283ea83413cfc97c74

 

[Redcatstorm]

As an outsider I think the most credible rumours I have heard are Kings, Cheetahs and Rebels cut, with Brumbies relocating to Melbourne. Melbourne has a population roughly the same as Scotland and NZ whereas Canberra is only 350,000.

I think this will be a bad decision in the medium to long term for SA and Oz rugby. SA because the Lions and now Stormers are already showing they can compete at the top level and therefore SA can support 6 teams and still compete for the ***le. Bad for Oz because they are living in another planet to me if they think they are magically going to compete with one or two less sides. Their best bet of regaining their standing internationally is long term investment in the big cities of Perth and Melbourne. Plus, if it reverts to round robin we can probably rule out seeing an Oz side in the playoffs for the next decade.

The Chiefs losing Cruden, Lowe and Rennie is a sign of things to come and increased European poaching will naturally bring the NZ clubs back into the clutches of the SA ones as Europe can now poach A rated NZ talent with the widening gulf in TV money. There was no need to cut teams to try and "level the playing field".

No i don't agree with this, Australia simply doesn't have the depth of talent to break into 5 professional teams and compete with NZ and SA even 4 is a stretch but still doable, the sport is simply bigger in those countries while it sits 5th or 6th on the rung in Australia currently.

By condensing into 4 clubs the top players from the force or rebels will go to the other clubs improving both their top end and depth, also it will mean more International players playing together for entire club seasons getting better combinations and understanding.

I know you are thinking that reducing the clubs will reduce the amount of talent that can come through, the problem is that their is no talent to come through.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I mean Aus hasn't exactly benefited from having 5 teams have they.

Would be a shame to lose the force as they have actually developed local talent though.

 

[mdaclarke]

I can understand the Australians Losing 1 team but I don't understand the South Africans losing teams. I think the Kings useless at the moment but the other teams are all worth their place are still competitive and the Kings will improve.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I can understand the Australians Losing 1 team but I don't understand the South Africans losing teams. I think the Kings useless at the moment but the other teams are all worth their place are still competitive and the Kings will improve.

SA are in the same boat as Aus IMO.

Having the extra team hasn't exactly improved the International team.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Oz sides can hire more foreign players to make themselves competitive in the short to medium term until local talent. The problem with cutting out a city of 2 or 5 million people from Super Rugby is to me a far bigger issue than whether the top Oz side finishes 9th or 11th in the log.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Oz sides can hire more foreign players to make themselves competitive in the short to medium term until local talent. The problem with cutting out a city of 2 or 5 million people from Super Rugby is to me a far bigger issue than whether the top Oz side finishes 9th or 11th in the log.

Aus can't afford to be buying Foreign players on the whole. they are struggling to keep home grown talent as is. The Rebels have sort of tried to do it that way but hasn't worked out so far.

 

[Redcatstorm]

Oz sides can hire more foreign players to make themselves competitive in the short to medium term until local talent. The problem with cutting out a city of 2 or 5 million people from Super Rugby is to me a far bigger issue than whether the top Oz side finishes 9th or 11th in the log.

You don't understand the Australian sporting landscape, the local talent will never be their for the force or rebels for that matter.

They are AFL strongholds and all the top athletic talent funnels into AFL, rugby will never make a dent on it not when the AFL has billions of dollars to keep grass roots strong.

80-90% of Australia's rugby talent comes out of the Sydney and Brisbane private school systems.

Stephen Moore- Brisbane Grammar School (QLD)
James Slipper- The Southport School (QLD)
Will Genia- Brisbane Boy's College (QLD)
Rob Simmons- The Southport School (QLD)
Quade Cooper- Brisbane State High School (QLD)
David Pocock- Anglican Church Grammar School (QLD)
Michael Hooper- St Pius X College (NSW)
Dean Mumm- The Kings School (NSW)
Nick Phipps- The Kings School (NSW)
Bernard Foley- St Aloysius College (NSW)

these are the players in our current squads top 15 most capped players, not including Folau who is a League developed player, Kuridrani who is from Fiji, and Kepu who is from NZ.

So can you see not only is the talent restricted to only QLD and NSW it is further restricted in that it is only played at the elite private school level, and that same level of private schools in Perth and Melbourne play Australian rules football not rugby and that is never going to change.

the Force have been in Perth for over a decade and have made next to no headway into creating top end local talent, because the talent don't wont to play the sport they want to play AFL it's part of the culture of West Australia, South Australia, Victoria, Tasmania.

Qld and NSW provide nearly all the Rugby players in Australia and both those states actually like Rugby League way way more.


[h=1][/h]

 

[mdaclarke]

You don't understand the Australian sporting landscape, the local talent will never be their for the force or rebels for that matter.

They are AFL strongholds and all the top athletic talent funnels into AFL, rugby will never make a dent on it not when the AFL has billions of dollars to keep grass roots strong.

80-90% of Australia's rugby talent comes out of the Sydney and Brisbane private school systems.

Stephen Moore- Brisbane Grammar School (QLD)
James Slipper- The Southport School (QLD)
Will Genia- Brisbane Boy's College (QLD)
Rob Simmons- The Southport School (QLD)
Quade Cooper- Brisbane State High School (QLD)
David Pocock- Anglican Church Grammar School (QLD)
Michael Hooper- St Pius X College (NSW)
Dean Mumm- The Kings School (NSW)
Nick Phipps- The Kings School (NSW)
Bernard Foley- St Aloysius College (NSW)

these are the players in our current squads top 15 most capped players, not including Folau who is a League developed player, Kuridrani who is from Fiji, and Kepu who is from NZ.

So can you see not only is the talent restricted to only QLD and NSW it is further restricted in that it is only played at the elite private school level, and that same level of private schools in Perth and Melbourne play Australian rules football not rugby and that is never going to change.

the Force have been in Perth for over a decade and have made next to no headway into creating top end local talent, because the talent don't wont to play the sport they want to play AFL it's part of the culture of West Australia, South Australia, Victoria, Tasmania.

Qld and NSW provide nearly all the Rugby players in Australia and both those states actually like Rugby League way way more.


[h=1][/h]

Shame really as Rugby Union is a far superior sport to both Rugby League and Australian Rules Football.

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Did a quick look on wikipedia (I'm sad, I know) but there are over 100 New Zealanders over 100 South Africans over 50 Australians and over 20 Argentines playing in the Aviva Premiership, Top 14 and Pro 12. There is plenty of talent, it is keeping it that is the problem

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

You don't understand the Australian sporting landscape, the local talent will never be their for the force or rebels for that matter.

They are AFL strongholds and all the top athletic talent funnels into AFL, rugby will never make a dent on it not when the AFL has billions of dollars to keep grass roots strong.

80-90% of Australia's rugby talent comes out of the Sydney and Brisbane private school systems.

Stephen Moore- Brisbane Grammar School (QLD)
James Slipper- The Southport School (QLD)
Will Genia- Brisbane Boy's College (QLD)
Rob Simmons- The Southport School (QLD)
Quade Cooper- Brisbane State High School (QLD)
David Pocock- Anglican Church Grammar School (QLD)
Michael Hooper- St Pius X College (NSW)
Dean Mumm- The Kings School (NSW)
Nick Phipps- The Kings School (NSW)
Bernard Foley- St Aloysius College (NSW)

these are the players in our current squads top 15 most capped players, not including Folau who is a League developed player, Kuridrani who is from Fiji, and Kepu who is from NZ.

So can you see not only is the talent restricted to only QLD and NSW it is further restricted in that it is only played at the elite private school level, and that same level of private schools in Perth and Melbourne play Australian rules football not rugby and that is never going to change.

the Force have been in Perth for over a decade and have made next to no headway into creating top end local talent, because the talent don't wont to play the sport they want to play AFL it's part of the culture of West Australia, South Australia, Victoria, Tasmania.

Qld and NSW provide nearly all the Rugby players in Australia and both those states actually like Rugby League way way more.


[h=1][/h]

I think you are mistaking ineptitude by the Oz union to nurture talent and engage the public with a cast iron excuse to withdraw from markets of massive potential. There is not a 100% physical crossover between ideal body types for AFL, NRL and Super Rugby. Of course it makes it harder for Super Rugby clubs to compete for crossover talent but in cities of 2 and 5 million with Perth and Melbourne there is plenty of physical specimens to choose from and the physical priorities of AFL (e.g. a big boot and vertical leap) are only a small facet of union play.

I think talent from nations like Georgia, Argentina and now Brazil would cost buttons and improve squad depth.

And they are still retaining conferences (correctly in opinion) so this will do nothing to reduce the media clamour of "I can't understand four conference tables"!

You all make fair points, they just aren't ones I think outway retreating at a time when rugby globally is proving increasingly popular.

Let's flip this around. What do those in favours of this development expect to be the benefit next year? An Oz side that is better than the worst NZ side? An Oz side in the semis? An SA champion? I'd be interested in folks predictions of the improvements that will arise in the short, medium and long term from this move. What can we expect from it?

 

[Redcatstorm]

I think you are mistaking ineptitude by the Oz union to nurture talent and engage the public with a cast iron excuse to withdraw from markets of massive potential. There is not a 100% physical crossover between ideal body types for AFL, NRL and Super Rugby. Of course it makes it harder for Super Rugby clubs to compete for crossover talent but in cities of 2 and 5 million with Perth and Melbourne there is plenty of physical specimens to choose from and the physical priorities of AFL (e.g. a big boot and vertical leap) are only a small facet of union play.

I think talent from nations like Georgia, Argentina and now Brazil would cost buttons and improve squad depth.

And they are still retaining conferences (correctly in opinion) so this will do nothing to reduce the media clamour of "I can't understand four conference tables"!

You all make fair points, they just aren't ones I think outway retreating at a time when rugby globally is proving increasingly popular.

Let's flip this around. What do those in favours of this development expect to be the benefit next year? An Oz side that is better than the worst NZ side? An Oz side in the semis? An SA champion? I'd be interested in folks predictions of the improvements that will arise in the short, medium and long term from this move. What can we expect from it?

you also need to understand that Rugby Australia is flat broke, globally rugby might be more popular but in Australia it has never been less so even soccer has gone past it.

At this point it is my opinion that Rugby Australia needs to shelve ideas of expanding the game and really knuckle down and focus on keeping its heartland which has almost complete evaporated, because the expansion west has so far failed and they are starting to lose ground in areas where they used to be strong.

This is what i think people aren't getting rugby is dying in Australia, they NEED the Waratahs and Reds to be good when those two teams are up and about they pull in huge crowds and get the support of the community behind them but outside of AFL clubs Australian sports fans are fickle. The reds went from 36,000 members and averaging crowds almost 32,000 in 2013 to last year when they averaged just over 15,000 to their games, more than anywhere else south east Queensland is the life blood of Australian Rugby and they are flat out losing it AFL has brought in a new team and League is talking about another team in Brisbane.

How can you focus on expansion when you are losing your heartland, it's madness.

 

[Larksea]

I think dropping teams is a bad idea. Its easy to drop teams but so much harder to create and add them back again.

I think the one sided nature of NZ vs AU rugby over the last decade is turning Aussies away from rugby, interest and participation in rugby peaked in Australia around 2003 and seems to declining ever since once Graham henry was made AB coach and the modern era of NZ's strength began... I think to turn it around they need to target the league U20's, there are a lot of talented kids that don't get picked up by clubs when they pass the age cutoff to play U20's, and they end up playing non-pro club league and trying to crack the NRL from the outside. ARU must find a way to lure some of these guys into Rugby. Be able to offer them professional contracts to learn and play rugby. It cant be that hard, Union is a much bigger game globally than League.

I don't see targeting U20s as an underhanded tactic. NRL clubs target NZ's school rugby system heavily.

Bottom line, if AU keep their teams it gives them a platform to develop and recover the game. Cut teams and they may never recover.

 

[Car]

I'm surprised people would rather loose the force over the rebels: Aussies, what gives?

The Rebels are privately owned, so it might cost quite a lot of money to axe them. Money they don't have.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I am on the fence.

In terms of competition format; symmetry of conferences (since we are stuck with them it seems) and more concentrated quality I like the idea of cutting some fat. It makes for a better product. I can understand keeping the 'Wolves despite them being another feeding team in the Aus conference and despite the travel and additional time difference (Jags) and again, more travel, the Jags add a lot of 'flavor' to SR like they do with the RC. I think dropping the conferences and in-conference return matches and not teams per se and having a 17 week round-robin would've been even better but oh, well, S15 was better than what we've had since. I don't buy that conferences makes the travel factor less impactful. The Stormers are still going on a 3 week NZ tour. It was 4 in the past but now its on the back of having to have traveled to Argentina and back and Singapore and back. Overall though as an entertainment product, as a rugby product.. better. I don't actually think only having 4 teams will hurt the Bokke. At least not short term or any more than any of our other 15 issues. As is the Cheetahs and Kings won't contribute any players to the Bokke in any case. The Cheetahs can't afford to pay their players and neither can the Kings for other reasons. If anything, less mouths to feed might be good for us. Might be we can keep 1, max 2 additional test players. Our big 4 can always raid the Cheetahs after CC rather than SR. I am hoping this will also place greater import on the Currie Cup.

On the other hand. Will it fix all the issues SR has? No. The strnegth of teams ebb and flow. Its difficult to predict and it also takes time for new teams to find their feet. This culling of teams feels very much knee-jerk. What we are effectively saying is this is it then. These 15 teams are it. Right? Otherwise, why take a step 'back' at all? Personally I am hoping for a 2nd tier competition. We saw the Lions dropped in 2013 (was it?) only to come back and be SA's best bet at a ***le 2 years after re-entering. Ebbs and flows. SO much investment. The Lions had to beg for games the year they were out. It seems only natural the Cheetahs, Kings and Force/Rebels should play each other (assuming the franchiases intend to stay put in some form). Surely they can find other teams. Why not make it semi-official as a 2nd tier and allow for some form of promotion/relegation to keep the top tier on their feet and to protect an existing investment all while creating the perfect vehicle for expansion without hurting the integrity of the pinnacle product. To do that though you'd have to scrap the conferences eventually IMO and do away with the preferential placements of SA, NZ and Aus teams for the top 3 spots long term.

 

[CocoPampas]

Ok. Now is oficial!
Should be a lot of people happy out there. Although some other must be still complaining due to the conferences system still being in place.
I still don't know if I'm actually happy about this.

I think that the 3 teams that will be kicked off are evident. Bye Bye Kings, Cheetahs and Force.
SARU and ARU are currently spending mony on Kings and Force, while Cheetahs is the only "logic" next option.
IMHO, the cheetahs cut is the harder to process. They are paying all the cost of keeping the Sunwolves.

The "new" conferences system is a good option to fulfill some of the complains about the current format, but keeping the conferences (reducing the travel and guaranteeing one finals' spot for each of the principal countries). And yes, they need to guaranteed one QF spot if the want to keep ARU and SARU in the same boat.

The big problems here are:
- how the south african public will manage the big punch of losing 2 teams (one of them with decent performance) while the Sunwolves are still out there, and the ARU lost only one.
- How the Autralian public will manage to loose a team and still not be able to compete againg New Zeland teams (at least in the short term).
- How in the hell will the Sunwolves be able to compete and gain interest against these reinforced teams, whithout any other weak team around them.

Of course the 3 points are about people giving up with the competition, and therefore the SANZAAR losing money in the process.

 

[Larksea]

I cant help but feel like the Rebels really upset the whole Aussie conference system. they came along and over a few years lured a bunch of talent from the other aussie teams, a lot of aussies top players have moved around a lot and a fair bit of that is because of the Rebels. They looked to be building and becoming contenders after attracting some big names then most of them jumped ship this year and they are stuck at the bottom of the table again.

 

[mdaclarke]

I just hope the ANC don't get involved and cause problems by trying to strongarm the SARU to keep the Kings.