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[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

Well time to look towards what we are going to do next. The single worst thing SB can do is what Jones did for 2 years after 2019 and make no changes whatsoever, keeping the same underperforming players for game after game. Some of the England squad surely have played their last England game.

A full reshuffle of the coaching staff is required. If Borthwick stays then he needs to be surrounded with highly skilled assistants, not more low experience ones.
 
Well time to look towards what we are going to do next. The single worst thing SB can do is what Jones did for 2 years after 2019 and make no changes whatsoever, keeping the same underperforming players for game after game. Some of the England squad surely have played their last England game.

A full reshuffle of the coaching staff is required. If Borthwick stays then he needs to .be surrounded with highly skilled assistants, not more low experience ones.

Age, and France, should take care of that. From last night alone the whole front row, Lawes, Farrell, Manu, May and Care are all 32+ with Daly, Ford, Binny and Sinckler also beyond 30.

There's been a lot of criticism of the pathways but with the exception of a couple of positions talent is still coming through. It's about harnessing it, which is where the experienced coaching team comes into it.
 
Well time to look towards what we are going to do next. The single worst thing SB can do is what Jones did for 2 years after 2019 and make no changes whatsoever, keeping the same underperforming players for game after game. Some of the England squad surely have played their last England game.

Surely he doesn't have a choice in this regard. I read the ages between the 23 of the two teams last night was something like 29.6 and 30.1. With those sorts of numbers surely you have a fair number of players retiring that will cause a reshuffle.

I do feel Borthwick's hand would've been forced before this World Cup anyway. You can't come in 18 months before the WC and then try to blood in a whole lot of new talent for your WC campaign. With the time constraint he would have had to work with the squad that they had
 
Age, and France, should take care of that. From last night alone the whole front row, Lawes, Farrell, Manu, May and Care are all 32+ with Daly, Ford, Binny and Sinckler also beyond 30.

There's been a lot of criticism of the pathways but with the exception of a couple of positions talent is still coming through. It's about harnessing it, which is where the experienced coaching team comes into it.
The difference between say England and Ireland and the comparative rebuilds. Is that players you mentioned barring Farrel and Lawes have not regularly started for Eng over the past WC cycle.
Therefore replacing them should be more straightforward. Much more difficult when said players are the bedrock of your team and systems/tactics have been built around them
This just isn't the case with this cohort. We could swap 4/5 of those out in one go and not really feel much difference.
 
I don't think SA played well at all in this game. They were sloppy, making mistakes and really struggled to get going. England just had a moment of defensive error and it cost them a lot it seems. Awful way to bow out.
They perhaps have let lot of mental and physical energy against Les bleus.
 
Unlucky England. If I knew SA were not going to bother turning up I wouldn't have watched it but it turned out alright in the end.

Wales and England battling it out for 4th/5th next 6N with rugby stuck in 2008.
 
In hindsight….

The Boks were poor. Maybe our performance surprised them, maybe they were looking ahead to next week, maybe we didn't let them play well, but they were poor. This was a big chance and after 50 minutes I was feeling pretty relaxed. But Borthwick feels like one of rugby's nearly men so there was always a suspicion that something might go wrong.

Yes, we smashed into them, pride, passion etc. Big question about where the hell that's been for the last 3 years. But this was a World Cup semi final, if you can't be bothered to get out of bed for that, when will you? Absolute minimum requirement, but met.

Conditions meant it was always going to be a simple game plan. Borthwick deserves credit for the Cole, Marler and Martin selections and Steward put to bed most of the nonsense around him. May and Daly chased and competed well. Itoje and Faz reminded us of what they can do. Back row competed hard, Mitchell came out in credit. Didn't really notice Manu much, Marchant was competitive. Disappointed in George who I thought had a fairly average tournament overall.

Where Borthwick got it wrong….

Binny. His instincts of months ago were right. Shouldn't have been anywhere near the squad and certainly shouldn't have been involved last night. We needed intensity - Ludlam or Underhill would've brought that.

Props. Sinckler and Genge (should've stayed at Tigers) are poor imitations of what they were / could be. Not good enough and it cost us. In the rebuild he should put maximum emphasis on scrummaging and nothing else. Rodd and Stuart weren't used and were wastes of places. If VRR and Schonert / Collier are our best scrummagers they should have been on the plane to give options.

Selection of, and then lack of trust in, Dan and Walker. His lack of experience and modest stature meant that Dan was actually a bit of a reckless gamble. I think Borthwick maybe eventually realised that. McGuigan should have been on the plane to take some of the pressure off George.

Let's get the pack sorted before we start worrying about the backs. But age / France will mean that unit starts looking different fairly quickly.

As a wrap up, I remain largely unconvinced by Borthwick and his coaching team. But, if there were doubts, last night will have secured his future. At the end of the day we beat a load of lower ranked teams and lost to a higher ranked one we'd put ourselves in a position to beat. Not disastrous, far from stunning. Kind of par.

There's a big rebuild coming. Let's see how Borthwick handles that. His excuses window is now closed.
Very true, the game we played was equivalent to Mourinho in Football.
Bring the opposition down to our level, by scrapping hard and pressure. There was no attempt to create, maybe due to weather but typical of SB.

We could all see his selection mistakes, as though he had a squad in mind and then injuries and form left him struggling to find alternatives.
Binny being prime example, LCD another (injury).
 
England get 10/10 for effort, but your only kidding yourself if you rate much beyond that.

Anyone think the gameplan would have changed if it had been a bone dry day?

South Africa were terrible, yet England couldn't conjour up one iota of play to put the game to bed.

I suppose given the time Borthwick has had with the squad, expecting a near complete gameplan is unrealistic - but thats a million miles away from the NZ game 4 years ago.

I see more than a few (English posters) on the forum realise that - I see others getting blinded by the closeness of the scoreboard.
 
Disgusting decision by O'Keefe for that final penalty. 78 minutes of effort undone by that…

Also reports coming out that Mbonambi racially abused Tom Curry in the first half.
 
They perhaps have let lot of mental and physical energy against Les bleus.
That's what I thought yesterday just from the beginning. Honestly, I had an impression that they were already tired in the match with France and spent their last energy there
 
How on earth have we lost after leading for 78 mins,won't be getting over this until next World Cup. Feels like the botched George line-out really cost us;also not having that ambition to go for tries. We haven't scored one against them for 20 years now
Defiantly scored tried against South Africa in the last 20 years.
 
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