[RWC2023 QF3] England vs Fiji (15/10/2023)

[Saintjay]

Weird if anyone thinks everyone associates working class as having a northern accent. Because other than that Farrell isn't working class based on money, status etc. Nobody i know things Farrell is working class. Most England fans want Edwards or Faz senior back with England. So it doesn't fit with the class thing.

Maybe they think we all hate Farrell because he's normally at home looking after a whippit, wearing a flat cap, and eating bread and dripping. Yet adored Will Carling because he's well spoken and smashed a princess (allegedly)

 

[Grizwald]

I wonder what approach Borthwick will take after the RWC in terms of transitioning the old lads out and new lads in.

Listening on Rugby Union weekly it's an assumption that 8 possibly more won't be around until the RWC. Personally I'd rather see a full clean out an accept the results that come.

Only Arundell is going to be exempt from the non-English based players as it stands so there's a few more squad positions there too.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If Daly is playing, which I understand he is, he can also step in at 15 in D, given that he has much more experience there than Smith with the England. And before people get on his case, I think Daly is pretty decent and turns up well. I suspect that this is SBs plan. Have Daly support Smith in D, and have smith there to add more cut and thrust to our attack. Which does make sense. Is Steward better than both Daly and Smith, I suppose in the air, due to height, yes, but that's about it. Fiji don't have a great kicking game, and I'm not sure they'll fall for the bait of kicking it at Smith. Their best bet is to run the ball. If England are to win this game we need a much better defensive performance, and to win the collisions in contact, slow the ball down and fight to win it back. Starve Fiji of the fast ball they crave, and we should be fine. Pressure is on our back row, and centres, to insure they are tight and tackling well.

TBH Daly's D has never been his strong suit. Plus he's also looked out of form in this tournament, albeit we've not really been playing to his strengths.

The midfield defence is a key point. They'll hit whatever's right in front of them well enough but the bigger challenge is holding pattern and being in the right place at the right time. Against Samoa our midfield leaked like a sieve and if the mooted unit of Farrell, Tuilagi and Marchant is correct, if they have ever started a test together it hasn't been in 2023.

 

[BPM]

The reply was about a post on comments Haskell had made

It seemed that you were presenting your own opinion.

FWIW, I absolutely don't agree with personal, 'venomous' comments on social media. I'm not at all sure Haskell should be the one holding the moral ground in that regard …

 

[Duct Tape]

Leaked team from the Telegraph:

Marler
George
Sinkler
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Earl

Care
Ford
Steward
Tuilagi
Marchant
Arundell
Smith

Dan
Genge
Cole
Martin
Underhill
Youngs
Lawrence
Daly

(Just kidding.)

Shame it's not real. That would be an excellent lineup against Fiji and if they are so lucky as to make it through, to their SF opponent. Watching all of the WC matches again on Peacock streaming, it seems England need centers to be real breakthrough threats to generate some offense and give the wingers more room when (if) the ball ever makes it out wide (notwithstanding the Chile game and Arundell's walk in tries). Ford looks to be a better 10 and probably more consistent kicker right now. Then there's defense where some, including Farrell, have not been good on the tackle. Re: Smith, they clearly need a spark, and IMO catching the kicked ball is not really that hard (unless height is an issue on contested catches) but I'm worried about his open field tackling on big Fiji backs and loose forwards.

 

[HamJan]

2021 shambles? Losing 2-1 to SA by a late kick is a shambles now?

Also he had a job, he just didnt do very well at it hahahaha

2019 RWC Wales were very good to watch, as they were during their grand slam and being ranked 1st in the world, I have no words lol

Not true, you have lots of words but they make no sense. The rugby played by the Lions in the 2021 tests was awful, except when Biggar was injured and Finn came on, and then we looked like a side who could play decent rugby. When he returned to the Chiefs post Lions, they didn't want him because they found a coach who would coach and win games in the modern era. What was his record at Chiefs? Played 9 lost 9.
In 2019, Wales only game plan was for the 10 to kick high and see what happened. Seem familiar? Don't forget, Wales came to Twickenham for the RWC warm ups as the number one side in the world and got turned over by England's second / third side. At RWC 2019 they owed their quarter final place to a moment of French madness and then went on to co produce one of the dullest semi finals in RWC history.
Not for me thanks.

 

[BPM]

I think that's stereotyping a bit.

It's not an either / or equation.

Fiji are much more professional than they were. If you're in their shoes you're seeing a small, inexperienced FB and a wing (if Daly plays there) who's notoriously average under the high ball. While they won't totally tear up their usual game plan, of course they're going to test them out and if they get some joy we may see more kicking than usual.

If it is a horse for course selection it's a very mixed message for Steward ahead of a potentially demanding game against excellent opposition. 'You're a bit out of sorts Freddie lad, but a spot of light training and some time in the stands will be perfect preparation for the Boks or France'.



Until we start fielding robots it doesn't work like that though. Stuart Broad's batting is a classic, if extreme, case study of what can happen when confidence goes from one bad experience.

The mental side of any sport is huge. The best players are generally the toughest between the ears too, but just because someone's paid doesn't mean they don't have the same fears or anxieties as anyone else (sports psychologists notwithstanding). And just because someone *looks* confident, doesn't mean they actually are. In Smith's case he'll have a point to prove which can be both a positive and a negative force. Some of the criticism directed at him is that he's tried too hard to make things happen in his usual position - so how's he going to react to the expectations in an unfamiliar position? There's potential upside, but risks to both team and player too.

I'm not against the concept of Smith at FB, but this is not an ideal time for experimentation. That should be done at Quins expense (and will be the type of request that's made when central contracts are around….).

Possibly a bit … although I would definitely fear Fiji's running game more than their kicking game.

I totally agree that now is not the time for experimentation. However, picking Smith at 15 at least suggests we want Fiji to worry about our threats rather than trying to cater to theirs.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I wonder what approach Borthwick will take after the RWC in terms of transitioning the old lads out and new lads in.

Listening on Rugby Union weekly it's an assumption that 8 possibly more won't be around until the RWC. Personally I'd rather see a full clean out an accept the results that come.

Only Arundell is going to be exempt from the non-English based players as it stands so there's a few more squad positions there too.

On age Cole, Lawes, Marler, Care & Youngs will almost certainly go. Possibly Farrell, Manu and George, all 32, if they've had enough or SB takes the decision out of their hands.

30+ very best days behind: Binny, Daly, Sinckler. Some may even argue Ford.

Ineligible in France: Marchant, Ribbans, Willis.

Generally underforming: Quite a few.

So, a lot of scope for change. Which will be welcome but not a panacea in itself.

If this had been a successful team (irrespective of what happens over the next couple of weeks), phasing would be sensible. But it hasn't so there might be support for radical change albeit I don't think the English fan base would live with too much bread today for jam tomorrow. Whatever approach the coach takes won't be right….

 

[Scotty]

Leaked team from the Telegraph:

Marler
George
Sinkler
Itoje
Chessum
Ludlam
Curry
Earl

Care
Ford
Steward
Tuilagi
Marchant
Arundell
Smith

Dan
Genge
Cole
Martin
Underhill
Youngs
Lawrence
Daly

(Just kidding.)

You got me until no Faz in the 23...good one though i like that team.

 

[BPM]

On age Cole, Lawes, Marler, Care & Youngs will almost certainly go. Possibly Farrell, Manu and George, all 32, if they've had enough or SB takes the decision out of their hands.

30+ very best days behind: Binny, Daly, Sinckler. Some may even argue Ford.

Ineligible in France: Marchant, Ribbans, Willis.

Generally underforming: Quite a few.

So, a lot of scope for change. Which will be welcome but not a panacea in itself.

If this had been a successful team (irrespective of what happens over the next couple of weeks), phasing would be sensible. But it hasn't so there might be support for radical change albeit I don't think the English fan base would live with too much bread today for jam tomorrow. Whatever approach the coach takes won't be right….

Yeah I posted something similar in the squad thread. We'll likely be changing somewhere between 25 and 35% of the RWC squad mostly on age profile and ineligibility.

For better or worse, that kind of forces a bit of a revolution.

 

[Saintjay]

Stating the obvious if we kick to Fiji and they run at us we could have a problem. I'm not sure with a large, quick Fijian back three running at the FB Smith's defence is better than Freddie Steward. Other than beaing a speed bump till another tackler arrives.

Having Smith could be good if we are planning on keeping the ball. Which isn't Borthwick's default. No having the ball, forcing errors is. So I'm at a loss as to Borthwick's thinking / tactics for this one. We are not exactly going full lord of the rings 'Thou shall not pass' in defence or at the level of SA and Ireland. Nor are we Keegans Newcastle with 'You get two and we'll get three".

 

[BrokenWing]

Weird if Hask thinks everyone associates working class as having a northern accent. Because other than that Farrell isn't working class based on money, status etc. Nobody i know things Farrell is working class. Most England fans want Edwards or Faz senior back with England. So it doesn't fit with what Hask says

Maybe he thinks we all hate Farrell because he's normally at home looking after a whippit, wearing a flat cap, and eating bread and dripping. Yet adored Will Carling because he's well spoken and smashed a princess (allegedly)

It was actually Horgan that came out with the class thing

 

[Saintjay]

It was actually Horgan that came out with the class thing

Edited to reflect that. Ty

 

[ageingback23]

Could you tell me what is, I can't think of a single area of particular strength that any above us in the world rankings would be concerned with.

Heading the ball.

 

[ageingback23]

It's still a 13 and a 10 at 14 and 15 though.

As a former forward, I have little real understanding of what the floppy hair brigade actually do, but it seems to matter quite a bit which one goes where. I wonder if Sniff Bostik feels the same?

Depends how much to a legend you are old boy. For example, I was excellent on the bus to the game, and in the bar after the game (less said about the actual game the better) so backs can be very adaptable.

 

[ageingback23]

Weird if anyone thinks everyone associates working class as having a northern accent. Because other than that Farrell isn't working class based on money, status etc. Nobody i know things Farrell is working class. Most England fans want Edwards or Faz senior back with England. So it doesn't fit with the class thing.

Maybe they think we all hate Farrell because he's normally at home looking after a whippit, wearing a flat cap, and eating bread and dripping. Yet adored Will Carling because he's well spoken and smashed a princess (allegedly)

Not sure Rory Underwood likes being called a princess.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

The RFA were under orders to hire an English coach. Someone non English wasn't an option.

 

[dirty harry]

Not true, you have lots of words but they make no sense. The rugby played by the Lions in the 2021 tests was awful, except when Biggar was injured and Finn came on, and then we looked like a side who could play decent rugby. When he returned to the Chiefs post Lions, they didn't want him because they found a coach who would coach and win games in the modern era. What was his record at Chiefs? Played 9 lost 9.
In 2019, Wales only game plan was for the 10 to kick high and see what happened. Seem familiar? Don't forget, Wales came to Twickenham for the RWC warm ups as the number one side in the world and got turned over by England's second / third side. At RWC 2019 they owed their quarter final place to a moment of French madness and then went on to co produce one of the dullest semi finals in RWC history.
Not for me thanks.

Hahahaha

Aaaaand just like that I rate your opinion as much as I rate Megan Markles in the same subject from here on in...

I mean what's not for you, the coach with the most wins in RWC's, the most successful coach in Wales, Lions and 6N history?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Always wild when Welsh fans think everyone else should like Gatland

Outside of Woodward I can't think of another coach as universally disliked as him
EJ and Rassie making good strides in that direction though tbf

Wouldn't want him coaching England then, now, or ever

 

[dirty harry]

Always wild when Welsh fans think everyone else should like Gatland

Outside of Woodward I can't think of another coach as universally disliked as him
EJ and Rassie making good strides in that direction though tbf

Wouldn't want him coaching England then, now, or ever

I didnt say anyone had to like him, but the claims made were embarrassingly ludicrous.

21 lions was a shambles
2019 GS champs and ranked number 1 in the world teams only gameplan was to 'kick high and see what happened'
Wales v SA was the dullest semi final in history.

Lol

Dislike Gats all you like, and I get it he is decisive sometimes, but dont embarrass yourself by making claims against literally the most successful NH coach of all time!