• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

[RWC2023 QF3] England vs Fiji (15/10/2023)

Unsurprisingly Haskell and Tindall sticking up for Farrell.

"He's got over 100 caps" …and?

"He's the record points scorer" … yeah, cause he kicks.

When Haskell goes off on a "be kind" rant, I get the feeling it with a caveat of "to famous people, the rest of you scumbags can **** off"

Oh, and Shane Horgan thinks that the Farrell hate is a class thing what with Farrell coming from a poor working class family.
Do you not think the criticism and personal insults Farrell receives are wrong?..it's more a reflection of society and social media etc nowadays than class I think(although I have seen comments about Owen being from the north etc which is normally harmless banter but there's a venom to it with Owen).People today believe they have a right to insult and belittle people with no consequences for themselves 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
 
Smith will almost certainly do well in open field, but he doesn't yet know the position properly, the instinct can't yet be there. Fractions of a second will start to matter. It's not like he's a back 3 player swapping positions, he's been at 10 his whole career, it's a different skillset.

Maybe this is planned as a one off? He might get away with inexperience against Fiji but look at the prospective semi opponents. In different ways both could make him look very silly. The guy's a genuine talent, are we really going to risk chucking him under the bus and shattering his confidence?
I'm fairness to Borthwick, I'd say that is very possibly the case. His selections with England have consistently raised eyebrows and have often been off beam. However, at Tigers he regularly took a horses for courses approach which I think he's applying for this match.

A kicking game isn't Fiji's forte. They're unlikely to rain bombs on Smith and TBH, it's not as though Steward has covered himself in glory from a positioning POV or defending players ball in hand so I'm not sure we're really losing that much in defence.

This is probably a big stretch, but what if SB's plan is putting Smith at 15 to encourage Fiji to kick and focus on what they're less good at? I don't actually think that would be the case, but if they did abandon their DNA and it becomes more of a kicking contest, I think we win every time.
 
Smith will almost certainly do well in open field, but he doesn't yet know the position properly, the instinct can't yet be there. Fractions of a second will start to matter. It's not like he's a back 3 player swapping positions, he's been at 10 his whole career, it's a different skillset.

Maybe this is planned as a one off? He might get away with inexperience against Fiji but look at the prospective semi opponents. In different ways both could make him look very silly. The guy's a genuine talent, are we really going to risk chucking him under the bus and shattering his confidence?
I know what you're saying. Fullback does take time to get spot on right, and there is a trade off here. Either a solid and experienced FB with no counter attacking ability, speed, or game management, but good under the high ball etc. or added game management, counter attack threat, but possibly some weakness in D and under the high ones. For me, Steward never winning you a game, where as Smith is.

As for confidence. He's a pro player. He should have the mental fortitude to take his chances, and if it doesn't work out bounce back. He knows it's not his favoured position, but I'm sure he'll take his chance and enjoy every minute of game time he gets.
 
Do you not think the criticism and personal insults Farrell receives are wrong?..it's more a reflection of society and social media etc nowadays than class I think(although I have seen comments about Owen being from the north etc which is normally harmless banter but there's a venom to it with Owen).People today believe they have a right to insult and belittle people with no consequences for themselves 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
When you read through this forum, what 'personal insults' do you see relating to Farrell as a person? I see plenty of criticism of his individual performances, but not insults. A lot of it is also criticism for the coaches for shoehorning him in to the side even if it's not he right thing to do.
 
When you read through this forum, what 'personal insults' do you see relating to Farrell as a person? I see plenty of criticism of his individual performances, but not insults. A lot of it is also criticism for the coaches for shoehorning him in to the side even if it's not he right thing to do.
Was Haskell referring to this forum?
 
Someone mentioned it above, but could you imagine the wing pairing of Watson and Arundel? That would have been great, but I guess we will never see it now.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Smith is only starting 15 against Fiji as we're not worried by their kicking game. I think we may try to play with some pace, but the lack of arundell would have been better.

Supposedly Daly is to start at 13 with Marchant on the wing?
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Smith is only starting 15 against Fiji as we're not worried by their kicking game. I think we may try to play with some pace, but the lack of arundell would have been better.

Supposedly Daly is to start at 13 with Marchant on the wing?
WHAT?! How can that be right? Marchant has been tearing up in midfield and is his much preferred position. If BS has dropped a perfectly good wing in Arundel because Faz had had a tantrum, then the least he can do is not F about with other members of the squad as well.
 
What's your ideal version of success?
Realistically, from this RWC I hope we win on Sunday and meet France in the semi. I wouldn't expect to win (based on our performances over the past couple years) but I'd like to see a clear game plan and the ability to do the basics to a decent standard. Then stuff Argentina in the bronze match.
Longer term, I'd expect SB's 2024 six nations squad to include, and develop, some of the promising talent that we have coming through the age groups with a large number of the current squad dropped. The players need to have higher fitness levels than they have at the moment and we need to perform the basics consistently and to a much higher level. Our players should be encouraged to play what's in front of them and play without the fear that's enveloped them over the past three years or so.
Don't get me wrong, I never expect to see pretty rugby from SB, but I want England to always be in serious contention for every match in every competition.
 
Do you not think the criticism and personal insults Farrell receives are wrong?. It's more a reflection of society and social media etc nowadays than class I think(although I have seen comments about Owen being from the north etc which is normally harmless banter but there's a venom to it with Owen).People today believe they have a right to insult and belittle people with no consequences for themselves 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
We're allowed to critique a player with 100 caps, just because he's been good in the past and is England's record scorer doesn't mean he should be void of criticism. We don't want him to play a loose game, but he can't even execute the basics, and the game has changed throughout his career and he's struggled to reach those levels.

That's a fair comment right?. It's not personal. It's definitely not about 'class' as Haskell puts it. I wish Farrell was awesome as a player as his mentality is spot on. Unfortunately he is, in general England rugby fan consensus, not good enough right now.

I know you want to bite every time someone mentions Farrell, and expect us to back England no matter what. It's getting tiresome in match threads atm imo.
 
Do you not think the criticism and personal insults Farrell receives are wrong?
Insults? Yes.
Criticism? No.

If you can't handle criticism I'd say professional sport probably isn't for you.
I'd also say Farrell ignores 100% of public opinion.

It was also reasoned that "Farrell takes all the blame" when the rest of the team are off form. Whereas I feel that him getting moved from one position to another while the rest of the team get subbed off gives the impression that Borthwick thinks he should take none of the blame.

Ultimately the criticism should be directed at the coaches for continuing to pick him, or refusing to sub him when things aren't working…. "Well it can't be Owen, he has over 100 caps and is England's top points scorer"
 
If Smith is named at 15 I think SB would have dropped a clanger and caved to public pressure.

Fiji is the ideal opposition for Steward. They have kicked far more in this RWC than anyone expected, and have adopted a very traditional European game plan, sprinkled with ball carrying brutality and offloading flair.

I expect it to rain on Smith all day if he gets a start, and I think England then give Fiji an option to control the match by keeping England in the back foot. Now I'm not saying Fiji win, but what I am saying is that if Fiji kick well, and put players under Smith Fiji get a hell of a lot of territory and ball, and when they get that they score points.
 
Insults? Yes.
Criticism? No.

If you can't handle criticism I'd say professional sport probably isn't for you.
I'd also say Farrell ignores 100% of public opinion.
I'd disagree with that.I think the fact players like Haskell are coming out in support of Farrell shows it's becoming an issue for Farrell.Haskell refers to it as bullying in the piece and I wouldn't disagree.most people are affected by bullying especially on a large scale like Farrell is receiving.
 
I'm fairness to Borthwick, I'd say that is very possibly the case. His selections with England have consistently raised eyebrows and have often been off beam. However, at Tigers he regularly took a horses for courses approach which I think he's applying for this match.

A kicking game isn't Fiji's forte. They're unlikely to rain bombs on Smith and TBH, it's not as though Steward has covered himself in glory from a positioning POV or defending players ball in hand so I'm not sure we're really losing that much in defence.

This is probably a big stretch, but what if SB's plan is putting Smith at 15 to encourage Fiji to kick and focus on what they're less good at? I don't actually think that would be the case, but if they did abandon their DNA and it becomes more of a kicking contest, I think we win every time.

I think that's stereotyping a bit.

It's not an either / or equation.

Fiji are much more professional than they were. If you're in their shoes you're seeing a small, inexperienced FB and a wing (if Daly plays there) who's notoriously average under the high ball. While they won't totally tear up their usual game plan, of course they're going to test them out and if they get some joy we may see more kicking than usual.

If it is a horse for course selection it's a very mixed message for Steward ahead of a potentially demanding game against excellent opposition. 'You're a bit out of sorts Freddie lad, but a spot of light training and some time in the stands will be perfect preparation for the Boks or France'.

As for confidence. He's a pro player. He should have the mental fortitude to take his chances, and if it doesn't work out bounce back.

Until we start fielding robots it doesn't work like that though. Stuart Broad's batting is a classic, if extreme, case study of what can happen when confidence goes from one bad experience.

The mental side of any sport is huge. The best players are generally the toughest between the ears too, but just because someone's paid doesn't mean they don't have the same fears or anxieties as anyone else (sports psychologists notwithstanding). And just because someone *looks* confident, doesn't mean they actually are. In Smith's case he'll have a point to prove which can be both a positive and a negative force. Some of the criticism directed at him is that he's tried too hard to make things happen in his usual position - so how's he going to react to the expectations in an unfamiliar position? There's potential upside, but risks to both team and player too.

I'm not against the concept of Smith at FB, but this is not an ideal time for experimentation. That should be done at Quins expense 😁 (and will be the type of request that's made when central contracts are around….).
 
We're allowed to critique a player with 100 caps, just because he's been good in the past and is England's record scorer doesn't mean he should be void of criticism. We don't want him to play a loose game, but he can't even execute the basics, and the game has changed throughout his career and he's struggled to reach those levels.

That's a fair comment right?. It's not personal. It's definitely not about 'class' as Haskell puts it. I wish Farrell was awesome as a player as his mentality is spot on. Unfortunately he is, in general England rugby fan consensus, not good enough right now.

I know you want to bite every time someone mentions Farrell, and expect us to back England no matter what. It's getting tiresome in match threads atm imo.
Tiresome that I don't agree with people's assessments 😂
 

Latest posts

Top